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    After reading around I understood it is possible to create a DVD from a film source and keep it in it's native 24p. The 24p would then be displayed natively without adjustment if you have a progressive display and player but if not the DVD player does the pulldown to 29.97i.

    So, my source is a 1080p file at 23.976fps progressive which I want to put on DVD as is. I'm using Cinema Craft Encoder and wondered if I'm doing it right. As far as I can see when choosing 23.976fps you are forced to apply a pulldown, 3:2 or 2:3. So does that mean my files are going to come out correctly, just with a pulldown flag for the players? Reading this guide seems to suggest a 2:3 pulldown - http://www.doom9.org/index.html?/mpg/cce270.htm

    So the options I've selected in CCE are 23.976fps, 2:3 pulldown, zigzag blockscan, progressive frame. Is that correct, will I get a 24p DVD from that?
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  2. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Killer3737 View Post
    After reading around I understood it is possible to create a DVD from a film source and keep it in it's native 24p. The 24p would then be displayed natively without adjustment if you have a progressive display and player but if not the DVD player does the pulldown to 29.97i.

    So, my source is a 1080p file at 23.976fps progressive which I want to put on DVD as is. I'm using Cinema Craft Encoder and wondered if I'm doing it right. As far as I can see when choosing 23.976fps you are forced to apply a pulldown, 3:2 or 2:3. So does that mean my files are going to come out correctly, just with a pulldown flag for the players? Reading this guide seems to suggest a 2:3 pulldown - http://www.doom9.org/index.html?/mpg/cce270.htm

    So the options I've selected in CCE are 23.976fps, 2:3 pulldown, zigzag blockscan, progressive frame. Is that correct, will I get a 24p DVD from that?
    ?????
    23.976p is fine for DVD.

    Your 1080p (1920x1080p or 1440x1080p) need downscale to 720x480 to be compatible.

    Pulldown? Is the source interlace? Normally you inverse telecine before downscale.
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  3. edDV, if his 'source' (most likely downloaded from somewhere) is already 23.976fps, then it doesn't need an IVTC and he can encode it as 23.976fps with pulldown (after resizing it for NTSC DVD).

    Originally Posted by Killer3737 View Post
    After reading around I understood it is possible to create a DVD from a film source and keep it in it's native 24p. The 24p would then be displayed natively without adjustment if you have a progressive display and player but if not the DVD player does the pulldown to 29.97i.
    You've garbled that a little bit. If you're in the UK I expect that one way or another it'll be converted to 25p or 25i output for your PAL display.

    If you're talking about how NTSC displays handle it, one way or another it's going to have to output 59.94 fields per second (for interlaced displays) or 59.94 frames per second (for progressive displays). There will be a 3/2/3/2 pattern of slightly jerky playback of fields (for interlaced displays) or frames (for progressive displays). If you have a 120 or 240 Hz display, then each frame will play at a whole multiple of 24 for smoother playback.

    So the options I've selected in CCE are 23.976fps, 2:3 pulldown, zigzag blockscan, progressive frame. Is that correct, will I get a 24p DVD from that?
    Those settings are fine. You'll get an NTSC compliant M2V from that ready to author which outputs interlaced 29.97fps. As it should.
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    The source is actually a Youtube video but I know it was of something shot on film, so the source should be pure film. This is what mediainfo says anyway:

    Video
    ID : 1
    Format : AVC
    Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
    Format profile : High@L4.0
    Format settings, CABAC : Yes
    Format settings, ReFrames : 1 frame
    Format settings, GOP : M=1, N=48
    Codec ID : avc1
    Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
    Duration : 48mn 59s
    Bit rate mode : Variable
    Bit rate : 4 809 Kbps
    Maximum bit rate : 8 091 Kbps
    Width : 1 920 pixels
    Height : 1 080 pixels
    Display aspect ratio : 16:9
    Frame rate mode : Variable
    Frame rate : 23.976 fps
    Minimum frame rate : 17.241 fps
    Maximum frame rate : 24.390 fps
    Color space : YUV
    Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
    Bit depth : 8 bits
    Scan type : Progressive
    Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.097
    Stream size : 1.65 GiB (97%)
    Tagged date : UTC 2011-04-14 01:55:52
    So just so it's clear because I think I'm getting slightly confused, with those settings mentioned the resulting DVD will playback in 24p on an HDTV that supports it?
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  5. You might get sync problems with the variable frame rate .


    Frame rate mode : Variable
    Frame rate : 23.976 fps
    Minimum frame rate : 17.241 fps
    Maximum frame rate : 24.390 fps
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    Yeah I wondered about that, I'm using the original audio source though which is in sync? I don't really know how variable frame rates work.
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  7. Originally Posted by Killer3737 View Post
    So just so it's clear because I think I'm getting slightly confused, with those settings mentioned the resulting DVD will playback in 24p on an HDTV that supports it?
    No, unless you have one of those 72Hz TVs (each frame repeated 3 times) or an 120Hz TV (each frame repeated 5 times) or a 240Hz set (each frame repeated 10 times), on all other NTSC TV sets you'll get it played back a little bit stuttery, 3/2/3/2, either fields or frames, depending on the type of set. What do you think the 3:2 pulldown is for, but to tell the player how the frames are to be played back. It's not called 3:2 (or 2:3) for nothing.

    Here, read this:

    http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/dvd-benchmark-part-5-progressive-10-2000.html

    If you read and understand about the first half of the article, you'll come to understand why material encoded as 24p isn't played back as 24p - why 3:2 pulldown is necessary. There's no such thing as a 24p NTSC DVD. They're all 30i.

    And if you're playing it on a PAL TV set, as far as I know you'll never get completely smooth playback. But I'm not all that familiar with how PAL TVs handle NTSC DVDs with 3:2 pulldown.
    Last edited by manono; 12th Oct 2011 at 21:14.
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    Originally Posted by manono View Post
    Originally Posted by Killer3737 View Post
    So just so it's clear because I think I'm getting slightly confused, with those settings mentioned the resulting DVD will playback in 24p on an HDTV that supports it?
    No, unless you have one of those 72Hz TVs (each frame repeated 3 times) or an 120Hz TV (each frame repeated 5 times) or a 240Hz set (each frame repeated 10 times), on all other NTSC TV sets you'll get it played back a little bit stuttery, 3/2/3/2, either fields or frames, depending on the type of set. What do you think the 3:2 pulldown is for, but to tell the player how the frames are to be played back. It's not called 3:2 (or 2:3) for nothing.

    Here, read this:

    http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/dvd-benchmark-part-5-progressive-10-2000.html

    If you read and understand about the first half of the article, you'll come to understand why material encoded as 24p isn't played back as 24p - why 3:2 pulldown is necessary.

    And if you're playing it on a PAL TV set, as far as I know you'll never get completely smooth playback. But I'm not all that familiar with how PAL TVs handle NTSC DVDs with 3:2 pulldown.
    Looks like a very good read, thanks.
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  9. Originally Posted by Killer3737 View Post
    Yeah I wondered about that, I'm using the original audio source though which is in sync? I don't really know how variable frame rates work.

    The short summary is DVD-video doesn't support VFR video. The audio is played the same, but timecodes read by the software player cause the video to speed up or slow down in different sections (certain frames might be displayed longer or shorter, and the interval isn't constant, like CFR).

    So if you made it as a DVD, it would go in and out of sync in various sections - it depends how variable and what the magnitude of the frame rate changes are. It might be very bad, or it might be not noticable at all

    Sometimes you can convert it to "pseudo" CFR by using DirectShowSource() and convertfps=true . Search for "VFR", it's discussed quite frequently.
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    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    Originally Posted by Killer3737 View Post
    Yeah I wondered about that, I'm using the original audio source though which is in sync? I don't really know how variable frame rates work.

    The short summary is DVD-video doesn't support VFR video. The audio is played the same, but timecodes read by the software player cause the video to speed up or slow down in different sections (certain frames might be displayed longer or shorter, and the interval isn't constant, like CFR).

    So if you made it as a DVD, it would go in and out of sync in various sections - it depends how variable and what the magnitude of the frame rate changes are. It might be very bad, or it might be not noticable at all

    Sometimes you can convert it to "pseudo" CFR by using DirectShowSource() and convertfps=true . Search for "VFR", it's discussed quite frequently.
    Ok thanks. I'll look into it some more.

    Regarding the last point though, this is my current import at the top of my script:

    DirectShowSource("video.mp4", audio=false, fps=23.976)

    Are you suggesting removing that fps flag and adding the convertfps=true instead or should they both be there?
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  11. I usually convert the audio as well, but you can try it without, test it, then re-evaluate. If it's out of sync on a software player, it will be out of sync on a DVD player and you won't have to waste a disc

    But since the source is a YT video, you have to convert the audio anyways. (AAC audio isn't DVD complaint)

    DirectShowSource("video.mp4", fps=23.976, convertfps=true, audio=true)

    Sometimes the variation is so small that you can't detect it, maybe you don't even need to use convertfps. It depends on what the timecodes are.
    Last edited by poisondeathray; 12th Oct 2011 at 23:24.
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  12. I just use an 'AssumeFPS' call in my scripts and haven't had any synch problems when converting 1080p YouTube videos for DVD. And I don't use DirectShowSource either. I much prefer FFMPEG2Source. And I also handle the audio outside of the script.
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    Ok, so does this look right:

    LoadCPlugin("C:\Program Files (x86)\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\ffms2.dll")
    FFMPEGSource2("Video.mp4")
    AssumeFPS(23.976)
    Spline64Resize(720,480)
    ColorMatrix(mode="Rec.709->Rec.601")
    Thanks.
    Last edited by Killer3737; 13th Oct 2011 at 16:19.
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  14. that function is specified in the FFMS2.avsi file, unzip that into the plugins folder as well . ffvideosource and ffaudiosource come with the .dll

    or if you're not using audio, you can use ffvideosource() instead

    ffvideosource("video.mp4")

    or separately with audio
    aud=ffaudiosource("video.mp4")
    vid=ffvideosource("video.mp4")
    audiodub(vid,aud)

    is the same thing as this(audio & video), which is included in the .avsi as a wrapper function for audiodub
    ffmpegsource2("video.mp4", atrack=-1)


    If you want to try assumefps(24000,1001) , it might be good enough for sync as manono suggested. It depends what the timecodes are.

    The benefit of including audio in the script is you can check for sync by playing the .avs in a media player, so you don't waste time encoding the whole thing just to check. Avisynth always frameserves CFR, so this is representative of what should be on you DVD

    EDIT: I would include clamp=0 in the colormatrix line
    ColorMatrix(mode="Rec.709->Rec.601")

    and use AssumeFPS(24000,1001) if you want to be more precise (23.976 is an approximation)
    Last edited by poisondeathray; 13th Oct 2011 at 16:23.
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  15. Thanks, pdr. I didn't check my script templates and should have said FFVideoSource rather than FFMPEG2Source (which itself was wrong and should have been FFMPEGSource2).

    But I have downloaded a number of videos from YouTube to be used for reencoding for one thing or another and haven't had any synch problems. There's always a first time, though.
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    Ok, thanks again for the help, encoding seems to have gone to plan and in sync.

    Final quick question, is it ok to include normal 29.97fps interlaced video on the same disc, or should it all be the same?
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  17. Originally Posted by Killer3737 View Post
    Final quick question, is it ok to include normal 29.97fps interlaced video on the same disc, or should it all be the same?
    They already are the same (in the sense that matters here). Progressive 23.976 with pulldown outputs interlaced 29.97fps. The answer is 'yes', it's OK to have both on the same disc. It happens all the time on retail DVDs and not just on the same disc but even within the same title.
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    That is what I though, but thanks for the confirmation.

    One more issue though, the main footage went into Adobe encore just fine, no re-encoding or problems with the output, still the same 23.976 with 2:3 pulldown but encore doesn't seem to like that footage for motion menus, it re-encodes them (badly) to 29.97fps interlaced and are out of sync with the audio, the video runs too fast.

    What is the correct method to encode to 29.97i before adding them to Encore? Quality isn't too much of a problem, it's only for the motion menu but I'd like them to be in sync.
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  19. I use progressive 23.976fps sources with pulldown all the time for menus for authoring to DVD. So do retail DVDs. I suspect you're doing something wrong. But, since I don't use Encore I have no idea what. If you really want to create hard telecine from progressive 23.976fps, then:

    AssumeFrameBased
    SeparateFields
    SelectEvery(8, 0,1, 2,3,2, 5,4, 7,6,7)
    Weave
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  20. soft pulldown works fine for timeline and motion menus in encore, it should say "don't transcode" when it passes through

    You probably have mismatched settings somewhere, like PAL settings (maybe since you are in UK). Double check your project settings and menu settings
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    Looking it up it appears to be a bug with encore. found this posted on the official forum:

    In my experience, if you're using a multi-page menu with a looping video asset behind it, Encore has the following bugs (which I've already reported via the official form):

    • The video asset is always transcoded, even if it's in a perfectly legal format and Adobe recognizes it as not needing transcoding.
    • The video asset is always transcoded to 30p. If you feed it a 24p or 30i file, it will get transcoded to 30p, no option to override.

    If you're not using multipage menus, you might have better results.
    I assume he is only talking about NTSC projects though because I've made PAL multi page motion menus before and they've stayed 25fps.

    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
    soft pulldown works fine for timeline and motion menus in encore, it should say "don't transcode" when it passes through

    You probably have mismatched settings somewhere, like PAL settings (maybe since you are in UK). Double check your project settings and menu settings
    It's definitely all set up as an NTSC project and the assets all say don't transcode but it seems the above bug is causing them to be re-encoded. I'll test it out with a single page menu, see if that does make a difference.
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  22. Interesting... But you would think Encore doesn't use HCEnc...I just did a quick test with a single page motion menu - if it is re-encoding, then it shouldn't say "Writing Library HCEnc" in the metadata of the authored VOB now would it ? I would imagine it would be written over if it was re-encoded - this is not the case here . I think you have something set incorrectly

    I'll try a multi menu to see if I can get it to re-encode
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    It is something funky on my end then. I just tried again, single motion menu, all of the input media was 23.976 w/ pulldown.

    The main feature video VOBs came at as such:

    Video
    ID : 224 (0xE0)
    Format : MPEG Video
    Format version : Version 2
    Format profile : Main@Main
    Format settings, BVOP : Yes
    Format settings, Matrix : Default
    Duration : 9mn 22s
    Bit rate mode : Variable
    Bit rate : 5 879 Kbps
    Nominal bit rate : 9 800 Kbps
    Width : 720 pixels
    Height : 480 pixels
    Display aspect ratio : 16:9
    Frame rate : 23.976 fps
    Standard : NTSC
    Color space : YUV
    Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
    Bit depth : 8 bits
    Scan type : Progressive
    Scan order : 2:3 Pulldown
    Compression mode : Lossy
    Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.709
    Stream size : 395 MiB (83%)
    But the menu VOB is:

    ideo
    ID : 224 (0xE0)
    Format : MPEG Video
    Format version : Version 2
    Format profile : Main@Main
    Format settings, BVOP : Yes
    Format settings, Matrix : Default
    Duration : 1mn 36s
    Bit rate mode : Constant
    Bit rate : 7 986 Kbps
    Width : 720 pixels
    Height : 480 pixels
    Display aspect ratio : 2.35:1
    Frame rate : 29.970 fps
    Standard : NTSC
    Color space : YUV
    Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
    Bit depth : 8 bits
    Compression mode : Lossy
    Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.771
    Stream size : 92.2 MiB (96%)
    Clearly re-encoded. Bizarrely with a 2.35:1 ratio as well, but doesn't show when viewing. Apart from choosing NTSC as my project when I start what other setting could cause this? Also as mentioned all assets including the menu file (menu1.m2v) are listed as 'don't transcode'

    Image
    [Attachment 9139 - Click to enlarge]
    Click image for larger version

Name:	donttranscpde.jpg
Views:	981
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ID:	9140
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  24. Yeah that's weird. What version of encore ?

    It's working ok here, even on multi menu. I even tried low bitrate test (if Encore re-encoded, you wouldn't expect it to retain the low bitrate)
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    Did some more searching on the adobe forums and think I found the problem:

    1. If you import a pre-transcoded m2v file as the motion menu background asset, and only have button highlights in the Encore menu (this means no text layers or other graphics in the menu PSD), then Encore will not re-transcode that background asset.
    2. If you import a pre-transcoded motion background asset and apply any kind of text, images, or anything at all in the menu besides highlight layers prefixed with (=1), (=2), or (=3), then Encore will have to render those graphics into the background and re-transcode (double compression = very bad).
    So does that basically mean unless the motion menu is basically the full video with just buttons on top it gets re-encoded? Certainly sounds like it. I am wanting some image overlays.
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  26. Originally Posted by Killer3737 View Post
    Did some more searching on the adobe forums and think I found the problem:

    1. If you import a pre-transcoded m2v file as the motion menu background asset, and only have button highlights in the Encore menu (this means no text layers or other graphics in the menu PSD), then Encore will not re-transcode that background asset.
    2. If you import a pre-transcoded motion background asset and apply any kind of text, images, or anything at all in the menu besides highlight layers prefixed with (=1), (=2), or (=3), then Encore will have to render those graphics into the background and re-transcode (double compression = very bad).
    So does that basically mean unless the motion menu is basically the full video with just buttons on top it gets re-encoded? Certainly sounds like it. I am wanting some image overlays.
    LOL of course...how do you think something like a PSD overlay would become DVD compliant?

    I build everything into my motion menus. So if you wanted overlays or effects, do that in another program like AE as part of the actual video
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    I don't know really, I thought it would do something clever so the video just sits behind the jpg. Or something.

    I guess I'll just settle for the re-encode then, I wouldn't have a clue how to add the overlays to the video itself.
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  28. Originally Posted by Killer3737 View Post
    I don't know really, I thought it would do something clever so the video just sits behind the jpg. Or something.

    I guess I'll just settle for the re-encode then, I wouldn't have a clue how to add the overlays to the video itself.


    At least 1 encode is necessary. How else do you overlay a jpg on a video? (Even if you disregard menu or no menu, or even if you disregard DVD-Video) . At best, you can smart re-encode (pass through) sections that don't have the overlay with something like videoredo, but those frames within the GOP that have any transformations like overlays require re-encoding

    I always do the design and encoding in other programs. This way you are not at the mercy of Encore doing something you don't like. Like WTF is that 2.35:1 AR ? If you do it in other programs, and just use Encore (or any authoring tool ONLY to author) you get exactly what you want.
    Last edited by poisondeathray; 14th Oct 2011 at 17:57.
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    Yeah I didn't really think that through at all.

    Regarding overlaying before Encore though, where do I start? I know this is going somewhat away from the original topic so a mod can feel free to split it off, but lets say I want an image background with a transparent circular hole in the middle to see the video behind. How would I do that?
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  30. Yeah, that's a different topic, but you have premiere (since you have encore), so it's easy to do .

    Put the video on the track below, and the circle hole layer on the layer above . You need to prepare the hole layer image with an alpha channel (so it's "see through" where the hole is). You could do this in photoshop, gimp etc...probably even premiere's titler. You could even do this in avisynth with overlay() .

    Eitherway, that overlay section has to be re-encoded
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