VideoHelp Forum
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2
1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 56
Thread
  1. Are there any older stand alone DVD Players with HDMI out that doesn't have the Cinavia firmware that will play my back up DVD's? Something I might find on e bay for example?
    Quote Quote  
  2. Member olyteddy's Avatar
    Join Date: Dec 2005
    Location: United States
    Search Comp PM
    DVD Player? Most of them don't have and probably never will have Cinavia. The ones that most likely will get it are made by Sony, one of the biggest proponents of Cinavia.
    Quote Quote  
  3. Member
    Join Date: Oct 2004
    Location: Freedonia
    Search Comp PM
    My Momitsu region free BluRay player (no longer sold in the USA sadly, but possibly still available in Europe under the Hitecker brand) laughs at Cinavia. I have personally tested this with a BluRay backup from a Cinavia protected disc.

    As olyteddy says, I would most definitely stay away from Sony. And my experience is that Samsung hates its consumers almost as much as Sony does, so I'd avoid them too. Off the top of my head I have no evidence to support this or disprove it, but Pioneer and Philips have generally been pretty consumer friendly with their DVD and BluRay players in the past and they might be unlikely to support Cinavia in firmware.
    Quote Quote  
  4. Member fritzi93's Avatar
    Join Date: Nov 2003
    Location: U.S.
    Search Comp PM
    I recall recently reading that LG decided they weren't going to play along with Cinavia. I wish I'd saved the link. Can anyone confirm LG Blu-Ray players do not honor Cinavia?

    [EDIT] BTW, I sure won't buy another Sony BD player. I have two (older, Cinavia-free)) Sony BDP-S360s and they work fine, but I'm never gonna update the firmware. Don't need to, I play backups on them. Yeah Cinavia is Sony's baby.
    Last edited by fritzi93; 28th Jan 2012 at 13:41.
    Pull! Bang! Darn!
    Quote Quote  
  5. Super Moderator Super Moderator johns0's Avatar
    Join Date: Jun 2002
    Location: canada
    Search Comp PM
    Some lg blu-ray player are cinavia compliant.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinavia
    I think,therefore i am a hamster.
    Quote Quote  
  6. Member Meritocracy's Avatar
    Join Date: Jan 2004
    Location: Earth
    Search Comp PM
    More like, some LG Blu-Ray player firmware were cinavia compliant. That was the case, but then as firtzi93 states, they apparently decided to drop it. (Implementation issues)?

    Regardless, all recent (a year or longer) LG firmware updates have not been cinavia compliant. Not to say it won't be reinserted in the future.
    What exactly is rotten in Denmark?
    Quote Quote  
  7. Member netmask56's Avatar
    Join Date: Sep 2005
    Location: Sydney, Australia
    Search Comp PM
    Don't know if Soniq is available in North America but mine certainly plays both BluRay and DVD totally region free. It seems to able to play anything from the proverbial piece of string to the latest Blu Ray releases. Cost au$75
    TheVoiceIsAnotherPerson ~ BeyonWiz DP-P1 and T3 PVR's ~ Popcorn C200 ~ Samsung ES8000 65" LED TV ~ Windows 7 ~ Yamaha RX-A1030 http://www.openwiz.org/wiki/ProjectX
    Quote Quote  
  8. Member Seeker47's Avatar
    Join Date: Jul 2005
    Location: drifting, somewhere on the Sea of Cynicism
    Search Comp PM
    Pricey, I know, but where does Oppo stand on this ? I think they have possibly been more resistant to this sort of thing in the past.
    When in Las Vegas, don't miss the Pinball Hall of Fame Museum http://www.pinballmuseum.org/ -- over 150 tables from 6+ decades of this gradually disappearing American art form.
    Quote Quote  
  9. My Samsung BD 5700 blu-ray player is cinavia compliant. and most BD xxxx
    Quote Quote  
  10. Super Moderator Super Moderator johns0's Avatar
    Join Date: Jun 2002
    Location: canada
    Search Comp PM
    Just found out my sony bdp-s380 is cinavia free with the latest firmware as of today.
    I think,therefore i am a hamster.
    Quote Quote  
  11. Member
    Join Date: Sep 2011
    Location: United States
    Search Comp PM
    farfet, Are you sure yours is cinavia compliant? Because my Samsung BD 5700 blu-ray player isn't, Bought mine Black Friday in 2011, And never updated the firmware and never will because thats where they get you.
    Quote Quote  
  12. tarzan54, yes mine is, bought it her in Canada February 2012, any chance you can send me your firmware for Samsung BD 5700 or tell me which one is it
    thank you
    farfet
    Quote Quote  
  13. Member Seeker47's Avatar
    Join Date: Jul 2005
    Location: drifting, somewhere on the Sea of Cynicism
    Search Comp PM
    I suppose my Samsung BD-6500 (which is not a 3D model, and slightly predates them) must have the Cinavia . . . and if it did not originally, one of the several firmware updates that came down the pipeline would have added it. Fellow VH members had suggested I could set the router to deny these coming through, but there is a good chance this would have crippled the streaming Netflix, Youtube, etc. features of this player, which changed or got updated periodically with these newer firmware releases. So, they've really got their foot pressed down on your neck.

    I'm wondering what the practical impact of the Cinavia might be, since the only BD discs I've played so far are strictly legit, official releases ? Does it mean that if (in the future) I try to backup a Blu-Ray, or modify it such as without some unwanted content and the copy protection, or make an MKV conversion from one, the player will reject it ?

    I don't use Blu-Ray enough to justify the cost of doing this, but if the above is true and if I did make a lot more use of it, that would be enough reason for me to give them the one-finger salute by getting an Oppo.
    When in Las Vegas, don't miss the Pinball Hall of Fame Museum http://www.pinballmuseum.org/ -- over 150 tables from 6+ decades of this gradually disappearing American art form.
    Quote Quote  
  14. Member
    Join Date: Sep 2011
    Location: United States
    Search Comp PM
    farfet, I don't know how to get the firmware from it but if I fiqure it out I will send it to you, Also I don't know if you can put an older firmware on a player that has the new firmware and my understanding is that all blu-ray players made starting in febuary 2012 will have the cinavia protection, It could also be that Canada has different restrictions for their players then here in United States.
    Quote Quote  
  15. Super Moderator Super Moderator johns0's Avatar
    Join Date: Jun 2002
    Location: canada
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by Seeker47 View Post

    I'm wondering what the practical impact of the Cinavia might be, since the only BD discs I've played so far are strictly legit, official releases ? Does it mean that if (in the future) I try to backup a Blu-Ray, or modify it such as without some unwanted content and the copy protection, or make an MKV conversion from one, the player will reject it ? .
    If you make backups of blu-ray with cinavia and try to play the backups on a cinavia enabled blu-ray player the audio will mute after a predetermined time,could be 2 minutes or 20,you will get a text message stating that cinavia was detected on a copy.
    I think,therefore i am a hamster.
    Quote Quote  
  16. Member Seeker47's Avatar
    Join Date: Jul 2005
    Location: drifting, somewhere on the Sea of Cynicism
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by johns0 View Post
    If you make backups of blu-ray with cinavia and try to play the backups on a cinavia enabled blu-ray player the audio will mute after a predetermined time,could be 2 minutes or 20,you will get a text message stating that cinavia was detected on a copy.
    A backup made with something like DVDFab, which may be able to remove stuff like Cinavia ?
    When in Las Vegas, don't miss the Pinball Hall of Fame Museum http://www.pinballmuseum.org/ -- over 150 tables from 6+ decades of this gradually disappearing American art form.
    Quote Quote  
  17. DVDFab can't remove the Cinavia but it can mark the disc in such a way that the player (the PS3, at least) thinks it's a genuine Blu-ray original.
    http://www.dvdfab.com/cinavia.htm
    Quote Quote  
  18. Member Seeker47's Avatar
    Join Date: Jul 2005
    Location: drifting, somewhere on the Sea of Cynicism
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    DVDFab can't remove the Cinavia but it can mark the disc in such a way that the player (the PS3, at least) thinks it's a genuine Blu-ray original.
    http://www.dvdfab.com/cinavia.htm
    I don't have a PS3, or any plans to get one.

    According to their list, my Samsung player has it. They also said that all players sold in the U.S. from this month on must have it. So much for Oppo I guess, and then why would any of us be willing to pay 500 bucks or more, if we still have to put up with this crap ? I also scanned down their list of protected discs. It is mostly weighted to the standard, abysmal Hollywood garbage, like the wretched "Green Hornet" remake. Very few good titles that I've seen or wanted to see. The end result of what they've done with Cinavia is that I will continue to de-emphasize the use of Blu-Ray, will not buy another player (although I have other rooms where they could be installed), and will not buy their discs. Otherwise, my spending habits would have placed me in their most-desired demographic. I will also encourage others to do the same. Is that what they want ? Rather counter-productive, wouldn't you say ?

    Meanwhile, Fab says they are continuing to work on this, and I wouldn't place any large wagers against their eventual success. (Maybe AnyDVD is working on this as well ? One can only hope so.)
    When in Las Vegas, don't miss the Pinball Hall of Fame Museum http://www.pinballmuseum.org/ -- over 150 tables from 6+ decades of this gradually disappearing American art form.
    Quote Quote  
  19. Member MOVIEGEEK's Avatar
    Join Date: Mar 2002
    Location: CA,USA
    Search Comp PM
    Maybe if Hollywood would produce quality movies their disc sales would improve, the studios still think everyone is a pirate and putting more copy-protection on the discs will improve sales. According to this list the vast majority of players do not have Cinavia, Cinavia is on some 2010 and newer films(mainly Sony Pictures and Columbia):

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinavia#Bluray_players.2Fmedia_players_that_DO_NOT_contain_Cinavia

    I now know which studios NOT to buy from.
    Last edited by MOVIEGEEK; 18th Feb 2012 at 12:31.
    Quote Quote  
  20. Member ron spencer's Avatar
    Join Date: May 2005
    Location: Ish-ka-bibble
    Search Comp PM
    Some good news:

    Since Oppo has come out with the statement, let me also add some inputs I received at CES:


    1. Cinavia is ONLY required if you submit your 'player' to the BDA for licensing after Feb 1st. If your player was licensed before Feb 1st and you decide to sell it anytime (even next year), then, there is no need to implement Cinavia.

    2. Some players licensed after Feb 1st may still escape without implementing Cinavia. They can claim while submitting that Cinavia is implemented. BDA issues license after putting the player through the certification process (basically run some tests). However, getting a particular test stream into the certification test is a long drawn out process. Some of the industry insiders told me (off the record, obviously) that the Cinavia testing test streams might take 6 - 8 months or more to be officially added to the certification process. So, even Blu-ray players without Cinavia could get certified by the BDA in that time frame. Obviously, big name players like Sony and Samsung aren't going to do that, but I fully expect small name manufacturers to skimp on Cinavia just for the licensing costs.
    __________________

    Ganesh T S
    Sr. Editor, AnandTech Inc.
    link:

    http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1559005&postcount=1458


    Seems like NOT ALL players will have it after all....YMMV.
    'Do I look absolutely divine and regal, and yet at the same time very pretty and rather accessible?' - Queenie
    Quote Quote  
  21. Member
    Join Date: Jul 2012
    Location: Detroit
    Search PM
    "but I'm never gonna update the firmware. Don't need to, I play backups on them. Yeah Cinavia is Sony's baby"

    You need to know more about Cinavia such as, it can update your hardware directly from the disc. So, even if you don't have your player on the www network, your firmware could be updated from a cinavia encoded disc....
    Yea, it's that sophisticated.
    Quote Quote  
  22. Member TreeTops's Avatar
    Join Date: May 2010
    Location: Oregon
    Search Comp PM
    Heaven help us if that is true!
    Quote Quote  
  23. Member
    Join Date: Jul 2012
    Location: Detroit
    Search PM
    Actually BD+ together with Cinavia DRM may have the execution code... Of course my knowledge on this subject was learned from reading Wikipedia.org on BD+ capabilities:

    "BD+ is effectively a virtual machine embedded in authorized players. It allows content providers to include executable programs on Blu-ray Discs. Such programs can:[7]
    examine the host environment, to see if the player has been tampered with. Every licensed playback device manufacturer must provide the BD+ licensing authority with memory footprints that identify their devices.
    verify that the player's keys have not been changed.
    execute native code, possibly to patch an otherwise insecure system.
    transform the audio and video output. Parts of the content will not be viewable without letting the BD+-program repair it.
    If a playback device manufacturer finds that its devices have been hacked, it can potentially release BD+-code that detects and circumvents the vulnerability. These programs can then be included in all new disc releases.[8]
    The specifications of the BD+ virtual machine are only officially available to licensed device manufacturers. A list of licensed adopters is available from the BD+ website.[9] Both SlySoft and members of the Doom9 forum have reverse engineered the virtual machine specification, however."

    So, I can't actually say that I have verified the code nor used a scope to analize the data / waveforms.
    Quote Quote  
  24. Member fritzi93's Avatar
    Join Date: Nov 2003
    Location: U.S.
    Search Comp PM
    I must say I'm skeptical. It would be quite a trick to foist a Cinavia update from a movie-only *backup* disc when during decryption/ripping the following are performed by default:

    -Remove AACS
    -Remove BD+
    -Remove BD+ Firmware Warning
    -Remove RC (Region Code)
    -Remove BD-Live
    -Remove UOPs

    You can deselect any of the above settings, depending on your Blu-Ray decrypter, but why would you?
    Pull! Bang! Darn!
    Quote Quote  
  25. Member
    Join Date: Jul 2012
    Location: Detroit
    Search PM
    Yes, I agree we must be carefull! If avoiding player updates, don't play OEM discs, only use movie-only *backup* discs in that player.
    Quote Quote  
  26. Member Seeker47's Avatar
    Join Date: Jul 2005
    Location: drifting, somewhere on the Sea of Cynicism
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by JohnRambo View Post
    Yes, I agree we must be carefull! If avoiding player updates, don't play OEM discs, only use movie-only *backup* discs in that player.
    That would become such a flaming pain in the rear that -- for me -- it almost negates any value to bothering with Blu-Ray in the first place. (And here I was contemplating the expensive Oppo again, because I'm disgusted with the dumbed down and locked down limited features of my Samsung player. It really gets to be a drag, putting in a PAL disc or a RW disc, only to remember "Oh wait, it doesn't play those. Have to take this upstairs to the setup with the DVD player.")

    Anyway, even if you were correct, certain players have released various firmwares over time, that have been available for download. In that situation, what's to stop you from re-flashing your player (back) to the state it was in, before some Cinavia movie disc did its dirty work ?

    Sony and friends can go **** themselves. I'm not going to play their game, and if there was absolutely no way to hack one's self out of it, I'd go find another game, rather than toss one more dime in their direction. Blu-Ray has always seemed highly expendable to me.
    When in Las Vegas, don't miss the Pinball Hall of Fame Museum http://www.pinballmuseum.org/ -- over 150 tables from 6+ decades of this gradually disappearing American art form.
    Quote Quote  
  27. Member
    Join Date: Jan 2007
    Location: United States
    Search Comp PM
    i don't have BR disc player and guess I won't be buying one
    just yesterday i got my First ever cinavia warning with dfab while backing up a std DvD
    the movie "wrath of titans"

    the PC backup plays find, i haven't burned a new disc yet
    guess i will try that later today and see if it plays in my phillips up convert DVD player
    Quote Quote  
  28. Member Seeker47's Avatar
    Join Date: Jul 2005
    Location: drifting, somewhere on the Sea of Cynicism
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by theewizard View Post
    i don't have BR disc player and guess I won't be buying one
    just yesterday i got my First ever cinavia warning with dfab while backing up a std DvD
    the movie "wrath of titans"

    the PC backup plays find, i haven't burned a new disc yet
    guess i will try that later today and see if it plays in my phillips up convert DVD player
    So, they're trying to migrate this Cinavia crap back to DVDs now, as well ? Based on their track records, I'm sure Fab and AnyDVD will clean their clocks.
    When in Las Vegas, don't miss the Pinball Hall of Fame Museum http://www.pinballmuseum.org/ -- over 150 tables from 6+ decades of this gradually disappearing American art form.
    Quote Quote  
  29. Member
    Join Date: Oct 2004
    Location: Freedonia
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by Seeker47 View Post
    Originally Posted by theewizard View Post
    i don't have BR disc player and guess I won't be buying one
    just yesterday i got my First ever cinavia warning with dfab while backing up a std DvD
    the movie "wrath of titans"

    the PC backup plays find, i haven't burned a new disc yet
    guess i will try that later today and see if it plays in my phillips up convert DVD player
    So, they're trying to migrate this Cinavia crap back to DVDs now, as well ? Based on their track records, I'm sure Fab and AnyDVD will clean their clocks.
    Cinavia on DVDs has been known for some time, it's just less common than on BDs. Most studios won't pay what is costs. This is interesting in that this is a Warner Brothers release. In the past Warner has not been known for using extra protection on their discs. I'm not aware of them even using the bad sector DVD protection that Disney and Sony and others have used.

    Nobody anywhere has yet to find a way to defeat it. The geniuses who look into these things have a pretty good understanding of how it works, but nobody has yet come up with a tool that will defeat it. Based on what I know, I speculate that there will be 2 possible methods to get around it.
    1) The soundtrack will have to be re-encoded with a filter to strip out the frequencies that Cinavia appears to be using. Purists are going to scream about that, but there will not be any other way to get rid of it.
    2) There might be some vector of attack against the Cinavia software itself where a false signal of some kind can be successfully sent to it to cause it to treat the rip as not being encoded with Cinavia.

    I'm not real optimistic about this. Doom9 was pretty grim about BD+ and that eventually got cracked when someone figured out they could examine computer memory to gain an understanding of how it was working, but people have been looking at this for a long time now and I'm not aware of any progress on it.
    Quote Quote  
  30. Member
    Join Date: Jan 2007
    Location: United States
    Search Comp PM
    dfab flagged it and the warning popped up said the backup might not play on a ps3
    don't have a PS3, and my 2.5yr old phillips up convert player apparently
    does not support ciniava , so far i'm in the clear
    i burned a backup and it plays just find on player
    Quote Quote  



Similar Threads