Audio troubles, with firewire transfer from miniDV cam

[TheBigQuestion]

OK!! I am pretty frustrated at this point. I have also looked all over the internet with no solution. I have transferred and edited videos before with no issues at all, this just started happening with the latest video I was about to edit. I have made no changes to any hardware or software. I checked updates for Windows and Dell. The basic problem is that during the capture process, there is a problem with only the audio. Video is fine. The audio is only being captured a few milliseconds every few seconds. Choppy is an understatement. Just to be sure on everything, I replaced the firewire card and the firewire cable. The audio sounds fine on playback on the camcorder. Music plays fine on my computer through Winamp or Youtube for instance. I've tried eliminating all possibilities!! I even tried a different video editing program and the same thing happened, so I know it's not an issue with my regular software. I'm running Windows Vista, I have plenty of memory, no other issues with computer. Any ideas or suggestions? Thank you.

[hech54]

I have transferred and edited videos before with no issues at all

With the same camera?
Play the transferred files in VLC , or run the captured file through GSpot to tell you exactly what kind of audio/video you are dealing with.

[TheBigQuestion]

Thanks for the reply. It is the same camcorder I have always used. I found the problem I think. I must have accidentally changed the settings on my camcorder to 12 bit instead of 16 bit, but I have no idea how that could have happened. Just now, I changed it to 16 bit and filmed a sample video and it sounds fine for the video/audio capture. Am I screwed now on the video that I taped before? The file shows 32000 Hz in GSpot. It should be 48000 Hz right? I use Sony Vegas software. I have a Canon ZR830. This video is very important. Is there any way to salvage it and still edit it?

[hech54]

You should be able to drag the video file into GoldWave, then save the audio file as 44.1 or 48 (just make it match the 16bit one you made - run it through GSpot as well to make sure it's exact specs).

[TheBigQuestion]

Sorry I'm a little confused by this. I dragged the file into GoldWave and changed it to 16 bit 48 Hz. The equalizer levels didn't change at all though. I tried laying the new audio track in Sony Vegas and it was the same as before.

[TheBigQuestion]

Ah, I just saw the "should" in bold. Thank you for your help. I guess it's not a huge deal to rerecord it, just a pain in the arse. Lesson learned.

[hech54]

Someone else will coma along and advise on the proper settings to go from 12 bit to 16 bit.....just give it some time.

[magillagorilla]

Perhaps yout capture software is expecting 16bit but receiving 12bit. I haven't captured DV in a while. Is there a way to statically set the audio capture bit rate?

If the audio cuts in and out, changeing it to 16bit is not going to help. If you can get a good 12bit capture you can upscale it in SoundForge. You'll want to apply some dithering to smooth out the samples.

Your other option would be to re-record the audio through your sound card directly to 16bit 44.1/48k and remux the audio and video in your NLE.

[aedipuss]

try capturing the 12 bit tape with winDV. it doesn't care what the audio is set at. then you should be able to import the files into vegas and use them. they should show up in the assets bin with the audio listed as 32khz and it will know how to use them.

[edDV]

Sorry I'm a little confused by this. I dragged the file into GoldWave and changed it to 16 bit 48 Hz. The equalizer levels didn't change at all though. I tried laying the new audio track in Sony Vegas and it was the same as before.

I agree WinDV capture is the best way to diagnose this.

Vegas can deal with 12 vs 16 bit audio so that probably isn't the problem. If you import 12 bit audio into a 16 bit Vegas project, Vegas will convert to 16bit. Best to keep the camera set to 16bit stereo for best quality recordings.

You can test the audio/video hardware/software chain with a known good tape. If the problems are limited to that one tape, something went wrong during recording. If old tapes capture fine and the audio from the problem tape can be heard at the camcorder, check the stereo 1/2 vs stereo 3/4 mixer control in camcorder settings. In 12 bit mode, four audio channels can be used. The mixer determines which channels are passed over Firewire. This varies by camcorder, see the manual.

Worse case, if you can't figure this out, separately capture analog audio and match tracks in Vegas.

[hech54]

Isn't there just a way to convert 12 bit audio to 16 bit audio?

[edDV]

Isn't there just a way to convert 12 bit audio to 16 bit audio?

Vegas will do it if you set project and "render as" to 16 bit.

12 bit mode results in 4 audio channels (or two stereo pairs) at the camcorder. DV over IEEE-1394 can only pass two channels at a time. The camcorder settings determine which stereo pair is sent.


PS: "12 bit" mode is sampled 32KHz. Vegas will also resample audio to 48KHz per project and "render as" settings.

[magillagorilla]

Yes hech54 you can upsample 12 to 16bit but the OP said "The audio is only being captured a few milliseconds every few seconds. Choppy is an understatement." This does not sound like a bit resolution issue. The sound track is dropping out and upscaling the bits is not going to fix the problem.

My guess is that the capture software is trying to receive a 16bit signal and is crapping out because the signal is 12bit. Use WinDV and see what happens.

[hech54]

Forget Vegas....forget re-transferring....if you load the original 12 bit audio into Goldwave or Audacity....how do you make it 16 bit? Is it possible or not?

[magillagorilla]

hech54, sorry I'm not directly answering you question again. But in Soundforge you just change the properties of the file or do a save as PCM WAV and select 16bi there. I think the save as area has dithering options. I would guess Goldwave and Audacity have similar options. Heck even Microsoft Sound Recorder lets you change the sample and bit depth of a file.

[aedipuss]

Forget Vegas....forget re-transferring....if you load the original 12 bit audio into Goldwave or Audacity....how do you make it 16 bit? Is it possible or not?

the problem seems to be the vegas capture. if it wasn't set right it might have written the avi at 16 bit audio.

so it's not just a matter of converting 12 to 16 bit which any audio editors would do fine.

[hech54]

hech54, sorry I'm not directly answering you question again. But in Soundforge you just change the properties of the file or do a save as PCM WAV and select 16bi there. I think the save as area has dithering options. I would guess Goldwave and Audacity have similar options. Heck even Microsoft Sound Recorder lets you change the sample and bit depth of a file.

That's what I thought too but wasn't positive. Many years ago I did the same thing as the OP with my Canon MiniDV camera. I forget which software I was using but it too would not touch the 12 bit audio and I was forced to go analog to my DVD recorder with the footage. I now use Magix Movie Edit where I can load DV footage long with an extra audio, mute the DV audio and use the corrected audio(16 bit) audio(for example).

[hech54]

the problem seems to be the vegas capture. if it wasn't set right it might have written the avi at 16 bit audio.
so it's not just a matter of converting 12 to 16 bit which any audio editors would do fine.

You're not understanding me. If someone transfers DV footage to their computer, then LATER finds out they used 12 bit audio(and the audio remains listed as 12 bit on their computer) that is not compatible with their editing software(whatever the hell it is).....just convert the 12 bit to 16 bit and use that audio instead. Just like demuxing to elementary streams for select authoring or editing software that only accepts elementary streams.

[magillagorilla]

hech54, you are correct, it would not be difficult to resample to 16bit. I think that the OP's problem is a transfer issue and he has no audio to work with. This problem is not related to a bit depth issue. We'll see if they try WinDV and report back.

[TheBigQuestion]

Thanks for all the feedback. I tried using WinDV and the same problem is happening with the audio capture. I also tried playing the file after capture with the same result. I think magillagorilla has it right with "I think that the OP's problem is a transfer issue and he has no audio to work with." How can sound be produced if it's not there to begin with? Then again, it sounds fine on the camcorder, so there has to be some way to get it right?. I searched online for 12 bit capture and couldn't really find anything of use. Sony Vegas 7.0 doesn't have any options for audio capture changes in regards to what we're discussing. The main issue here is that I cannot get a clean capture of the 12 bit audio. I also tried Windows Movie Maker just for fun with the same result. One more thing, because I don't think I've fully explained it. I don't have a great knowledge of sound levels and things like that in 12 bit vs 16 bit...but the equalizer levels in vegas, goldwave, etc, all show "flatline" for the majority of audio. I guess that's what I meant when I said, producing sound from nothing. Is the sound actually there, but just needs to be altered in order for it to appear?

[edDV]

Thanks for all the feedback. I tried using WinDV and the same problem is happening with the audio capture. I also tried playing the file after capture with the same result. I think magillagorilla has it right with "I think that the OP's problem is a transfer issue and he has no audio to work with." How can sound be produced if it's not there to begin with? Then again, it sounds fine on the camcorder, so there has to be some way to get it right?. I searched online for 12 bit capture and couldn't really find anything of use. Sony Vegas 7.0 doesn't have any options for audio capture changes in regards to what we're discussing. The main issue here is that I cannot get a clean capture of the 12 bit audio. I also tried Windows Movie Maker just for fun with the same result. One more thing, because I don't think I've fully explained it. I don't have a great knowledge of sound levels and things like that in 12 bit vs 16 bit...but the equalizer levels in vegas, goldwave, etc, all show "flatline" for the majority of audio. I guess that's what I meant when I said, producing sound from nothing. Is the sound actually there, but just needs to be altered in order for it to appear?

So did you check the camcorder manual about selecting the other stereo pair? Your problems are all camcorder related..

[hech54]

Looks like an analog capture is in your future.

[TheBigQuestion]

So did you check the camcorder manual about selecting the other stereo pair? Your problems are all camcorder related..

I found the manual online and checked it out. There is very little info in the audio section. Just 2 very small pages. Don't see anything in regards to selecting the other stereo pair. It just goes over the basic settings. This is a pretty basic camcorder with not a lot of options in the menu. Here is the link to the manual: http://gdlp01.c-wss.com/gds/1/0900011291/01/ZR850_830NIM-EN.pdf

[TheBigQuestion]

Looks like an analog capture is in your future.

I did a search on "analog audio capture" and I see a few things that connect via usb, a pci card, and a capture box. Are you saying that these devices would allow the 12 bit audio to be captured, bypassing the capture software? Only problem is this camcorder has very few inputs, so I'm not sure if some of those would work, or maybe I would need some adapters. I wouldn't want to spend too much on one, given that this won't be a problem in the future. Just this one damn video.

[edDV]

So did you check the camcorder manual about selecting the other stereo pair? Your problems are all camcorder related..

I found the manual online and checked it out. There is very little info in the audio section. Just 2 very small pages. Don't see anything in regards to selecting the other stereo pair. It just goes over the basic settings. This is a pretty basic camcorder with not a lot of options in the menu. Here is the link to the manual: http://gdlp01.c-wss.com/gds/1/0900011291/01/ZR850_830NIM-EN.pdf

12 bit audio controls are shown here

[edDV]

Looks like an analog capture is in your future.

I did a search on "analog audio capture" and I see a few things that connect via usb, a pci card, and a capture box. Are you saying that these devices would allow the 12 bit audio to be captured, bypassing the capture software? Only problem is this camcorder has very few inputs, so I'm not sure if some of those would work, or maybe I would need some adapters. I wouldn't want to spend too much on one, given that this won't be a problem in the future. Just this one damn video.

Just use the AV cable supplied with the camcorder and an RCA stereo to stereo miniplug adapter into computer audio line input. Audacity is good free recording software but you could use Windows recorder.
http://www.majadu.co.uk/twin-rca-phono-to-35mm-stereo-mini-jack-plug-adaptor-75-p.asp

[aedipuss]

maybe something else to try.

since it sounds fine playing back on the cam, it should capture ok. BUT, the tape may start playing back in 16 bit mode, then switch to 12 bit when it encounters it on the tape. try winDV once more but start the tape playback and wait until it starts playing the 12 bit part and you can hear it. then click capture in winDV.

[TheBigQuestion]

Looks like an analog capture is in your future.

I did a search on "analog audio capture" and I see a few things that connect via usb, a pci card, and a capture box. Are you saying that these devices would allow the 12 bit audio to be captured, bypassing the capture software? Only problem is this camcorder has very few inputs, so I'm not sure if some of those would work, or maybe I would need some adapters. I wouldn't want to spend too much on one, given that this won't be a problem in the future. Just this one damn video.

Just use the AV cable supplied with the camcorder and an RCA stereo to stereo miniplug adapter into computer audio line input. Audacity is good free recording software but you could use Windows recorder.
http://www.majadu.co.uk/twin-rca-phono-to-35mm-stereo-mini-jack-plug-adaptor-75-p.asp


[Attachment 8893 - Click to enlarge]

Thank you, you've been very helpful. I'm going to track down those parts and hopefully report back in a few days with the results.

[TheBigQuestion]

maybe something else to try.

since it sounds fine playing back on the cam, it should capture ok. BUT, the tape may start playing back in 16 bit mode, then switch to 12 bit when it encounters it on the tape. try winDV once more but start the tape playback and wait until it starts playing the 12 bit part and you can hear it. then click capture in winDV.

Tried, but no go. Thanks for the suggestion though.

[hech54]

If I still had room for my Firewire card in my computer....I'd record something with 12 bit in my old Canon and experiment further.