Blackmagic Intensity Pro - NTSC Captured File Not Recognised at Interlaced?

[kauri]

I am using the above to capture uncompressed AVI from my NTSC Hi8 machine. This works well, but I do have a query...

When I play the captured AVI through any player (VLC, Windows Media Player for example) onto my computer screen, the output appears to be interlaced, so it looks like these don't automatically recognise that the file is interlaced. When I use GSpot on the file, it is showing the frame rate as 29.97, but is not showing any field rate (which I'd have thought should be showing 59.94).

I find this strange as when I used the Canopus ADVC-55 to capture the video as DV, VLC and WMP would automatically deinterlace, and in GSpot it would show as 29.97frames with 59.94fields.

Anybody know if I'm doing anything wrong?

I'm hoping to archive all my Hi8 tapes, so thought that capturing them using VirtualDub and something like Huffyuv would be the way to go, but am worried that the captured video file not "advertising" itself as interlaced could be a problem, especially when I get around to editing all that video and converting it to other formats.

[jagabo]

AVI doesn't really support interlaced video. Individual codecsused within AVI (like DV) can signal the video is interlaced but only if the receiver knows how to look for it. If your editor doesn't automatically detect the video is interlaced you can usually just override what it thinks of the video by setting the source properties.

[edDV]

I am using the above to capture uncompressed AVI from my NTSC Hi8 machine. This works well, but I do have a query...

When I play the captured AVI through any player (VLC, Windows Media Player for example) onto my computer screen, the output appears to be interlaced, so it looks like these don't automatically recognise that the file is interlaced. When I use GSpot on the file, it is showing the frame rate as 29.97, but is not showing any field rate (which I'd have thought should be showing 59.94).

Let me parse this.

First BMI only caps interlace so it is up to you to identify the cap file as interlace and the field order prior to recode.

Wait! I think you mistook BMI as a consumer product. It caps to an intermediate file intended to be encoded to a different distribution format. The technician is expected to manage the encode.

Be back later but it would help to better describe your capture settings.

[kauri]

Thanks for the quick response!

I've taken some screen captures of the settings: VirtualDub compression settings, gspot of AVI produced, part of video played in WMP, and Blackmagic settings in VirtualDub (the screen says PAL, but I did use NTSC for this capture).

[poisondeathray]

Your attachments don't work, but everything sounds fine

It's normal for WMP not to automatically deinterlace huffyuv/AVI

You didn't mention this, but the aspect ratio is probably wrong as well. That's normal too. It probably plays as square pixel instead of 4:3 or 16:9. (things probably look slightly distorted, like a circle looks like an oval)

These things are interpreted in the editing software

[kauri]

Your attachments don't work,

Each of the 4 attachments is a link to the file. They worked for me.
Edit: Fixed now

It's normal for WMP not to automatically deinterlace huffyuv/AVI

Same thing seems to happen, though, if I choose uncompressed AVI

My main worry is that the editing software (like Adobe Premiere Pro) is not going to permit me to properly edit the video as it may not recognise the file as an NTSC interlaced AVI file.

[poisondeathray]

Maybe you get the new member preferred treatment

This is what is says for me
"Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator"

It will work fine for premiere pro. You right click the files in the clip bin and interpet the file , both the aspect ratio and field order. This is standard procedure for many intermediate file types like huffyuv, lagarith, etc... most editing programs assume square pixel for AVI

[kauri]

mmm... In Adobe Pro v7 I only get as per attachment. Nothing about field order.

[edDV]

So this is huffyuv?

A Hi8 cap to huffyuv should have a PAR of 0.9091.

Next you edit/filter, then export encode.

[jagabo]

HuffYUV and uncompressed YUV/RGB have no way of signalling interlaced and aspect ratio. And the AVI container doesn't have interlace or aspect ratio information. So you have to manually specify the video is interlaced, the field order, and the aspect ratio when you import them into an editor.

[poisondeathray]

mmm... In Adobe Pro v7 I only get as per attachment. Nothing about field order.

I can see that attachment, but maybe the older version doesn't have those options ? Those options are available in CS4 - CS5.5 for certain

[kauri]

Yes, looks like the newer CS has that capability. Unfortunately insufficient funds to upgrade . So to summarise:
- uncompressed or huffyvu/lagarith compressed interlaced video AVI files do not contain information to indicate that they are actually interlaced (with two fields in every frame).
- the editing software needs to determine if the file is interlaced video.

Based on the above, I would assume that Adobe Premiere Pro 7, for any effects/transitions, would just apply the transition to each frame instead of each field in the frame? I have played with Adobe Premiere Pro 7 using a BMIP capture through VirtualDub (huffyuv). When I "made the movie" into a DVD compatible file, it looked like WMP knew it was interlaced and played it correctly (without interlacing visible) on the monitor, so things look OK. But I'm not sure what is actually happening 'under the hood', so don't know if I'm getting the best out of it.

I've also got the Canopus ADVC-55. The video capture files are recognised by Adobe Premiere Pro 7 as NTSC Interlaced Video. So no problems there. But I understand that DV-AVI, as it is compressed and for other reasons, does not produce the same quality output as capturing uncompressed. Hence my reason for going the Blackmagic Intensity Pro route. But if it means spending more money to get editing software that can recognise AVI files as interlaced, I might as well have stayed with the Canopus solution.

[jagabo]

I would assume that Adobe Premiere Pro 7, for any effects/transitions, would just apply the transition to each frame instead of each field in the frame?

Just a guess: it may depend on your project setting. Interlaced project assumes interlaced sources. Progressive project assumes progressive sources.

I've also got the Canopus ADVC-55. The video capture files are recognised by Adobe Premiere Pro 7 as NTSC Interlaced Video.

Most programs know how to query the DV data for interlace status.

[kauri]

Just a guess: it may depend on your project setting. Interlaced project assumes interlaced sources. Progressive project assumes progressive sources.

Ah.. if your guess is correct, then I have nothing to worry about, unless I get the field order wrong.

[kauri]

One last query...
I note that the Intensity Pro captures D1 NTSC at 720x486. Am I better off leaving the capture at these dimensions, or would it hurt if I crop off the bottom 6 pixels (which is rubbish noise anyway) to bring it to 720x480 while capturing through VirtualDub?

[jagabo]

I'd crop it down to 720x480 because that's the norm for most applications.

[kauri]

Thanks all for your patience...
Now for the last last query
I contacted Blackmagic tech support regarding NTSC AVI field order and they indicated that the card captures TFF. To confirm, I used AVISynth with VirtualDub:

AVISource("movie.avi")
AssumeTFF()
separatefield()
When playing back through VirtualDub frame by frame, the motion was jerky (one frame forward, next frame back a bit). When I redid with AssumeBFF, the motion was smooth. This leads me to believe the card captures interlaced BFF, and not TFF

Can anyone confirm if the Blackmagic Intensity Pro captures NTSC interlaced BFF or TFF?

[jagabo]

Your experiment with AviSynth is definitive.

[henryperu77]

You can capture directly in h264 using virtualdub, h264 supports interlaced. I use this settings for NTSC SD with my blackmagic



But with PAL you need to change the SAR , use the ARS Calculator for a properly aspect ratio on PAL material.
The extra commands if you can't see it are:

--interlaced --bff

[henryperu77]

Thanks all for your patience...
Now for the last last query
I contacted Blackmagic tech support regarding NTSC AVI field order and they indicated that the card captures TFF. To confirm, I used AVISynth with VirtualDub:

AVISource("movie.avi")
AssumeTFF()
separatefield()
When playing back through VirtualDub frame by frame, the motion was jerky (one frame forward, next frame back a bit). When I redid with AssumeBFF, the motion was smooth. This leads me to believe the card captures interlaced BFF, and not TFF

Can anyone confirm if the Blackmagic Intensity Pro captures NTSC interlaced BFF or TFF?

SD is BFF but HD is TFF

[kauri]

Yes, Blackmagic support has confirmed that NTSC SD is BFF.

[neomaine]

kauri,

You've mentioned that you're expecting your file to be NTSC (post #4) yet from your attachments you've got the BMIP set to PAL.

[kauri]

Yes, I know. I did indicate in that post that I did actually use NTSC for the capture...

.... (the screen says PAL, but I did use NTSC for this capture).