Common pro video cameras c. 2002 (capturing-related!)

[moxiecat]

I am attempting to transfer a professional wedding VHS tape to either my DVD recorder or computer (either would be fine at this point). The video was shot in May 2002 by a professional videographer, who copied his edited video to VHS for the couple.

Here's the problem: the tape cannot be digitized.

If I hook my VCR directly to the TV set, the video from the VHS tape appears fine on the screen--perfectly stable. But when I hook it up to ANYTHING digital--DVD recorder, Canopus A-D converter, Mini DV camcorder, external TBC--the picture jitters and skips frames. I have even tried dubbing the original tape to another VHS or even a Hi8 tape, and the dubbed tape always plays fine right to the TV. But the same jitter/skipping/jumping even happens when I try to digitize the DUBBED tape too!

Obviously, there is something embedded in the video signal that causes every digitizing device to go haywire. But not being TOO technically oriented, I have no idea what that could be--or how to subvert it.

So I am trying to figure out what video format a professional videographer would have used to film a wedding back in 2002. DV? Mini DV? I think 2002 predates widespread HD use (right?). Naturally, the company is no longer in business, so I can't ask them directly. I don't know if figuring out the original recording format would even help--but I've tried so many methods to capture this video, that this is the one avenue I haven't explored.

If anyone has any ideas on how I could proceed with this tape, or about my question regarding common professional camcorders in 2002, please post. Thanks in advance.

[edDV]

It was probably DV format but that is irrelevant if the company can't be found. The contracting party should have required the source tapes be passed to them at conclusion of editing and final payment*. Standard practice in the wedding video business is the master tapes are kept by the videographer and copies must be purchased from him/her. The tape copies usually have copy protection.

Which Canopus device did you try? Some ADVC-100 models can be set to ignore some forms of copy protection.

Can the tapes be copied by an expert? Probably but expect to pay up.


* Or held in escrow by a third party in the event of business failure. If the business fails, the tapes go to the wedding party.

[moxiecat]

It's a Canopus ADVC-100 in fact. I also have tried a Datavideo TBC-100 and AVT-8710 in the chain, but they too add the jitter problem. Oddly, though, the internal TBCs on JVC and Panasonic S-VHS decks don't seem to affect the tape in this way (when hooked up straight to the TV). It's only when an external digital device--such as an external TBC, Canopus, etc.--is added between the VCR and TV that the problem starts.

I've transferred a number of my old copyrighted VHS tapes to DVD (for personal use!) over the years, and I've never run into a copy protection problem when using a TBC as part of the chain. Are there more robust forms of copy protection that a videographer might have added to a wedding video? (More robust than a Hollywood movie?)

But if it were copy protection, why would the dubs that were VHS-->VHS and VHS-->Hi8 have worked perfectly fine?

Your idea about copy protection makes me think, though. VHS copy protection relied on certain lines in the analog picture--correct? Since the digital device is where the problem occurs, I was guessing that maybe the digital converters can't correctly interpret the horizontal lines that are present in this analog tape signal. That might be why the digitized picture jitters and skips frames. (Does that theory make any sense?) This might or might not have something to do with the lines that hold the copy protection...or maybe some other type of horizontal lines?

Maybe I'm just grasping at straws at this point. I've just never seen such a baffling problem--and what kills me is that there is probably a technical reason why this is happening (since it happens on every device that digitizes the signal in some way) but I don't know enough to put together an answer.

[edDV]

I'm not all that familiar with modern analog copy protection schemes but most alter the sync pulses in ways that a fast lock TV can handle but confuses a copy device. But are you saying you can dub this tape to another tape without issue? Usually that wouldn't be possible if the tape had a copy protection scheme.

The early ADVC-100 units had a mode (hold silver button down 10-15 sec) that defeated Macrovision. This "feature" was removed starting in 2005.

[moxiecat]

Yep--I can dub this tape to other analog tapes with no problem whatsoever--and that's WITHOUT any external TBC. It's straight VHS to VHS or VHS to a Hi8 deck. So that's why I had discounted copy protection.

Something apparently happened when the original video (likely DV) was edited, and then transferred to VHS tape for the customer. Something was obviously screwed up on a very technical level, and that's why the external TBC and all digitizers react badly--they know something is wrong. (If only they'd tell me what it is!

If anyone has any other thoughts, feel free to post. And thanks for your help, edDV. -- On another note, do you know of anyone who might be willing to work with this tape? (I.e., someone familiar with DV video and TBCs and digitizers?)

[2Bdecided]

Wrong number of lines per field? CRTs won't even blink at this, but some modern capture devices will die.

However, I have no idea how you'd create a VHS with the wrong number of lines per field from a DV master!


Strange that the TBC in the VCR is happy to clean it up, but the result still cannot be captured. Such a TBC would replace all the syncs (at least, my Panasonic one does) so anything would capture it just fine, however bad the original sync were. However, I don't know what it would do with the wrong number of lines.

It's not PAL-60 or PAL-M or somesuch strange format that many capture devices hate? (Though most American TVs hate them too!).

Cheers,
David.

[moxiecat]

Thanks, David. Wrong number of lines per field--that's my guess as well. That might explain why the picture jitters and/or skips frames when it is digitized. And since all DVD recorders (and probably the Canopus) have some form of TBC (or something similar), that why they choke. So what I need, apparently, is a DVD recorder that has NO TBC or frame synchronization ability! (Does such a thing exist?!)

An external TBC must do something specifically different to the lines in a picture that the line TBCs in S-VHS VCRs do not. I know there are extensive explanations about the differences between the two over in the Restoration forum--I'll have to see what I can find. (Any TBC experts out there want to hazard a guess?)

I doubt it's PAL, since I can output just fine from VHS to my CRT TV. Also can't imagine why a New York videographer would have given a local couple their wedding video on anything but NTSC (and they probably wouldn't have been able to watch it, which I'm sure they did back in 2002).

Is there ANY way to correct the number of lines in an analog VHS picture?! Argh.

[moxiecat]

So, found this: The difference is that an external TBC AND a DVD recorder both provide frame synchronization, a.k.a. continuous sync. The line TBC in a S-VHS VCR does not do this. So frame synchronization might be where the problem happens.

External TBCs strip the sync pulse signal that's on the tape and replace it with a new sync signal, LINE BY LINE. The output sync is always an uninterrupted sequence of valid frames. But: If the video RF signal off tape is missing or corrupted, then the output sync may also be missing or corrupted.

Hmmm....this was always what I suspected: that something was screwed up in this tape's video signal (or its horizontal lines, or frames...).

Given this theory, does anyone have any recommendations as to what I should try next? Are there any DVD recorders or A-D converters that don't do frame synchronization?

[Cornucopia]

There's very little "diagnosis" you can do at home since you don't have that type of equipment. Without being able to truly diagnose WHAT is on that tape, you won't be being efficient in finding the answer to your problem.

Since this is already being a time soak for you, why not take the tape to a good transfer/postproduction house and have THEM put a little of THEIR brain power into this problem.

If they figure it out and can transfer it, you get a digital file/disc/tape from them.
If they can't figure it out, they'll either tell you what CAN be done with it, or tell you they don't know. Either way, I doubt if they'd charge you for their inability to transfer...

Plus, then you could come back here and tell us exactly what was going on...

Scott

[moxiecat]

Hi Scott--thank you for the input.

"A good transfer/postproduction house"...can you recommend one in particular? I doubt that most of the $10 "transfer companies" online would be able to (or willing to) analyze the problem in depth. I would want to communicate to a company exactly what seems to be going on, and be able to trust that they would put time into fixing it.

Also--what type of equipment are you talking about? An oscilloscope or something along those lines?

[edDV]

Hi Scott--thank you for the input.

"A good transfer/postproduction house"...can you recommend one in particular? I doubt that most of the $10 "transfer companies" online would be able to (or willing to) analyze the problem in depth. I would want to communicate to a company exactly what seems to be going on, and be able to trust that they would put time into fixing it.

Also--what type of equipment are you talking about? An oscilloscope or something along those lines?

Use a dub house the local pros use. What town are you in? They will use a pro level TBC/Frame sync with proper test gear. Rates are reasonable. How many and what length tapes need transfer?

This would be an example (San Francisco). Be aware they often reject projects if commercial copy protection is present but probably not for a defunct wedding videographer.
http://www.expressmedia.tv/post-production/duplication/

A sign of "pro" status is support of Betacam and DigiBeta formats.