Muxman changes color of SUP?

[kpic]

Have SRT subtitle that I used Subtitle Creator to convert to SUP. I set everything in it as far as color, font, outline, size etc. I then used Muxman (free version) to combine the Video\Audio & SUP. The resulting VOB from Muxman produces nowhere near the color combination that I had for my SUP?

I tried DVDSubedit and again Muxman changed the color of the subtitles. I saw there is a pay version of Muxman that allows changes of the colors but no mention of font or size\position changes to the SUP?

So right now I would have to adjust the SRT to SUP in Subtitle Creator to make the SUP and then in Muxman optionally using the pay version change the color of the subtitle again!

Is there another program that will mux together video\audio\subtitle without changing the SUP itself?

[usually_quiet]

The .sup file itself does not contain any color information. To have the right colors in your finished subtitles you have to be able to import a palette into the authoring program, or create one if the authoring program allows that. Otherwise, the authoring program assigns default colors.

GUIforDVDAuthor using muxman as the authoring engine allows one to import a palette (previously exported in .IFO mode from Subtitle Creator).

Alternately, you can correct the palette in your existing DVD from muxman using pgcedit, but the palette needs to be exported from Subtitle Creator in .clb mode.

[kpic]

Great info, thanks for the help!

[manono]

You're not supposed to get your final colors from Muxman. You change them to what you want after the DVD has been authored. I always 'fix' them using PGCEdit but it can easily be done using DVDSubEdit as well. There's even a guide:

http://download.videohelp.com/DVDSubEdit/Guides/ChangingColors/Guide.htm

[kpic]

I tried to export the .clb using Subtitle Creator (2.31) and importing into PGCedit (I tried both 9.2 & 9.3) unfortunately it did not make changes to the CLUT in PGCedit. I then tried Subtitle Creator version 1.92 and it looks like there is not "export palette" tool in this version??

Anyway I changed in PGCedit the CLUT manually the top four colors (0=white. 1=white. 2=black & 3=dark grey) and the attached pic is what I ended up with. Better than the bright purple I had prior but this does not look so good to me. Does anyone know the assigned CLUT colors in PGCedit??

[kpic]

So it looks like Subtitle Creator ver. 2.2 added the export palette option; opened my subtitle file in that version and exported the .clb (here were my settings in SC & the subtitle looked fine)


Then I imported the .clb in PGCedit 9.3 CLUT and here is what it ended up with;


Did not look right to me but I ended up going with it anyway & here is the final result;


So it seems that export from SC import to PGCedit feature does not work correctly.

[kpic]

Ok in this one I used Subtitle Creator 2.2 and here is my subtitle that looks fine;



After Muxman the final result is;


I did not touch this one at all in PGCedit so it appears for some reason that Muxman kept the color settings? But it does not look as good as the original version seems to be some antialias setting?

[manono]

Anyway I changed in PGCedit the CLUT manually the top four colors (0=white. 1=white. 2=black & 3=dark grey) and the attached pic is what I ended up with. Better than the bright purple I had prior but this does not look so good to me.

The top four colors, left to right, in Muxman are main color, anti-alias color, outline color, background transparent color. You're using them in the wrong order. Your main color has the purple 'leaking' through. I gave the order for the 4 colors when there's an anti-alias color being used, which is what I always use. It's different if you don't create an anti-alias color. It wouldn't take long for you to experiment and find the right combination. Or use DVDSubEdit until you get the hang of it.

Although I use PGCEdit for this, and it takes all of about 30 seconds to accomplish, it's easier to understand what's going on when using DVDSubEdit for this work.

The Clut picture you showed is just the default one. Nothing's been done to it. But the colors aren't being shown as mine are before I make the changes. They're in a different order. It must be something peculiar to SubtitleCreator. I use MaestroSBT for creating the subs for muxing in Muxman,

[usually_quiet]

I am using the final beta for Subtitle Creator, 2.3rc1. Try that instead.

When using PGCEdit, you need to import the palette into the title. Double-click on the title, then use the Import button.

I can't tell you why muxman assigned a palette close to you want in one case but not the other. If you looked at a subpicture with an appropriate viewer there are colors in the subpicture. However they are not the same colors used in the palette. The colors in the palette are mapped to the subpicture to create the appearance you see in subtitles. (I have looked at subpictures, but I can't remember what program I used to do that.)

If you use DVDSubEdit it asks for a .IFO (which contains the palette) after importing the .sup.

[usually_quiet]

I tried to find what program I used to look at subpictures in their actual colors without a mapping it to palette. Although I haven't found it yet, SupViewer can tell you how the various elements in the subpicture are mapped to a palette.

As manono's latest post suggested, the way in which a .sup subtitle subpicture is mapped to a palette isn't standardized. One program that creates .sup subtitles can map the colors using a different strategy than another one uses.

[kpic]

Thanks for the help, I actually used Subtitle Creator 2.3rc1 in the beginning - I thought maybe it was no good on exporting so that's when I tried the older versions. So you are saying the "export" to a .clb and import in PGCedit works correctly for you? I just tried again with 2.3rc1 and PGCedit 9.3 and got the same exact results as I show in the above pics ( I attached the file if you want to try it out?)

So either my export from SubCreator is broke or my import in PGCedit is broke.

You mentioned the CLUT order and said "Muxman" but I think you meant PGCedit? I usually do all my work in PGCedit as well that's why I was trying to figure out a good workflow for this.

Maybe I'll try out the pay version of Muxman and just do everything in there as far as color as it says you can adjust those things in it. I was just trying to cut out the extra steps I am doing here, set the position, font, size, color etc. in Subtitle Creator and then do it all over again at the end. If Muxman could set the font type, position & size as well (not sure the pay version does as there is not mention of it) then I could eliminate the SubCreator step. Or at least if I could get that export palette to work correctly I could keep the same colors without setting it all over again.

EDIT: Do you know why my final version has that jagged look to it? Is that due to the anti-alias being set wrong?

[Moontrash]

i always use dvdsubedit...never had an issue

u may take that srt and send i thru subtitle creator and change the font to the one you want...mux it in..then use dvdsubedit and change it to what you want

tried the clb file...cant even open it

[usually_quiet]

After Muxman the final result is;

[Attachment 7194 - Click to enlarge]

I did not touch this one at all in PGCedit so it appears for some reason that Muxman kept the color settings? But it does not look as good as the original version seems to be some antialias setting?

I wrote this in reply

I can't tell you why muxman assigned a palette close to you want in one case but not the other. If you looked at a subpicture with an appropriate viewer there are colors in the subpicture. However they are not the same colors used in the palette. The colors in the palette are mapped to the subpicture to create the appearance you see in subtitles. (I have looked at subpictures, but I can't remember what program I used to do that.)

As for this question....

Thanks for the help, I actually used Subtitle Creator 2.3rc1 in the beginning - I thought maybe it was no good on exporting so that's when I tried the older versions. So you are saying the "export" to a .clb and import in PGCedit works correctly for you? I just tried again with 2.3rc1 and PGCedit 9.3 and got the same exact results as I show in the above pics ( I attached the file if you want to try it out?)

Without the .sup that goes with the .clb in your .rar file, I can't tell much of anything.

You have made a mistake somewhere. If the sup file you used in muxman came from Subtitle Creator 2.3rc1, the .clb palette exported from Subtitle Creator 2.3rc1 should work correctly when imported into PGCEdit. I have done it dozens of times.

[Edit]I know this is unlikely, but did you perhaps neglect to save the DVD, after importing the new palette, before you exited PGCEdit?

[r0lZ]

Subtitle colours are difficult to understand because they are based on two things: the colours themselves, defined in the IFO CLUT, and that you can change with PgcEdit, and the colour indexes, defined in the subpic stream (and that you can change with DVDSubEdit).

In post #6, we can see that the background colour is transparent, so we can ignore it. (BTW, the opacity value is also stored in the subpic stream.)
The Karaoke colour is not used for standard subtitles, so we can also ignore it.

The remaining 3 colours are colour indexes 3 (white), 2 (black) and 8 (grey). After importing the exported CLB in PgcEdit, they are correctly assigned to the colour squares 3, 2 and 8 (zero based). So, there is no bug in the import or export features of SubtitleCreator and PgcEdit.

So, why is it possible to got wrong colours in the final subtitles? Maybe you have imported the CLUT in a wrong PGC. Of course, you have to import it in the movie PGC. Or, perhaps muxman has changed the colour indexes in the subpic stream when it has muxed it. I'm not sure.
Take also in mind that you can change the colours of each subtitle individually in SC. So, perhaps you have assigned the muxman palette only to a specific subtitle.

Anyway, there is a good method to ensure that the final result will always be correct. Just mux anything with muxman, or use an UNMODIFIED DVD created by muxman. (You don't need to add a subpic stream. Muxing a still BMP as the main movie should be sufficient. Muxman will create a short DVD with its default CLUT in all PGCs.) Now, use SubtitleCreator's Import Palette function, and select VTS_01_0.IFO from the DVD created with muxman. Save that palette for future use in CLB format. Now, when you will load new subtitles in SubtitleCreator, be sure to load that palette BEFORE loading the subtitles, and SC will assign the correct colour indexes automatically. The final result should be correct. (IIRC, SC remembers the last palette you have loaded from session to session, but I'm not sure.)


ANTIALIASING:

SubtitleCreator displays the subtitles by default using the Windows antialiasing. The effect is extremely good, but unfortunately, it cannot be as good on the DVD, as the DVD has only one grey colour to do the antialiasing (while Windows has 254 greys). I strongly suggest to tick the first SC setting: "Display actual output (no AA)", as you will see the subtitles exactly as they will be on the final DVD, without the Windows antialiasing, but with the simple DVD antialiasing.

[aquamack]

I google "muxman subtitle color sup" and come across this thread. Thanks r0lZ for your tutorial about subtitle color, it is very informative. A late answer to kpic, there is actually a way to define your own palette in muxman (free version). I figured out this trick while dealing with MuxMan project file (mxp). The trick is very simple, just open muxman.exe, click File->Save Project, enter "my_palette" and save it to the folder with muxman.exe. This will save a blank muxman project file. Edit my_palette.mxp with notepad, the first section is the default palette of muxman, you may change the color to whatever it should be and save it. Open a new text file in notepad, type

start muxman my_palette.mxp

and save it to the same folder with a name "muxman_my_palette.bat". Next time when you need to run Muxman, double-click the batch instead of MuxMan, you will then load muxman with your own palette.