VCR Question

[willmington]

Some of my VHS-C / VHS tapes are a bit dark and I wanted to give a standalone VCR player a try to see
what kind (if any) of an improvement there might be. From my research I do understand that getting
the best transfer quality is not only an art but would also require a lot of costly equipment and time.

As regards my VHS-C tapes (mostly JVC EHG shot in SP) in the first instance I wanted a VCR that
would not eat the VHS-C tapes. I have been reading that JVC VCRs are more prone to eating these
tapes and that Panasonic units are preferred.

So question. I have been looking on ebay for a cheapish VCR model (range NV-HD 6xx).
Are these generally more reliable and kinder to / with VHS-C tapes.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Panasonic-NV-HD640-VHS-VCR-/120734047199?pt=UK_ConsumerElec_VCRs...item1c1c4f5bdf

Any other info on this matter would be much appreciated.

Cheers

[orsetto]

The problem with any of the recommended "high end" SVHS is they are all ancient relics now, with a lot of miles on them. It can be difficult to find repair people still working who know how to "tune them up" properly, especially in Europe. The old JVCs from the '80s and early-mid '90s are rather more prone to tape transport issues than some other brands, but in the category we're speaking of (VCR with TBC/DNR feature) your only choices are JVC or the upper-end NV series Panasonics. The Panasonics are a nightmare to shop second hand in Europe: the European model naming scheme is extremely confusing and many more variations were marketed than in North America, where basically it was the Panasonic AG1980 or nothing. I believe in UK the equivalent model was NV-FS200, but there were more "flavors" than in USA so a couple of others may also be decent. Either way, Panasonic or JVC, you are likely to encounter a unit that needs transport tuneup, particularly since your tapes are VHS-C which can be tricky to track even with a brand new VCR. The choice of Panasonic or JVC in your case should be more broadly influenced by which brand made the camcorder used to create these tapes: it would be more compatible to use the same now.

Note the VCR itself cannot do anything to lighten up underexposed tapes or reveal details in shadows. Doing this requires an external Proc Amp with picture controls, or you can sometimes get away with the adjustments available on the CBT100 aka AVT8710 external TBC box. Such camcorder tapes are inherently incapable of being improved much: if you brighten the dark parts, you'll also exaggerate noise and color issues. The very best restoration experts who contribute here, like LordSmurf, generally use a combination of external boxes and computer software filters to try and bring out the best in such tapes. If you are unwilling or unable to invest the time/effort required to learn such skills, it may be better to pay a specialist to restore your tapes than waste time/money attempting to do so yourself. Depends how many tapes you have, and the time/money resources you can allocate. The Panasonic NV-HD640 you are considering is a good midrange model at the current 25 price, but only just: I would not bid much higher than 30-35. It has very sturdy mechanics and is a fairly recent model that tracks well and produces a decent video signal (I have a few of the American-equivalent AG-25xx models myself). The NV-HD640 does not have any noise reduction or TBC circuits, which may limit how much additional brightening you can do with external processors.

[willmington]

Many thanks for your reply and informed comments orsetto.

orsetto said:
The choice of Panasonic or JVC in your case should be more broadly influenced by which brand made the camcorder used to create these tapes: it would be more compatible to use the same now.

The tapes were originally recorded with a JVC camcorder GR-AX680E. I understand from my earlier searches that knowledgeable users advocate using the unit which created these tapes, however that camcorder is now defunct.

orsetto said:
The Panasonic NV-HD640 you are considering is a good midrange model at the current 25 price, but only just: I would not bid much higher than 30-35. It has very sturdy mechanics and is a fairly recent model that tracks well and produces a decent video signal (I have a few of the American-equivalent AG-25xx models myself). The NV-HD640 does not have any noise reduction or TBC circuits, which may limit how much additional brightening you can do with external processors.

I have about 60 VHS tapes (about 50 are VHS-C). I am using that dreaded VCR/DVD Recorder combo (Toshiba DVR20KB) which I know is reviled by the experts here. But the 10 tapes I have dubbed so far (the tapes being about 10-15 years old) have yielded results that are fine and acceptable to me (apart from one or two that are a bit dark / lack detail).

I did try to use Womble's MEPG wizard to lighten some of the darker areas and with a sensitive touch it does improve the situation. I just thought that perhaps with a better VCR recorder, I would be able to improve on the quality of the input signal or at least to see and confirm whether there would be any meaningful improvement with a standalone VCR.

Let me ask you a question. With the added info which I have provided and notwithstanding that I am not seeking perfection, is that NV-HD640 worth purchasing in your opinion and would you say that it would be a meaningfully better input source VCR than the VCR in my combo unit. If possible since you have such a unit (NV-HD640 equivalent) can you tell if is it reasonably safe with VHS-C tapes (I am using a JVC C-P6U adapter).

Any info much appreciated.

Cheers

[orsetto]

Yes, I think the Panasonic NV-HD640 would be safe for your tapes. It has the final revision of the "SuperDrive" transport which was pretty good at tracking tapes made on other VCRs and is gentle/reliable. There is a LOT of info online regarding UK Panasonic transport repair and service, but you shouldn't need to service this recent model if bought in guaranteed working condition from a reputable seller. Your Toshiba combo is not "terrible", but it isn't great, and having the VCR and DVD in one chassis prevents you from adding external processors between them (its always better to get the initial encode as polished as possible before importing into software like Womble). In this "midrange" arena the available second-hand Panasonics tend to be better risks than low or midrange JVCs. At the high end, JVC and Panasonic are evenly matched and it can be hard to decide (many of us own both). At the low end, a recent NV series Panasonic is preferable. "Sharp" brand VCRs are also excellent trackers at a low price, popular among those here with many LP and SLP tapes (they're also good with SP).

The NV-HD640 is a much better-made VCR than the fairly crummy VCR section of your Toshiba: the DVD encoder/recorder in that unit is actually pretty good (at XP and SP) but its let down by a bargain-basement VCR. If you connect the NV-HD640 to the line inputs of your Toshiba combo and record to its DVD section, you should see some improvement. It won't be huge, but it should be a little better, enough to facilitate better post-processing. The NV-HD640 may have a couple of minor picture adjustments on the front panel or buried in a menu: the American version has a "CVC" button on the front panel which offers some detail enhancement options. Make sure the "VHSC>full size" adapter shell you are using is in excellent condition and letting the tape run smoothly: if it drags or misloads it can cause tracking problems.

[willmington]

Most kind orsetto.

orsetto said:
The NV-HD640 is a much better-made VCR than the fairly crummy VCR section of your Toshiba: the DVD encoder/recorder in that unit is actually pretty good (at XP and SP) but its let down by a bargain-basement VCR.

I must admit that on the VHS tapes that I encoded so far and which were shot in good light the results have been fine and certainly acceptable to me. I am using XP mode when recording the DVD (Verbatim DVD-R).

orsetto said:
If you connect the NV-HD640 to the line inputs of your Toshiba combo and record to its DVD section, you should see some improvement.

Apologies for my stupidity, as regards connecting the standalone VCR to my combo I would have used a good quality scart. Is this what you are saying or did you mean using a S-Video with audio RCA (or other method).

A couple of final quick questions if you have a seccy.

1. In the even that I am not able to get a NV-HD640 are the other models (higher numerically eg NV-NH675) safe to go for.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Panasonic-NV-HD675-VCR-TOP-RANGE-Ex-Condition-/310319318493?pt=U...item48407905dd

2. If I wanted to go for a slightly more expensive / higher range VCR than the NV-HD640, any obvious suggestions?

Again many thanks for your kind help

Cheers

[orsetto]

When I said the VCR section of the Toshiba combo was "crummy", I didn't necessarily mean its picture quality: I know a lot of people using these Toshibas casually who are happy with the results. The embedded VCR is "crummy" in the sense of poor reliability and tendency to break down and eat tapes- when it is working properly, its about as decent as any random low-range VCR (not poor, but not great). One must understand that Toshiba has not actually produced half the items it sells under its name since 2006: the combo recorders are made by Funai, for example. Funai makes surprisingly good-performing DVD recorders today, at least at the XP and SP speeds, but their VCRs are are just barely adequate: OK until they break, once they break forget it. Something has to give in order to sell a combo recorder at a bargain price- usually its the VCR durability. If you have been happy with the results so far from the built-in VCR in your Toshiba, you may want to delay buying an external VCR until the Toshiba breaks down or you feel the need to connect proc amps, TBCs or other add-ons between VCR and DVD recorder. The midrange Panasonics you are looking at are fine VCRs, but you will not see a dramatic picture improvement over the built-in Toshiba VCR unless the Toshiba is mistracking badly or has other issues. The Panasonic NVs are probably a bit more adept at handling the VHSC adapter cartridge, because the mechanics are stronger and built to "semi-pro" spec.

Any of the Panasonic NV6xx series will perform roughly the same way: model numbers changed as the years went by but the basic design did not. The 675 is unlikely to be noticeably better than the 640 or 620, but being newer it increases the odds its in good condition. The Panasonic NV-HD6xx series is an odd duck: for some reason these were rarely used much so are often found in excellent condition- I believe most were purchased as emergency backup decks for an NV-SF higher-end unit. To see significant video improvement you would need to move up to the NV-FS200 or a similar JVC model. These are quite a bit more expensive, more likely to require servicing before use, and more likely to be well-used and old. The improvements possible with these higher-range decks are not universally admired: they do a remarkable job of filtering grain, eliminating color noise and straightening distorted verticals BUT at the expense of some loss of realistic detail and an overall "synthetic" appearance to the video. Do not invest in a high-range VCR unless you get an evaluation/return period to decide if you like the results.

Personally, I rotate among various VCRs depending on the tape task: like many others here I keep a Panasonic AG1980 (NV-FS200), a Panasonic AG2560 (NV-HD675) and a JVC SVHS as well as a Mitsubishi DVHS model with JVC-licensed TBC/DNR circuits. This is a lot of money tied up in VCRs, but I am dubbing a lifelong collection of thousands of tapes recorded on a dozen different VCRs. Your situation is more streamlined: 60 tapes, all recorded on one specific JVC camcorder. You should be able to achieve consistently good results with either your combo built-in VCR or one decent external VCR. Regarding your connection question, we do not have SCART in North America so I cannot advise you what cables to use. Normally one tries to use the SVHS connection if it is available on both the VCR output and the DVD recorder input, if those are not available I believe SCART is equivalent to the usual composite/RCA connections (some SCART gear may offer an SVHS-type setting as well, again I do not know how to choose those options because we don't have SCART in USA).

[willmington]

orsetto said:
One must understand that Toshiba has not actually produced half the items it sells under its name since 2006: the combo recorders are made by Funai, for example

Interesting. I cannot say that I am surprised by this rebadge as I often run into this with pc optical drives. Coincidentally, I do have a standalone Funai VHS recorder bought a few years back (cheap low end unit, model 29B-750) and which I have had to connect to the Toshiba combo a couple of times. Once because a full sized VHS home tape gave the 'false copy protection' error and once on a VHS-C tape to eliminate some picture roll at the beginning of the tape and which lasted a couple of secs.

orsetto said:
If you have been happy with the results so far from the built-in VCR in your Toshiba, you may want to delay buying an external VCR until the Toshiba breaks down or you feel the need to connect proc amps, TBCs or other add-ons between VCR and DVD recorder.

The results so far are fine. I can't say happy but to a point satisfied. When I am done copying the 60 or so VHS/VHS-C tapes that I have to DVD, I am pretty much done with the VCR myself (although the youngest of my children still watches some VHS favourite movies).

orsetto said:
The midrange Panasonics you are looking at are fine VCRs, but you will not see a dramatic picture improvement over the built-in Toshiba VCR unless the Toshiba is mistracking badly or has other issues.

The Toshiba's VCR does not appear to be mistracking, although I do occasionally get a horizontal line running down the screen (not sure what that is called).

orsetto said:
To see significant video improvement you would need to move up to the NV-FS200 or a similar JVC model. These are quite a bit more expensive, more likely to require servicing before use, and more likely to be well-used and old.

For me personally, this type of unit would be a no no. I would not even know where to go and have it serviced. I am not afraid to dismantle electronics units (I have had my children's laptops totally dismantled on my kitchen table many times) but VCR's, count me out. Replacement of parts would drive me mad and my wife already wants to leave me because the pc parts I have in the house are according to her intolerable.

Many thanks again for taking the time to provide the info. I think I will give one of those Panasonics NV-HD a try and see what it gives. On the basis of what you have stated, I am not expecting any dramatic improvement but it will be a point of reference.

I did read many threads advocating some external processing units (forget the model numbers) but they were fairly expensive and would also require quite a lot of time spent editing. I guess at the end of the day my opinion on the route chosen to copy is tempered by the fact that such home videos are practically never watched. Apart from having watched my home videos once when originally shot, this is virtually their first outing.

Let me ask you a final question. Quite by accident, I stumbled upon a blog of a person transferring VHS to pc. The user was using a JVC-8965EK and a Canopus ADVC-55. Capturing in .AVI format.

Would this sort of set up make a meaningful difference to PQ? Any informed guess would be fine.

Cheers

[lacywest]

Mitsubishi HS-U748 SVHS VCR Precision Hi-Fi w/ remote

Ebay link >>> http://cgi.ebay.com/Mitsubishi-HS-U748-SVHS-VCR-Precision-Hi-Fi-w-remote-/300538620739

Item number: 300538620739

Remote control does not look like the one I got with my unit ... totally different looking ... no knob on mine.
This is the Super VHS VCR I use ... plays the video tapes I made with a Sharp HI-FI VCR.

He has a 7 day return on it ... you should give it a try ... 88 bucks ... Buy it now ... no bidding ... just ... Buy It now.

This is a good Super VHS Recorder ... I have mine connected up and sits about 4 feet from me.

The reason I bought this Mitsubishi Super VHS unit was because I had a bunch of video tapes I made recording VH1 Classic Video Hits ... I used a Sharp HI-FI VCR ... and it finally just fell apart ... really ... it did ... parts starting coming loose inside. I went to all the stores in Fresno CA ... buying different VCRs ... and finally I went to ... The Good Guys ... and I found the Mitsubishi 748 model ... and it played my Sharp video tapes ... I did not return it.

[orsetto]

I did read many threads advocating some external processing units (forget the model numbers) but they were fairly expensive and would also require quite a lot of time spent editing. I guess at the end of the day my opinion on the route chosen to copy is tempered by the fact that such home videos are practically never watched. Apart from having watched my home videos once when originally shot, this is virtually their first outing.

There are only two types of external processor people typically use with VHS: Time Base Correctors (TBCs) and Proc Amps. The TBC is primarily used for two issues: bypassing copy protection on tapes (not applicable to your camcorder tapes) and maintaining lipsync when dubbing tapes to hypersensitive PC video cards (again not applicable in your case). The Proc Amps are essentially "video equalizers" allowing you to adjust brightness, hue, contrast, color and in some cases noise. You might see some benefit from one of these, as you mentioned some of the tapes are too dark. But cheap proc amps are not the best quality, and good ones like the Sign Videos can cost more than a new television. Since you say you'll probably never watch these digitized tapes again, it may not be worth the expense and effort. Your admission is refreshing: too many people get caught up in the "ultimate quality" game only to stick the DVDs of grandmas silver anniversary on a shelf, never to be watched again. Sentiment over home videos is admirable, but can be exaggerated and lead to a money/time sinkhole.

Let me ask you a final question. Quite by accident, I stumbled upon a blog of a person transferring VHS to pc. The user was using a JVC-8965EK and a Canopus ADVC-55. Capturing in .AVI format. Would this sort of set up make a meaningful difference to PQ? Any informed guess would be fine.

Hard to say. The JVC8695EK is apparently the PAL/UK equivalent of the American JVC 9800, a top-range model with excellent TBC/DNR circuits (note the internal "TBCs" of such vcrs is not the same as an external TBC: the built-in acts as more of an image filter). Such a VCR is likely to be expensive, it is quite old now, and may need service. The Canopus and AVI format could offer great improvement in the hands of an expert user, but a casual user may see little to no improvement at a great increase in time/effort over a DVD recorder solution. AVI files can be huge, they need to be converted for DVD creation unless left on the PC hard drive for PC-exclusive viewing (or moved to a portable HDD-based media player).

BTW the Mitsubishi HS-U748 recommended by LacyWest is indeed a nice VCR, I've had one, but don't know if its the same model number in PAL/UK. The 748 offers only average video playback quality with regular VHS tapes, veering on the grainy side. But it is very well-built, durable, and has a wide tracking range. Very rugged VCR, but I think in UK the Panasonic NV-HD600-series is more easily available, less expensive and somewhat better at regular-VHS playback.

[willmington]

Many thanks for your reply lacywest but am locate in the U.K.

orsetto, again many thanks for your clear opinion. I think I will have a bash with the NV-HD600 series.

As I already stated, once dubbed this footage will probably never be watched by me ever again and I doubt very much that my children, who are on the video, will give them more than one or two outings in their lifetime. At least I am lucky enough that I did capture those moments.

Good Luck to you and all the best with your epic project.

Cheers

[lordsmurf]

it is quite old now,.

Not really.
The HR-S7965EK and HR-S8965EK were manufactured around 2004,
and still sold new as recently as 2007.

[orsetto]

Then I stand corrected. The whole JVC production timeline in Europe is off compared to USA, where most of the desirable SVHS models date from the mid-90s, after which they dropped off the market. If available in good working condition at a good price, the JVC HR-S8965EK becomes more attractive for PAL users given LordSmurfs mfr dates. One should still budget for possible repair issues.