What happended to Dolby TrueHD

[ron spencer]

Pretty much every Bluray now is DTS-HD....what happened to TrueHD? Seems like DTS is now defacto standard.

[bruce73]

Maybe because DTS-MA has a core track, while TrueHD does not and this makes it more efficient? That's purely a guess.

[jman98]

Maybe because DTS-MA has a core track, while TrueHD does not and this makes it more efficient? That's purely a guess.

This is technically true about the lack of a core AC3 file. However, I think that everything that can deal with TrueHD has the ability to produce an AC3 compatible core file from it, so I don't think this is the real reason. It's just a guess but the American public specifically (and perhaps people in other countries as well) has this false belief that "DTS = best possible sound ever. Dolby = lossy crap". Studies have shown that in blind listening tests when 2 sounds exactly the same are played for a listener but one is louder, most people perceive the louder one as being of higher quality. DTS exploits this to perfection. The American public also perceives that EVERYTHING including mono films from 60+ years ago, has to be in 5.1 audio or it's "crap" so you should have an idea for the kind of contempt I have for the general public here. I think the studios are just giving the consumer what they want.

[fritzi93]

Yes, Clown_BD and tsMuxer, for instance, have no problem producing an AC3 track from TrueHD. Clown_BD lists TrueHD tracks as having AC3 "embedded", and gives the option to extract the "core"; tsMuxer gives the option to "downconvert", so I'm not entirely clear if there's a distinction there.

Anyway, it seems many people are absolutely convinced DTS-MA is better. You see it all the time on many posts here. They won't even consider using AC3. I think you have to have golden ears and one hell of a setup ($) to tell the difference. Apart, that is from the "enhancements" in DTS, and I suspect you could make AC3 sound identical (volume and maybe equalizer?) with a little fiddling. I'd just as soon have the audio "unenhanced". [shrugs]

[ron spencer]

So it is marketing then...both have "HD" in their names...weird though. With DVD, AC3 was always there with DTS being only on a small amount of discs. Now DTS-HD is on pretty much every BluRay with minimal input from anything Dolby. Perhaps DTS just paid more to get on BluRay. Interesting the turn though.

[paulw]

Here's the differences between them.
http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-13817_7-6462511-4.html

Have a look at this pod cast and comments.

http://www.htguys.com/podcasts/2011/7/15/podcast-487-next-generation-audio.html

[yoda313]

Perhaps DTS just paid more to get on BluRay. Interesting the turn though.

Marketing and "gimmicks" aside it might just have to do with the whole space issue.

You remember those super bit dvds that had the dts tracks on them? If I remember right those were stripped down as far as things like bonuses and commentary tracks so they could up the video bitrate and include a dts track.

Now with the available space on bluray tracks I think its easier for studios to put dts-ma tracks on them without necessarily sacrificing any picture quality or limiting bonus materials. Also if a studio really want to max out the quality on the movie and still have bonus they can add a second disc with all that stuff and up the bitrate on the video and still have room for a dts-ma track and commentary.

That is just my take on it.

But I'm sure the dts company pushed heavily to get its teeth into the market more this time around.

---------

A side note - vudu and I think netflix now have 5.1 dolby digital plus so you can have digital surround with streaming video. Is there any plans to do that with DTS? Or is it not possible with the current bandwidth in broadband these days? Would it make a difference over 5.1 dd plus?

Edit - I also thought of something else:

at least while bluray players still could output 1080i over component all you had to do was dub to a hauppauge hdpvr and you'd have a damn near perfect dub of the bluray. But ONLY IF IT HAD A DOLBY 5.1 TRACK. The thing won't record dts.

You think this might be an industry deal to stem that kind of potential piracy? I know you can easily rip with dvdfabdecrypter and anydvdhd but is this one way they are trying to thwart this type of copying until the full component downconversion is underway?

By the way I haven't tested that with my ps3 lately with any bluray titles but are all bluray players now outputting sd over component?

[jman98]

yoda313 - Just speculation here but Hauppauge's inability to record DTS may simply be a licensing thing. I have the impression that Dolby offers pretty good licensing terms on their technology. However, a lot of devices in the past failed to do anything with DTS and I suspect that it was all over money. Maybe DTS has made their licensing fees for DTS-HD at a lower price than they did for plain DTS in the past.

Hollywood's goal is in the next few years (I don't remember the exact date) that nothing will output HD over any kind of unprotected output such as component. This is specifically to prevent the kind of low tech brute force copying that you mentioned. Like with DVD there are better ways to go to copy BluRay discs than to just use a recorder of some kind and record it in real time while it plays, but Hollywood is really obsessed with stopping this type of thing.

I am only speculating but I suspect that Netflix will not offer DTS audio for streaming because of bit rate and compatibility issues. I am hardly a gigantic consumer of their streaming service but when I have used it I have not personally encountered anything but stereo audio but I have read that some choices do offer 5.1 streaming audio.

[yoda313]

I have read that some choices do offer 5.1 streaming audio.

Yes when I had it last year for awhile there were some on the ps3 that had 5.1. Problem was you couldn't search for movies with 5.1 that I could tell.

At least with VUDU EVERY movie that has a 5.1 track can be watched with 5.1 (I don't know about any "classic" movies they may offer that may be so old as to not have a 5.1 mix). THey have three tiers of watching - sd, hd 720 and hd 1080p. As far as I know all levels can do 5.1 but I don't know for a fact if sd is limited to stereo or if it does 5.1 as well.

(I don't remember the exact date) that nothing will output HD over any kind of unprotected output such as component. This is specifically to prevent the kind of low tech brute force copying that you mentioned.

Yes I was wondering when that switch is.

Now is that via the player itself via firmware updates or is that on the disc? What mechanism will kick in and say no hd over component? Are there early bluray discs that don't have this clock on them and will always output hd over component? Or is that hardwired into the player itself so that at x date it will lock that off to sd only?

Also would there be a discovery of some clock trick to tell a bluray player its on its "born on" date and still output hd? I don't know if all bluray players have a clock for that matter. My only settop bluray player is a ps3 that does have a clock that could be manipulated.

Also what about landlocking it off the grid so it won't dial home? I mean lets say you have a bluray player from few years ago thats never been online and never been upgraded. Would that theoritically still output hd over component after the switch? ---I guess that after a time it would stop playing newer discs if its not updated frequently.

Hauppauge's inability to record DTS may simply be a licensing thing. I have the impression that Dolby offers pretty good licensing terms on their technology.

Thats probably true. I imagine if it was the same price as dolby they would have added the ability and boasted they could record dolby AND dts.

THough another side might be they figured the thing would be used more for cable/sat/fios hd box dubbing than bluray dubbing. I don't know of any home dvr box that would output dts. Not saying there isn't one that does but surely its not common thus hauppauge wouldn't look into it.

THough if you think about it I think a lot of ps3 games come with dts now and I don't know if the hdpvr would pick up 5.1 if the games also don't have a dd track. Not sure on that one. THat would be hit or miss I guess.

but I suspect that Netflix will not offer DTS audio for streaming because of bit rate and compatibility issues.

Bit rate I could see but what would the compatibility issues be? You either have a dts receiver or you don't.

Are you suggesting the stupidity of the general consumer who would click on the dts title and yell and complain that they can't hear anything only to find out they don't have a dts receiver? I could see streaming services shying away from that battle from the stupid people who don't know what they have and don't have.

Thanks for the conversation jman98.

[Lathe]

Yes, Clown_BD and tsMuxer, for instance, have no problem producing an AC3 track from TrueHD. Clown_BD lists TrueHD tracks as having AC3 "embedded", and gives the option to extract the "core"; tsMuxer gives the option to "downconvert", so I'm not entirely clear if there's a distinction there.

Anyway, it seems many people are absolutely convinced DTS-MA is better. You see it all the time on many posts here. They won't even consider using AC3. I think you have to have golden ears and one hell of a setup ($) to tell the difference. Apart, that is from the "enhancements" in DTS, and I suspect you could make AC3 sound identical (volume and maybe equalizer?) with a little fiddling. I'd just as soon have the audio "unenhanced". [shrugs]

Wait a second...

This is like the SECOND comment where someone says that TSMuxeR DOES indeed recognize and process TrueHD, BUT... the last time I tried to add a TrueHD file to TSMuxeR it did NOT recognize it! (I have version 1.10.6)

How can this be...?

Thanks!

[enim]

Big Daddy Warner already accepted DTS as defacto standard since long followed by others.

[Selur]

This is like the SECOND comment where someone says that TSMuxeR DOES indeed recognize and process TrueHD, BUT... the last time I tried to add a TrueHD file to TSMuxeR it did NOT recognize it! (I have version 1.10.6)

How can this be...?

tsMuxeR only support the multiplexing of True-HD streams with an ac3 core.
Most people which say that tsMuxeR does not support true-hd, deleted the ac3 core (in example by multiplexing the combo-stream into a mkv file).
In theory it should be possible to take the .thd stream, reencode an ac3 stream, and use some audio authoring software which can create true-hd combo streams to create a new "ac3 core + true-hd"-combo stream which then could be multiplexed with tsMuxeR. Sadly I can't give you any advise which audio authoring software is capable to do this, since I never tried it.

Cu Selur

[enim]

tsMuxeR only support the multiplexing of True-HD streams with an ac3 core.

It seems like hybrid-master solution. It's fun to hang out with lots of masters here.
Is it same tsMuxer from SMARTLab we are talking about?
You know, i am jealous, how did you know that already?

[Lathe]

This is like the SECOND comment where someone says that TSMuxeR DOES indeed recognize and process TrueHD, BUT... the last time I tried to add a TrueHD file to TSMuxeR it did NOT recognize it! (I have version 1.10.6)

How can this be...?

tsMuxeR only support the multiplexing of True-HD streams with an ac3 core.
Most people which say that tsMuxeR does not support true-hd, deleted the ac3 core (in example by multiplexing the combo-stream into a mkv file).
In theory it should be possible to take the .thd stream, reencode an ac3 stream, and use some audio authoring software which can create true-hd combo streams to create a new "ac3 core + true-hd"-combo stream which then could be multiplexed with tsMuxeR. Sadly I can't give you any advise which audio authoring software is capable to do this, since I never tried it.

Cu Selur

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH...! Finally this makes sense! GEEZ, I thought I was going out of my mind (well, I likely am, but anyway...) Okay then. That is why a guide that I read the other day instructed using a program (can't remember the name of it right now, but I have it ) And he SPECIFICALLY said to run the .thd file through it and create a thd +ac3 file (Oh I think it was eac3to!) and THEN continue to mux it. NOW it all makes sense. Yes, in almost EVERY case I was working with an MKV file where the TrueHD file had already been muxed in it! Uh, a friend had helped me to back up some of my Blu-rays to MKV files...

THANK YOU so much for clarifying this

[Selur]

You know, i am jealous, how did you know that already?

ran into a BBC recoding some while ago which included latm coded aac, since I never ran into latm coded aac before I started googling a bit about what latm (= Low Overhead Audio Transport Multiplex) is and that it isn't so common, so most tools don't support it.
So far ffmpeg with it's bit stream filter is the most convenient way to extract latm aac streams to normal aac that I stumbled upon.

Is it same tsMuxer from SMARTLab we are talking about?

yes, at least that is the one I'm talking of (real shame this one isn't developed any more or made open source; since I know a bunch of small annoying problems which could be fixed easily if the source was available,..)

THANK YOU so much for clarifying this

you are welcome

Cu Selur

[enim]

yes, at least that is the one I'm talking of (real shame this one isn't developed any more or made open source; since I know a bunch of small annoying problems which could be fixed easily if the source was available,..)

SmartLab went to the bigger scale - Hardware Multiplexers and streaming. So small things does not matter to them. But, it does definitely matter to many people.

When the things are not open,I mean not open source, you know how to open it. don't you?
Please don't ask me know? coz I do not know either!

[Selur]

Never the less, it would be cool if they would open source tsMuxeR (could be hosted on github/googlecode/sourceforge/...), I'm quite confident, that there are a few other developers out there which could and would fix a few of the existing bugs and limitations.
As it is now, personally I more and more switch to ffmpeg with libbluray support for extracting, since it is one of the few cross-plattform tools which can handle ts/m2ts/mpls/... streams.

[El Heggunte]

Old threads serve me well

Pretty much every Bluray now is DTS-HD....what happened to TrueHD? Seems like DTS is now defacto standard.

Two guesses:

1) because Dolby Media Encoder is a MAC-only product ;

2) in the very-beginning, at least the Windows version of of the Meridian Lossless Packing program (a.k.a. WinMLP) had serious performance issues, here is a P.M. from a Doom9 habitué about the subject:

Re: About WinMLP...

To my knowledge, the software has never left Dolby. When we were using it, they actually sent us an entire computer with it pre-installed, and our user account on the machine didn't have any access to where the software was installed. They were very protective of it... We used it for a couple of weeks and then had to return the entire computer.

I don't know of anyone else that's even seen the software. They really wanted us to use TrueHD on the title we were working on, so they went out of their way to help us out... In the end we still ended up using DTS, Dolby just couldn't do seamless branching easily at that time, even with the PC version of the software. (It took forever to set up an encode, and I seem to remember it taking several hours to encode a single 45 minute TV episode. Multiply that by 3 seasons of the show and there was just no way we had the time to do it all... DTS could do it in about 30 minutes.)

[jman98]

VERY interesting, El Heggunte. I just assumed that DTS-HD became the standard because of a perception by the public that DTS is significantly better than AC3, that AC3 is a quality destroying POS product (I don't agree, but some do think that) and therefore DTS-HD must be better than TrueHD. I thought it might also be possible that DTS had simply made cheaper licenses available for DTS-HD to encourage its use. I had no idea that Dolby had deliberately shot themselves in the foot.

[El Heggunte]

Thanks for the compliment, jman98

I had no idea that Dolby had deliberately shot themselves in the foot.

Me neither. Bottom line is, when a big company doesn't want their own product to be competitive,
there isn't much anyone can do about it.

EDIT: Just confirming, source = http://www.blu-raystats.com/NewsLog/2010/01/15/dts-hd-master-audio-becoming-the-blu-ray-standard/ :

Posted in Commentary, Technology on January 15th, 2010 by Dave

.........

I talked to both Sony and Dolby at CES this year and got differing answers regarding the SPHE move to DTS-HD Master Audio.

Dolby stated that the work flow for titles with TrueHD and seamless branching had difficulties, which pushed some studios to use DTS-HD Master Audio for certain titles at least.

This may be a credible reason that we see DTS-HD Master Audio on the Warner release for Watchmen, which used seamless branching for the Maximum Movie Mode on the title.

However we are seeing DTS-HD Master audio listed for upcoming Warner titles like Poseidon and The Box, which seem like fairly standard releases.

Talking to Sony I got a very different answer – they said that the move to DTS-HD Master Audio was one of consumer preference measured by an internet poll.

Regardless of the reasons behind the moves, it is interesting to see the DTS codec now dominating the Blu-ray landscape with over 45% percent of the lossless audio Blu-ray releases, when at launch it looked like it simply wasn’t ready for prime time at all.

If you have any thoughts on this, feel free to add your comments.