Test conversion with hanbreak, converttoX & BDRB Help

[jamesj84]

Hello all,

I been trying a lot of programs to help me with my conversion process of converting my blurays.

With trying to keep a decent quality and sound i am expecting about 10-15gb per movie.

BDRB using CRF 18 - Audio AC3 448 i got a 25gb film to 15gb in 3 hours.
ConvertToX using the same values etc i got the film to 17gb in size.
Handbreak - Using a CRF of 18, plus again AC3 448 audio it took 9 hours but went down to 4.5gb in size

I was expecting to get similar results to BDRB & convertToX.
Handbreak is obviously doing a hell of a lot of work somewhere. WHat is handbreak doing that im not aware of it doing if that makes sence.

I wonder if i am using handbreak incorrectly. Originally i use handbreak to convert my dvds to MP4 which wokrs a treat.

[jagabo]

The difference between x264's fastest and slowest settings is more than 10x. You have to examine the settings in detail. How do the image qualities compare? Did handbrake encode the entire video? Did you apply any filters?

[jamesj84]

No filters were applied.
In terms of settings, i only made sure that the video & audio settings were identical.
Ie CRF was set to 18
& Audio was set to AC3 448

Should i be looking at other settings.

[poisondeathray]

Different x264 versions = possibly different settings - not all settings are available in each build. Also CRF has been rescaled several times in the past.

Use mediainfo (view=>text) copy & paste the info back here for each of the videos

[jagabo]

In terms of settings, i only made sure that the video & audio settings were identical.
Ie CRF was set to 18
& Audio was set to AC3 448

Should i be looking at other settings.

There are dozens of settings in x264;
http://mewiki.project357.com/wiki/X264_Settings

[jamesj84]

I just thought that by applying the CRF values that would override other settings.
Maybe i was wrong.

[jamesj84]

Here are the information on my above tests using media info.

PLease can you tell me what im doing wrong in handbrake or even ripbot to have my films at 5gb etc when the CRF value is both set on all 4 programs to CRF 18.

Thank you for taking your time to look.


Convert to X

General
Unique ID : 335267732454858799996282573318690032512 (0xFC3A376EA6DAB2F7C97DBA16CBF5CB80)
Complete name : C:\Users\James\Desktop\hdconverttox kL\hdconverttox.MKV
Format : Matroska
Format version : Version 1
File size : 18.0 GiB
Duration : 1h 35mn
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 27.0 Mbps
Encoded date : UTC 2012-01-10 00:35:34
Writing application : eac3to
Writing library : Haali DirectShow Matroska Muxer 1.11.96.14
Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.1
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 3 frames
Format settings, GOP : M=4, N=24
Muxing mode : Container profile=Unknown@0.0
Codec ID : V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC
Duration : 1h 35mn
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 26.4 Mbps
Maximum bit rate : 35.0 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 23.976 fps
Standard : NTSC
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.532
Stream size : 17.6 GiB (98%)
Default : No
Forced : No
Color primaries : BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4, SMPTE RP177
Transfer characteristics : BT.709-5, BT.1361
Matrix coefficients : BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4 709, SMPTE RP177


BluRay Rebuilder (BDRB)

General
Unique ID : 199172776251123560973255418887353088381 (0x95D7480919FB829C8DBB27E7F9AF397D)
Complete name : C:\Users\James\Desktop\kill_list_HDBDRB.MKV
Format : Matroska
Format version : Version 2
File size : 15.8 GiB
Duration : 1h 35mn
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 23.7 Mbps
Encoded date : UTC 2012-01-04 03:34:36
Writing application : mkvmerge v2.9.7 ('Tenderness') built on Jul 1 2009 18:43:35
Writing library : libebml v0.7.7 + libmatroska v0.8.1
Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.1
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 2 frames
Codec ID : V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC
Duration : 1h 35mn
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 23.0 Mbps
Maximum bit rate : 30.0 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 23.976 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.463
Stream size : 15.4 GiB (97%)
Writing library : x264 core 120 r2120 0c7dab9
Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=1 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x3:0x3 / me=dia / subme=1 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.00:0.00 / mixed_ref=0 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=0 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=1 / chroma_qp_offset=0 / threads=6 / sliced_threads=0 / slices=4 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / interlaced=0 / bluray_compat=1 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=3 / b_pyramid=0 / b_adapt=1 / b_bias=0 / direct=1 / weightb=1 / open_gop=0 / weightp=1 / keyint=24 / keyint_min=1 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc_lookahead=0 / rc=crf / mbtree=0 / crf=18.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=0 / qpmax=69 / qpstep=4 / vbv_maxrate=30000 / vbv_bufsize=30000 / crf_max=0.0 / nal_hrd=vbr / ip_ratio=1.10 / pb_ratio=1.10 / aq=1:1.00
Default : Yes
Forced : No
Audio
ID : 2
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Mode extension : CM (complete main)
Codec ID : A_AC3
Duration : 1h 35mn
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 192 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : Front: L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 131 MiB (1%)
Language : English
Default : Yes
Forced : No
Menu
00:00:00.000 : en:00:00:00.000
00:11:23.516 : en:00:11:23.516
00:21:34.668 : en:00:21:34.668
00:27:06.291 : en:00:27:06.291
00:35:52.692 : en:00:35:52.692
00:41:52.801 : en:00:41:52.801
00:51:23.455 : en:00:51:23.455
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01:05:41.020 : en:01:05:41.020
01:11:09.056 : en:01:11:09.056
01:18:14.773 : en:01:18:14.773
01:26:36.608 : en:01:26:36.608


Handbrake

General
Unique ID : 166490214213670572573933192844665521091 (0x7D40D9518544D1ACD623E41BAB8D83C3)
Complete name : C:\Users\James\Desktop\handbreakkl\handreak Killist00000-1.mkv
Format : Matroska
Format version : Version 2
File size : 4.87 GiB
Duration : 1h 35mn
Overall bit rate : 7 294 Kbps
Writing application : HandBrake 0.9.5
Writing library : libmkv 0.6.4.1
Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 4 frames
Codec ID : V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC
Duration : 1h 35mn
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 816 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 2.35:1
Frame rate mode : Variable
Frame rate : 23.976 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Writing library : x264 core 112
Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=3 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x3:0x113 / me=hex / subme=7 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.00:0.00 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=1 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=1 / chroma_qp_offset=-2 / threads=6 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / interlaced=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=3 / b_pyramid=2 / b_adapt=2 / b_bias=0 / direct=1 / weightb=1 / open_gop=0 / weightp=2 / keyint=240 / keyint_min=23 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc_lookahead=50 / rc=crf / mbtree=1 / crf=18.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=3 / qpmax=51 / qpstep=4 / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:1.00
Language : English
Default : Yes
Forced : No
Color primaries : BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4, SMPTE RP177
Transfer characteristics : BT.709-5, BT.1361
Matrix coefficients : BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4 709, SMPTE RP177
Audio #1
ID : 2
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Mode extension : CM (complete main)
Codec ID : A_AC3
Duration : 1h 35mn
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 448 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : Front: L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 306 MiB (6%)
Default : Yes
Forced : No
Audio #2
ID : 3
Format : AAC
Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec
Format profile : LC
Codec ID : A_AAC
Duration : 1h 35mn
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : Front: L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Compression mode : Lossy
Default : No
Forced : No


Ripbot

General
Unique ID : 199512195115955990307243947182233381298 (0x9618A6AD7807A703BE7BD202B3A669B2)
Complete name : C:\Users\James\Desktop\ripbot kill list\kill list ripbot.mkv
Format : Matroska
Format version : Version 2
File size : 5.64 GiB
Duration : 1h 35mn
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 8 448 Kbps
Movie name : kill list ripbot
Encoded date : UTC 2012-01-11 01:13:21
Writing application : mkvmerge v5.2.0 ('I can't explain') built on Dec 29 2011 19:29:57
Writing library : libebml v1.2.3 + libmatroska v1.3.0
Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.1
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 3 frames
Codec ID : V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC
Duration : 1h 35mn
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 7 832 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 62.5 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 23.976 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.158
Stream size : 5.22 GiB (93%)
Writing library : x264 core 120 r2120 0c7dab9
Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=3 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x3:0x113 / me=hex / subme=7 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.00:0.00 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=1 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=1 / chroma_qp_offset=-2 / threads=6 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / interlaced=0 / bluray_compat=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=3 / b_pyramid=0 / b_adapt=1 / b_bias=0 / direct=1 / weightb=1 / open_gop=0 / weightp=2 / keyint=240 / keyint_min=24 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc_lookahead=40 / rc=crf / mbtree=1 / crf=18.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=0 / qpmax=69 / qpstep=4 / vbv_maxrate=62500 / vbv_bufsize=62500 / crf_max=0.0 / nal_hrd=vbr / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:1.00
Default : Yes
Forced : No
Audio
ID : 2
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Mode extension : CM (complete main)
Codec ID : A_AC3
Duration : 1h 35mn
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 448 Kbps
Channel(s) : 6 channels
Channel positions : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 306 MiB (5%)
Language : English
Default : Yes
Forced : No
Menu
00:00:00.000 : en:00:00:00.000
00:11:23.516 : en:00:11:23.516
00:21:34.668 : en:00:21:34.668
00:27:06.291 : en:00:27:06.291
00:35:52.692 : en:00:35:52.692
00:41:52.802 : en:00:41:52.802
00:51:23.455 : en:00:51:23.455
00:57:38.622 : en:00:57:38.622
01:05:41.020 : en:01:05:41.020
01:11:09.056 : en:01:11:09.056
01:18:14.773 : en:01:18:14.773
01:26:36.608 : en:01:26:36.608

[poisondeathray]

You're not doing anything wrong

Comparing CRF is meaningless when using different settings, different x264 versions

If you want an exact bitrate, use 2pass encode

[jamesj84]

So is BDRB & Converttox using 2 pass and ripbot & handbrake using single pass.

[poisondeathray]

So is BDRB & Converttox using 2 pass and ripbot & handbrake using single pass.

no, they are all using CRF (actually I'm not sure about hdconverttox, because the metadata is missing)

bdrb is using faster settings (faster analysis, lower quality, but blu-ray compliant, with shorter GOP's - the other videos may stutter or have seek problems on some hardware playback, but should be ok on PC playback)

The settings are completely different between them, the x264 versions are different as well

Different pre-processing as well, e.g. handbrake is cropped 1920x816 , maybe a few other things. If you examine the log files you can determine what else was done to them

The point is, they exhibit different processing and settings, so you would expect them to be different

[jagabo]

Some of the biggest contributors to long encoding times: / me=hex / subme=7

[jamesj84]

So from the info given, which looks like the best programs to work with.
WHats the reason for stutter. How can i stop this?
ALso what can i do to make my encoding times quicker.

Ohh and HDConverttoX was single pass I just checked.


Cheers

[poisondeathray]

No, I'm not saying you will get stutter - but I'm saying the long keyint (big GOP size) can *sometimes* cause problems with some devices, especially on FF/RW seeking . This is a non issue on PC playback

Use BDRB settings if you want quicker encodes. Or just use BDRB, your 1st post encode times agree with that - this has the added benefit of being compatible with blu-ray players (e.g. if you decide to make a disc at some point)

[jagabo]

It looks like BDRB is using x264's "superfast" preset. Though very fast it delivers surprisingly good quality -- but requires very high bitrates, especially with noisy video. That's why the file was so much bigger at the same CRF setting. Aside from that, one of the artifacts you'll notice is slightly rougher edges when objects are moving.

[jamesj84]

So are we saying that the handbrake file which is around 6gb will be the same quality as the other BDRB & Hconvert to X files which are 15gb in size as they have encoded the files quickly. Are we suggesting that handbrake is encoding the files better then my HDConverttoX.

I am not bothered about speed. I have a good machine, Quad core with 6gb ram. If that helps.
I would prefer a 10gb film which is encdoded using the latest X264 and at the highest posible quality that it can be. I am a quality not quantity person.

SHould i concentrate on 2 pass settings? And control the bitrate rather then the CRF. Say if i go for bitrate of 11000.
SHould i apply filters etc?



Im just trying to work out the best settings, then i will keep them saved for all my conversions. I have about 30 blurays and dont want to do them all and think i could have done them differently lol. SOrry for the NOOB questions, its still pretty new.
I could do a retest of the same file with 2 pass settigns and other things selected.

You say the X264 versions are all different. Take it this is down to the program? Ideas on the best conversion program which utilises latest software.

[jagabo]

So are we saying that the handbrake file which is around 6gb will be the same quality as the other BDRB & Hconvert to X files which are 15gb in size as they have encoded the files quickly.

Watch them and decide for yourself. They make different tradeoffs.

I am not bothered about speed. I have a good machine, Quad core with 6gb ram. If that helps.
I would prefer a 10gb film which is encdoded using the latest X264 and at the highest posible quality that it can be. I am a quality not quantity person.

SHould i concentrate on 2 pass settings? And control the bitrate rather then the CRF. Say if i go for bitrate of 11000.

With CRF encoding you know what the quality of the video will be before you encode, but you don't know the final file size. With bitrate based encoding you know what the file size will be before you encode (file size = bitrate * running time), but you don't know the final quality. Pick whichever suits your goals. Different videos require different bitrates in order to maintain quality.

SHhould i apply filters etc?

With high quality sources you shouldn't need to.

Im just trying to work out the best settings, then i will keep them saved for all my conversions. I have about 30 blurays and dont want to do them all and think i could have done them differently lol. SOrry for the NOOB questions, its still pretty new.
I could do a retest of the same file with 2 pass settigns and other things selected.

You could crank all the settings up to the equivalent of x264's "placebo" preset. With CRF encoding you'll get a file that's a few percent smaller than say the "medium" preset but it will take several times longer to encode. If you use bitrate based encoding you'll get a file that's a few percent better quality (you won't see a difference at normal viewing speeds and distances, you'll have to look at enlarged still frames) and it will also take several times longer to encode (not to mention that 2-pass requires more time than single pass CRF). Your 9 hour handbrake encode might go up to 90 hours or more!

Basically: in CRF mode, the more time the encoder spends compressing the video the smaller the file will be. In Bitrate mode the more time the encode spends compressing the file the better the quality will be. But you get vastly diminishing returns going over the "medium" preset. The "superfast" preset is somewhat of anomaly in that it is very fast but can give pretty good quality -- but it requires very high bitrates (a result of not using mbtree).

You say the X264 versions are all different. Take it this is down to the program? Ideas on the best conversion program which utilises latest software.

x264 is constantly evolving. The programs you're using may be using different versions of x264. But given they are fairly up to date the version of x264 matters less than the settings used.