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  1. Looking for suggestions on a Pioneer DVR / DVD R Combo unit

    My friend has the Pioneer DVR-560 ...I think it is an international model .

    I am looking for a comparable unit ..and what I am looking for in a machine is the following

    PCM Audio
    Color / Picture adjustments
    I would lie to record with an 8000 Bit rate

    Any suggestions


    Thanks
    Ed
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    Your Color/Picture adjustment requirement eliminates Panasonic and basically any other DVDR I've seen, except Pioneer. I can't remember if the classic Toshiba XS had that feature but again I'd really suggest the Pioneers.
    That said, good luck trying to track one down, unless you live in a larger city in Canada where Craigslist and others occasionally have HDD Pios for a decent price. Unless you need the RAM functionality a Sony clone may be a good choice, but you'd have to verify if it had the Color adjustments. I would think it would but I'm not sure. The Sony was really only sold in Canada so you probably won't see one in the states if thats where you live.
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    If you are in the USA, there may be some multi-system Pioneer DVD recorders available at http://www.110220volts.com or www.samstores.com

    I will leave it you to do the legwork to determine if they have the features you want. They won't have an ATSC/QAM tuner since they are not made for sale in the USA. As I understand it, they won't come with a manufacturer's warranty either.

    [Edit]Never mind. They still list them in their catalogs, but if you go tho the product page, they are not available. Pioneer is supposedly out of the DVD recorder business everywhere, not just in N. America, so I guess this should not be surprising.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 17th May 2011 at 18:49.
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    World Import does the same thing. Everything shows for sale until you go to order it and then they say unavailable
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  5. The features you are looking for, combined in one unit, are only available in the Pioneer 450-550-650 of 2007 or the 460-560-660 of 2008. These were only available officially as Canadian models in North America, with the 450 and 460 being Canada CostCo model numbers for units nearly identical to the 550 and 560. If you are very particular about picture quality you should probably overlook the Sony RDR-HX780 mentioned by jjeff: it has the features of the Pioneers but uses the older video encoder from the 540-543-640 series (the the 2007-2008 Pioneers had noticeably better recording quality: the Sony and the 2006 Pioneers are not bad, but their video encodes look a bit mushy around the edges compared to earlier or later models).

    It is not easy to find manual incremental recording speeds and adjustable video settings for both inputs and outputs in a DVD/HDD recorder that is also decent quality and reliable: really only Pioneer ever managed to do this. There were a couple of JVC models from 2004-2006 but they had stunningly poor HDD reliability and are difficult (if not impossible) to repair today. The Toshiba XS series of 2004-2006 was superb, possibly the best-quality recordings you could get from a standalone, but here again staggeringly bad design flaws- this time with the burners which cause no end of grief and are often unrepairable (unless you're insane and/or wealthy).

    A second-hand late-model Pioneer like your friend's 560 will be your logical choice, but as jjeff noted they are scarce in USA and command high prices on Craigs List or eBay: prices of $400 and up for used Pioneers is now the norm. Canadian versions are a bit easier to use than the imports, but otherwise all x50 and x60 Pioneers are nearly identical aside from HDD size and minor music jukebox features (the 450 also lacks DV and USB connectors). You may want to consider giving up your desire for color/picture adjustments: as employed in the Pioneers, the adjustment range is actually very small and rarely has any significant effect on the video recordings. You should have a separate dedicated DVD or BluRay player to avoid playback wear and tear on the fragile recorder burner: most players have a range of picture adjustments. And in any case, all these units deny color/picture adjustment when connected via HDMI, again making the feature less interesting in practical use. If you can give up the picture adjustments, look into a Panasonic import model EH59 or EH69 available from B&H Photo online:

    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/659769-REG/Panasonic_DMR_EH59GA_K_DMR_EH59GA_K_M...B_HDD_DVD.html

    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/659768-REG/Panasonic_DMR_EH69GA_K_DMR_EH69GA_K_M...B_HDD_DVD.html

    If you can give up PCM audio recording as well, you might consider the $198 Magnavox MDR513 available new from Wal*Mart website: http://www.walmart.com/ip/Magnavox-MDR-513H-F7-320GB-DVR-and-DVD-Recorder/14291489. It records at nearly 10K bit rate in XP/HQ mode, and can often reach 7500K spikes in SP mode. Recording quality in those speeds is excellent, matching the Pioneer and Panasonic models. Magnavox also has the handy feature of built in ATSC tuner for widescreen digital broadcasts: if you intend to record off-air, the Magnavox 16:9 digital tuner will kill anything you could do with a Panasonic or Pioneer (from a cable/satellite box or external source, they're all similar). PCM audio is again another dubious specialized feature as employed in DVD recorders: looks good on paper, but in reality is only available at the XP speed and often causes playback incompatibilities when the DVDs are loaded in other hardware. If you want PCM audio primarily for audio recordings, get a dedicated PCM audio recorder or accessory for your PC.
    Last edited by orsetto; 20th May 2011 at 20:36.
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  6. Thanks Guys ....I have been reading a lot about these lately

    I am mainly goi9ng to be using it for converting VHS / SVHS/ Beta/ Super Beta tapes so my main goal is to be able to adjust the image and it seems like any Pioneer will do this even the 320 which doesn't even have a HD ..

    I do want good video and good audio ...so i think Pioneer is the way to go

    Thanks Again
    Ed
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  7. Do not buy any used Pioneer older than the 2006 models, those are all at end-of-life with dead or dying burners that are not easy to replace without expensive specialized service tools and a long hunt for compatible burners. Also, dubbing from VHS directly to DVD without using the HDD as an interim step is painful: the HDD makes everything so much easier, as well as letting DVD media burn at high speed as its designed for. The dirty little secret of DVD recorders is that blank media has not been optimized for 1x "real time burning" for five years now. Direct-to-disc accelerates the death of burners and leads to less-than-stellar burns that may not be archival. The Pio 320 has no HDD.

    The 2003 Pioneer 210 and 510, and the 2004 220/225/320/420/520 series, are also rather poor at tape copying. Their encoders are optimized for off-air tuner recordings, are OK when recording from a cable or satellite box, but have a hard time coping with VHS and Beta signal input. Sometimes they're great, sometimes terrible: it varies unpredictably with each and every tape. This gets really tiresome really fast, leading to the purchase of expensive ($200-500) outboard TBCs and other gear to try and stabilize the tapes signal enough for the recorder to encode it. The 2005 Pioneer 531-533-633 are an odd bunch and the only atrociously unreliable recorders Pioneer made, mostly because of their ill-advised adoption of the now-obsolete TVGOS automated timer software. The 531-533-633 are much much better at tape copying than the earlier models, and their unpopularity does give opportunities for bargains, but I wouldn't pick one unless you get it very very cheap. All these older Pioneers were legendary in their time, mostly for TV recording, but much better second-hand recorders are available. The 2006 540-543-640 and Sony RDR-HX780 got rid of the flaky TVGOS system and adopted a very rugged Sony burner design. They do well with tape copying but as I noted previously the results tend to be a tad muddy. They aren't much cheaper second hand than the excellent 450-550-650 and 460-560-660, you should hold out for one of those.

    I speak from six years experience with DVD recorders and with tape dubbing (I'm still transferring over 2000 VHS and Beta tapes to DVD). Having settled mostly on Pioneers for this work, I must tell you: you need to compromise your idea of what would be the best recorder for you. The market has changed, good recorders have nearly all died off, and the used marketplace is Russian Roulette. The really good used recorders will cost as much as one of the remaining decent new models, if not more, because they have "cult" followings. The used units will also have a lot of miles on them, not good when you're just starting your own long-term project and need a durable machine. Also, I again caution you that the "color and picture adjustments" in the Pioneers are barely functional: they really can't be used to touch up or fix funky tapes. Pioneers have many features worth paying a premium for, but those picture adjustments aren't one of them: they're vestigial at best. If your tapes need color adjusting, you need a dedicated color/picture adjustment box between VCR and DVD recorder, look around for something called a "video proc amp". You sometimes find nice used ones cheap from the likes of Vidcraft, they were very popular in the heyday of VCRs.

    Given the circumstances today, I would strongly, STRONGLY recommend you try the Magnavox 513 or 515 from Wal*Mart. I bought two of these to supplement my Pioneers, and have been astonished at their recording quality. At XP and SP, they match or exceed the dubbing quality of the Pioneer 560, with the bonus that they ignore most copy protection on tapes (this allows a better quality dub since you don't need a "black box" between recorder and VCR). The Pioneers (and the import Panasonics) are more fun to use and have more streamlined operation, but they're priced out of reach for many users. The Magnavox has the same basic features and equivalent recording quality at XP/SP, for a price of only $198 brand-new with 30-day no questions asked refund policy. You will kick yourself if you don't give it an audition: http://www.walmart.com/ip/Magnavox-MDR-513H-F7-320GB-DVR-and-DVD-Recorder/14291489

    I have tested the hell out of the Magnavox to make sure it is comparable to my best Pioneers, and it is. One of the things I really like is that the mfr cooperates with consumers who want to do DIY repairs: you can replace the hard drive without special tools, and the mfr Funai will sell you replacement burners at the wholesale price of $67. Compare this to all other brands, which make you jump thru hoops to swap a hard drive and make you pay $300 to replace a dead burner, if they even still have any. The mfr of the Magnavox makes more than half the recorders sold worldwide in the last few years, spare burners will be available for a long time. You may not ever need one, because the Magnavox has proven very rugged and durable since 2007, but its nice to know you can fix it easily and cheaply should trouble arise later. Do I love the Magnavox like I love my Pioneers? No: the Pioneers are elegant, superb designs made by a company that specialized in DVD burners and recorders. But Pioneer stopped making recorders in 2008, I can't buy them anymore, and they aren't repairable. I have learned to accept the Magnavox and I'm thrilled it exists. Buy one and test it for a month, you have nothing to lose. If you hate it, you can return it for refund and shop the used market for something different. Based on my Magnavox tests against my Pioneers and JVCs, you won't get better results with anything else. The older more expensive machines were better at long-play recording (which we don't use in tape dubbing anyway), and they were nicer to use, sometimes a LOT nicer. But they also cost $499 new in 2008 and $350 today used. The Magnavox at $198 new is an absolute steal, don't miss out because it has no "snob appeal". The Mag video encoder chip is the newest refinement of a design first used in the legendary JVC DRM100 recorder: no one else has it. The Mag is cheap, but its parts are not, and the results are top notch.
    Last edited by orsetto; 20th May 2011 at 20:34.
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    If you need color, brightness, and contrast adjustments you could get a TBC with proc amp features. The AV Toolbox AVT-8710 Multi-Standard Time Base Corrector is around $250. Reading user reviews, the quality control on these could be better, but people who know how to use one seem to like them when they receive a good one.
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    To orsetto:

    Thanks for a very well written piece. I was hoping Wal-Mart Canada would also start to bring in the Magnavox recorders but I've not seen them. Would be great to be able to buy without having to make a special trip across the border. I managed to pick up a Sony RDR-GX330 with very little wear on it from an estate sale. The previous owner did not use it for recording...only DVD playback and sparingly at that. I wanted it only because it is the only recorder I have that does double layer discs as well, it was cheap ($15...the other bidders thought it was a DVD player). Hard drive recorders are pretty rare in the used market here but I have acquired a couple of them in the past couple years. I do try to buy things that I can fix easily. If it's going to be a lot of hassle, then I try to avoid it. The Magnavox units sound like they would make nice additions to my recorder collection...
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  10. oldfart13,

    The Sony 330 has a pretty good rep stateside, it was quite expensive new so getting one in mint condition for $15 was an amazing deal- congrats!

    I'm not sure what is keeping the Magnavox out of Canadian distribution. One would think with your recent transition to ATSC the mfr would flood Canadian stores with it. The only thing I can figure is that the unit is a money loser being kept on artificial life support by Wal*Mart USA, who commissioned it in the first place. Apparently they enjoy having an exclusive on the only DVD/HDD recorder in America. Back in 2007, when all other brands withdrew from the USA dvd/hdd market because they didn't want to add ATSC tuners, Magnavox/Philips stepped up and introduced the only DVD/HDD machines ever made with ATSC tuning. The initial Philips version had teething pains with the tuner, as have all ATSC devices. These bugs were worked out, the Philips was revamped into the Magnavox, and Wal*Mart opted to sell it as an exclusive. For a few years, versions were also sold in Europe under the Philips and Toshiba brands. They were popular for awhile, but sales apparently tapered off and they were withdrawn last year. This leaves just USA/Wal*Mart selling the unit, a situation that implies it may not be profitable but Wal*Mart subsidizes its production for reasons of its own (perhaps as a favor to the mfr, their biggest strategic supplier of electronics).

    I've heard of Canadians asking American friends to just buy one locally and ship it to them in Canada. Another popular route into Canada is to monitor the website of J&R Electronics in NYC. This is a very big player in USA electronics retail and one of the biggest Apple dealers in the country. They have an exclusive deal with Magnavox/Wal*Mart as clearance vendor for refurbished Magnavoxes. About 30% of the folks who buy any DVD recorder return it within 48 hours because they can't understand the instruction book, such units are discounted all over the web as "repacks" or "open box". The Magnavox returns are sent to a mfr depot, screened for proper function, reset to factory specs, equipped with fresh manual and remote, provided with a unique refurb serial number plate, and packed in an official Magnavox refurb carton. This is done on a batch basis every couple of months, to ensure consistent quality control. About every six weeks, J&R receives a pallet of refurbs and notes availability on their website. The 320GB 513 model sells for $169, the 500GB 515 for $219, and J&R will happily ship to Canada. The refurbs come with a 30 day inspection period from J&R and a 90 day full warranty from Magnavox. The batches tend to sell out within a couple weeks, especially the $169 unit which is an unbelievable deal (less than the cost repairing most any older recorder). You can check availability simply by looking at J&R's DVD Recorder page: if they have the Magnavox, it will show up as an available model, if sold out, it does not appear at all: http://www.jr.com/category/video-tv/dvd/dvd-recorders/

    NOTE: I just checked and they are back in stock as of this morning- anyone who needs one, don't delay!

    There are only a few caveats of note about the Magnavox:

    1. The disc tray will not open until you set the clock the first time. This is not made clear in the instruction book, and is probably the number one reason people return them to Wal*Mart, thus fueling the refurb pipeline.

    2. Avoid using the Auto Clock Set features: keep the unit on manual time/date. Auto relies on the very unstable ATSC time code signal, which can make the recorder act wonky.

    3. The tuner is cable-capable, but honestly does not work that well with "boxless" cable service. Cable companies have been really messing with frequencies and other specs of late, this confuses digital ATSC/QAM tuners and causes all sorts of lockups in recorders. The Magnavox, like most ATSC/QAM recorders, is best used for off-air antenna or via line-in from a cable or satellite decoder box.
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  11. Member Seeker47's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by orsetto View Post
    If your tapes need color adjusting, you need a dedicated color/picture adjustment box between VCR and DVD recorder, look around for something called a "video proc amp". You sometimes find nice used ones cheap from the likes of Vidcraft, they were very popular in the heyday of VCRs.
    How does the Sima SCC-2 stack up, in this regard ? Not too long ago, I saw a bunch of them being sold as open box, at a modest price.

    Originally Posted by orsetto View Post
    The Pioneers (and the import Panasonics) are more fun to use and have more streamlined operation, but they're priced out of reach for many users. The Magnavox has the same basic features and equivalent recording quality at XP/SP, for a price of only $198 brand-new with 30-day no questions asked refund policy. You will kick yourself if you don't give it an audition: http://www.walmart.com/ip/Magnavox-MDR-513H-F7-320GB-DVR-and-DVD-Recorder/14291489
    To illustrate your point above, this happens to be up on eBay at the moment:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/Pioneer-DVR-650H-K-DVD-Recorder-HDD-Recorder-DVR-/260783671164?pt=...item3cb7eb077c

    It is touted as being ultra-rare now. Care to make some predictions re the closing price ? I've been seeing quite a few extreme prices there recently (could this be a sign that the economy is finally turning around, at least in certain sectors ?), so I'm gonna guess it will top out at $700. or more.
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  12. The Magnavox 515 mentioned above has a better remothe than the 513 and a larger hard drive. I picked mine up on Amazon. I hear they are back in stock there again.

    I like it and have it hooked up to cable to record the Clear QAM channels off of my cable provider. I like it better than my older model.

    There are ways to check how many hours are on the hard drive and on the Burner if you go the refurb buy at J&R.
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  13. Originally Posted by TBoneit View Post
    The Magnavox 515 mentioned above has a better remothe than the 513 and a larger hard drive. [...]
    This can be argued, some feel the 515 is not all its cracked up to be. The remote has a nicer "feel" with bigger buttons, but its also proven more trouble-prone. The 515 has also had major issues locking up with "boxless" cable, rather more than the 513. At $169, the 513 refurb is the best price/performance/risk bet for someone living in Canada. For USA residents, if the 513 refurbs are out of stock just get a new 513 from Wal*Mart for $30 more. After following the 515 reports closely, I would recommend buying 515s new direct from Wal*Mart in preference to a refurb.

    There are ways to check how many hours are on the hard drive and on the Burner if you go the refurb buy at J&R.
    I don't understand the chatter about this on forums. Who cares how many hours are on it? 90% of the refurbs were returned to Wal*Mart within a week of purchase by clueless buyers who couldn't figure out how to turn the thing on, never mind rack up 1000 hours recording on it. Hard drive hours are insignificant on a model this recent, and the burners are unlikely to have been used much (if at all). If it amuses you to drop into the service screens and see exactly how much use your refurb has had, more power to you, but I think it would make most people unnecessarily anxious. Of the couple hundred refurb reports on various forums, I think only one or two slipped thru that were more than a couple weeks old, and those were obviously well-used the moment they were taken from the carton. The cartons were also not the official refurb cartons: Amazon vendors can sell ordinary repacks, not just the official refurbs from the Magnavox Ohio depot that J&R is limited to.

    In the unlikely event you get a refurb that looks less than 98% new, exchange it: don't waste time checking the service screens. If you get one that looks and smells new, its new, doesn't matter what the "hours" log says.
    Last edited by orsetto; 21st May 2011 at 14:55.
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  14. Originally Posted by Seeker47 View Post
    How does the Sima SCC-2 stack up, in this regard ? Not too long ago, I saw a bunch of them being sold as open box, at a modest price.
    I'd imagine they'd give much more control than the minimal-range sliders built into the Pioneer. Like everything else we discuss here, one has to balance realistic expectations, diminishing returns, cash outlay, and effort. The Sima gear may be sneered at by some, while others will find it perfectly usable. I read about some of the studio-grade proc amps and color correctors a handful of guys are using here, and I laugh my ass off: they're priced second-hand at TRIPLE the cost of a Pioneer or Panasonic DVD/HDD recorder, new they cost as much or more than a MacBook Pro. Thats fine if you're wealthy, or a working professional making a living with this work, but your average person trying to convert their tape library? C'mon. The perfectionism gets a little out of hand sometimes- its VHS, for pitys sake. It will never look like a BluRay when digitized. Movie tapes, TV shows recorded 20 years ago, bootleg concerts: not worth ripping every last hair out of your head. Simplified workflow with good basic gear will give you 80-90% of what a pro can achieve, completely adequate for personal library archiving. For truly irreplaceable family videos or once-in-a-lifetime recordings just hire a pro to do the work for you: you can't hope to match their skills and experience even if you mortgage your house for the gear.

    this happens to be up on eBay at the moment:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/Pioneer-DVR-650H-K-DVD-Recorder-HDD-Recorder-DVR-/260783671164?pt=...item3cb7eb077c

    It is touted as being ultra-rare now. Care to make some predictions re the closing price?
    Probably between $600-700, I'd be surprised to see it go over $700 but stranger things have happened. The 650 and 660 are vastly overrated and not worth the ridiculous premium people pay over the 550 and 560. The only difference between a 550 and a 650 is the 160GB vs 250GB HDD size. Ditto the 560 vs 660, except the Canadian 660 adds a totally useless ethernet port that allegedly allows JPEG and MP3 downloads from your PC (but no videos). Most of those who've tried cannot make it work, the feature is so lame it was dropped from the European and import 660. The 450/550 and 460/560 are much better values, but of course only if you can lay hands on one at reasonable cost. These days, with that 650 being the only recent Pioneer to pop up on eBay in weeks, people will pay anything for any model. Thats why I started buying Magnavox refurbs: at least I know the burners are bulletproof and user-replaceable.

    Talk about price inflation, have you seen what second-hand turntables are going for lately? The minute Technics stopped making the SL1200Mk2 a few months ago, prices for any random turntable that still spins jacked up 300-400%. I mean, junk that sold for $20 a year ago now fetches $150, decent-quality belt drives from the early '70s are hitting $300 and up, and used 15-year-old Technics 1200s that were beat to death in nightclubs are fetching $400+. The last remaining new-in-box Technics are going up $100 a week: beginning of May they were $995, now people are asking up to $1249 for an item that sold new for $379 last year at every street corner electronics shop. Matsushita should see the stampede they caused, reintroduce the 1200, and double the price to $799: they'll make a killing while the current vinyl craze lasts.
    Last edited by orsetto; 21st May 2011 at 14:58.
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  15. Hey, I have a Pioneer DVR-533 that still works great (believe it or not). I saved off some items and finalized the disc. I want to put a couple of things back on the HDD from that disc. I know you usually can't do this unless you did NOT finalize the disc.

    I tried to use a dvd-rw and copy the files from the finalized disc to my computer and then onto the dvd-rw as a data disc. That did not work. Then I tried as a DVD-video files in Nero however it wants to finalize.

    Short of playing it in another dvd player and recording it back on via the input, is there another way I can create a disc to put it back on the pioneer's hdd??? I'm not sure what format they're using. When I don't finalize the disc I can't even view the files on my computer. However the unfinalized disc will play in the pioneer if you press play, you just don't get any menus. Any ideas?

    Thanks,

    MC
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  16. Most DVD/HDD recorders do not let you reverse-copy from DVD back to the HDD, the few that do have very narrow restrictions on how they will do it. Your Pioneer allows the following options:

    1. Copy unfinalized DVDs back to the HDD in real time (re-encoding, lose some quality. lose custom chapter marks), using either the Home Menu>Copy Menu>DVDtoHDD method or by pressing the One Touch Copy button at the top of the remote control, next to the Power button.

    2. Copy finalized DVDs back to the HDD in real time (re-encoding, lose some quality. lose custom chapter marks), by pressing the One Touch Copy button at the top of the remote control, next to the Power button. The Home Menu>Copy Menu>DVDtoHDD method does not work, the button will be greyed out and the screen will read "Cannot use this feature with this disc".

    3. Copy special VR-formatted DVD contents back to the HDD, in high speed lossless mode, preserving custom chapter marks and thumbnails exactly as they originally were on the HDD. I believe DVD+RW discs are always in VR format, but you can also go into the Disc Setup menu and format any blank DVD-R, DVD+R, or DVD-RW as "VR Mode." If you get in the habit of planning ahead, and thinking whether you might ever want to copy something back to the HDD after you delete it, you can make both a finalized DVD-R and a VR-format DVD before deleting such material from the HDD. The DVD-R will play anywhere as a compatible DVD, the backup VR disc is playable only in your Pioneer but has the advantage of being high-speed lossless copyable back to the HDD. I regularly back up my Pioneer HDD to VR discs with anything I may want to re-edit later.
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  17. I was familiar with the first two, but thanks so much Orsetto for the information on VR mode!

    Believe it or not we have 3 Pioneer DVR-531 that still work. My friend has one too that works. Our local cable company (Suddenlink) still provides an analog signal so the tuner and TV Guide feature still works.

    I agree with you they are a b*tch to fix if they ever break. Had to cannibalize the power supply out of my friend's to fix one of his. After we upgraded his HDD he had nothing but problems till it finally stopped working. However the ones that are working work great. We mostly use them for timeshifting and recording things to keep. One of ours has a flakey DVD drive. Had to buy the silver 8x dvd-r. Those seem to work better.

    It's wonderful to be able to record things and save them off to a DVD. Most people are flabbergasted when you tell them you can do that. I still don't understand why that technology didn't make it. Why have a DVR if you can't save anything off it? I guess most people don't keep things. I've also never had a problem with the discs working on another DVD player.
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  18. Member Seeker47's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by orsetto View Post
    3. Copy special VR-formatted DVD contents back to the HDD, in high speed lossless mode, preserving custom chapter marks and thumbnails exactly as they originally were on the HDD. I believe DVD+RW discs are always in VR format, but you can also go into the Disc Setup menu and format any blank DVD-R, DVD+R, or DVD-RW as "VR Mode." If you get in the habit of planning ahead, and thinking whether you might ever want to copy something back to the HDD after you delete it, you can make both a finalized DVD-R and a VR-format DVD before deleting such material from the HDD. The DVD-R will play anywhere as a compatible DVD, the backup VR disc is playable only in your Pioneer but has the advantage of being high-speed lossless copyable back to the HDD. I regularly back up my Pioneer HDD to VR discs with anything I may want to re-edit later.
    I've read -- here probably, though not from you -- that we can't count on those VR recordings to last more than about 2 years. (It is, after all, a totally different recording tech than DVD +/- R . . . as is the DVD-Ram recording that several of the Pio models also did.) I very likely have quite a few of these discs that are more like 3 - 6 years old at this point, though I was never really in the habit of checking up on them periodically. Maybe I should have been. That said, I don't recall an incidence of losing material that became unplayable. What has your experience been with this particular longevity question ? Some of it may be disc-dependent, I have no doubt. I always used the TDK RWs, as they were the only (?) 4x rated ones I found, and my Pioneers seemed to work fine with them. (I don't know if the mfr. source, mfr. formula, or quality on these may have changed, as it has with so many other blanks.) And I tended to use them sparingly, not knowing how much extra strain they might place on the burner, vs. plain old 8x -Rs, where I stuck to TY, or Sony / Fuji during that brief span when they were really TY.

    Originally Posted by orsetto View Post
    These days, with that 650 being the only recent Pioneer to pop up on eBay in weeks, people will pay anything for any model. Thats why I started buying Magnavox refurbs: at least I know the burners are bulletproof and user-replaceable.
    Remind me about the HDDs they use: standard SATA ? Even so, might be a good time to salt away an eventual replacement: have you noticed that the sub-500GB models are substantially diminishing in the marketplace ? If this trend continues, it may become hard to find anything under 1TB.

    Originally Posted by orsetto
    Talk about price inflation, have you seen what second-hand turntables are going for lately? The minute Technics stopped making the SL1200Mk2 a few months ago, prices for any random turntable that still spins jacked up 300-400%. I mean, junk that sold for $20 a year ago now fetches $150, decent-quality belt drives from the early '70s are hitting $300 and up, and used 15-year-old Technics 1200s that were beat to death in nightclubs are fetching $400+. The last remaining new-in-box Technics are going up $100 a week: beginning of May they were $995, now people are asking up to $1249 for an item that sold new for $379 last year at every street corner electronics shop. Matsushita should see the stampede they caused, reintroduce the 1200, and double the price to $799: they'll make a killing while the current vinyl craze lasts.
    There seem to have been recurrent "waves" of this. A lot of it I would attribute to DJs and would-be DJs. There was at least one documentary that came out a couple years ago, about the retro "turntable-ist" movement, spinning, scratching, and as it relates to hip-hop type stuff. Can't recall the title just now. Anyway, that's one sector of it. At the high end, there's a continuing demand that never went away. I saw a lightly used Linn Ekos -- that's just one of the top TT arms, one component of the table itself -- that sold on eBay for $1900. in the past year or so, which I'm sure is far from the record price for that item.
    When in Las Vegas, don't miss the Pinball Hall of Fame Museum http://www.pinballmuseum.org/ -- with over 150 tables from 6+ decades of this quintessentially American art form.
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  19. I should have noted earlier, the Pioneer VR mode DVD formatting trick only works with the 2005 and later machines which have the VR option in their Disc Setup menu. The 2004 and previous models like the 510 and 520 do not have the "format DVD-R as VR" option in Disc Setup. I have never tried it, but if you have both a 520 and a later Pioneer you should be able to format a -R blank as VR in the newer Pioneer and then use it to back up the 520 HDD. The machines are cross-compatible in every other way, its just the 520 cannot create a -R VR disc: I'm pretty sure it could read/write to one, since VR is the Pioneer native internal format.

    Originally Posted by Seeker47 View Post
    I've read -- here probably, though not from you -- that we can't count on those VR recordings to last more than about 2 years. (It is, after all, a totally different recording tech than DVD +/- R . . . as is the DVD-Ram recording that several of the Pio models also did.)
    You might be mixing up two separate but related issues: RW discs being more perishable than R discs, and VR mode.

    VR is a file format, it has no relation to disc durability. A -R or +R formatted to Pioneer VR mode is as archival as the same discs formatted to standard DVD video mode. Its just a coincidence that DVD+RW happens to use a variation of VR mode as a default on all recorders, because it was the last disc type to come out and was engineered specifically by Philips to be editable across all machines and not require finalizing. DVD-RW uses the normal "video" file system that needs to be finalized for compatible playback, as does -R and +R. The +RW and -RW, like CD-RW, by their eraseable nature are not as archival as -R and +R. I don't think its as bad as the 2-3 years you suggest, they probably hold up fairly well for quite a long time in careful storage, but I wouldn't depend on them for my library. They're a necessary evil for recorders without HDD, but with our Pioneers or Magnavoxes one rarely needs an RW except in special circumstances.

    I am repeatedly flamed for saying that by PC gearheads who insist on moving their recorder videos to a PC for ripping and re-authoring: I see their point, but also think its exaggerated. Their argument is they just need the disc to transport files, they want to be able to erase the carrier disc and reuse it, its a "green" way to go, etc. My argument is, why the hell bother? If its important enough to move to your PC and reauthor, its important enough to keep the original recorder disc in case you need to redo it in futrure, so just do the entire project on -R and save it all. -R is cheap, and causes less stress on the recorder burner than RW, and as long as you're not throwing them into a landfill retaining an extra -R is equally "green". But then, I'm not a gearhead- I have a half dozen DVD/HDD recorders because I can't friggin stand the HTPC concept. TV should be recorded as our maker intended: on a standalone box, dang it!

    DVD-RAM sort of combines the virtues of R and RW: its both eraseable and archival. A top quality RAM disc in theory is more archival than even an R disc, because of the different RAM disc construction and recording layer. In practice many RAM discs seem to attract or generate a weird film of grime that causes apparent disc failure until you carefully wash it off with dish soap, and of course aside from Panasonics entire lineup RAM is not broadly compatible with random playback devices. RAM is the most easily editable disc, video can be manipulated exactly as if it were on a hard drive. Instead of VR, it uses VRO, yet another file format. In the Pioneers that are RAM-compatible (all models after the 531-533-633), RAM discs function like VR-format DVDs: contents can always be high-speed-lossless copied back and forth from the HDD. For a awhile I was using RAM discs for my "live" HDD backups, but they're very expensive and when I realized I was rarely erasing them I opted to start formatting normal -R discs as VR instead.

    The Magnavox, unfortunately, has no such provision for "live" HDD backup at all: once you copy a recording to DVD and delete it from the HDD, you can never restore it. Most users would never think of such a feature, so its understandable Magnavox does not include it, given the remarkable $198 pricetag one can't expect everything we got with our $498 Pioneers. The Magnavox does have equal video quality and all the most important DVD/HDD features: it trades some of the more esoteric or "luxe" features for a bargain price, ATSC tuner and easy/cheap repairability.

    Remind me about the [Magnavox] HDDs they use: standard SATA ? Even so, might be a good time to salt away an eventual replacement: have you noticed that the sub-500GB models are substantially diminishing in the marketplace ? If this trend continues, it may become hard to find anything under 1TB.
    The Mags use standard SATA drives, within certain limits for power draw which mostly apply to server HDDs you would never install in a recorder anyway. It might be wise to buy and reserve a few 500GB SATA drives as spares, as you say time marches on and by next year 1TB will likely be "entry level" and the smallest you can get. AFAIK, most recorders made since 2006 will accept up to 2TB HDDs, they just won't recognize the full capacity. At a certain point they just default format the drive at whatever their max OS firmware can do (250 GB, 500GB, 1TB, etc).
    Last edited by orsetto; 24th May 2011 at 12:42.
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  20. Member
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    Originally Posted by Seeker47 View Post
    Originally Posted by orsetto View Post
    3. Copy special VR-formatted DVD contents back to the HDD, in high speed lossless mode, preserving custom chapter marks and thumbnails exactly as they originally were on the HDD. I believe DVD+RW discs are always in VR format, but you can also go into the Disc Setup menu and format any blank DVD-R, DVD+R, or DVD-RW as "VR Mode." If you get in the habit of planning ahead, and thinking whether you might ever want to copy something back to the HDD after you delete it, you can make both a finalized DVD-R and a VR-format DVD before deleting such material from the HDD. The DVD-R will play anywhere as a compatible DVD, the backup VR disc is playable only in your Pioneer but has the advantage of being high-speed lossless copyable back to the HDD. I regularly back up my Pioneer HDD to VR discs with anything I may want to re-edit later.
    I've read -- here probably, though not from you -- that we can't count on those VR recordings to last more than about 2 years. (It is, after all, a totally different recording tech than DVD +/- R . . . as is the DVD-Ram recording that several of the Pio models also did.) I very likely have quite a few of these discs that are more like 3 - 6 years old at this point, though I was never really in the habit of checking up on them periodically. Maybe I should have been. That said, I don't recall an incidence of losing material that became unplayable. What has your experience been with this particular longevity question ? Some of it may be disc-dependent, I have no doubt. I always used the TDK RWs, as they were the only (?) 4x rated ones I found, and my Pioneers seemed to work fine with them. (I don't know if the mfr. source, mfr. formula, or quality on these may have changed, as it has with so many other blanks.) And I tended to use them sparingly, not knowing how much extra strain they might place on the burner, vs. plain old 8x -Rs, where I stuck to TY, or Sony / Fuji during that brief span when they were really TY.
    Last week I found a Verbatim DVD-RW I recorded in 2006. It was still readable and playable. I was also able to use it again for a new recording. However, I too would not trust DVD-RW for archival storage, nor or DVD-RAM either. Both use a phase change medium in the recording layer, which is not as stable as dye-based recording media for permanent storage.

    I'm one of those PC gearheads who uses RW discs to be green. I have one DVD recorder, and it is DVD-only. I don't archive the original recordings on DVD anymore. I decided some time ago that if I did not want to be found crushed to death under a collapsed mountain of DVDs one day, I should only save the edited recordings. (Slight exaggeration, but space available for DVD storage is limited.) I use the PC route because it is the only way I can keep recorded TV shows in the same series together and in order without buying more DVD recorders.

    DVD-RAM has one troublesome issue for those who use a PC. DVD-RAM allows file fragmentation, but other types of DVD media do not. While many programs can read VR-mode recordings on DVD-RAM discs, few will read them correctly if the files are fragmented. I had a couple of DVD-RAM discs like that. Cyberlink's PowerDVD and PowerDirector were the only software out of 10 that I tried that succeeded in playing or copying these discs correctly, although the DVD recorder that made them had no difficulty playing them.
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  21. I had a Pioneer 650 H , very nice machine but if you get a AVT8710 and a good panasonic 1980P VCR and if that does not suit you then look for a jvc vcr with tbc/dnr, a JVC dvd recorder would be best but seems hard to find , so opt for a modern magnavox or philips 3575/6.

    The Pioneer adjustments were not "real time" with the avt 8710 you can see what its adjusting and monitor before recording.

    I found the hard drive units a bit of a pain, record to dvd disc and take to the pc and edit there.
    PAL/NTSC problem solver.
    USED TO BE A UK Equipment owner., NOW FINISHED WITH VHS CONVERSIONS-THANKS
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