HDCP strippers

[usually_quiet]

Yes, for most people it will be, but sooner or later and especially after a few years when hdcp on bd over analogue is not allowed to be made or sold anymore, people are bound to use hdmi if they can't use analogue anymore when those are the only interfaces available. You already can see this with the new Playstation 3 K-model. They got rid of hd over analogue to comply the agreement that the aacs have put up.
This will be the start that people are looking for alternatives and create open source projects for firmware and apps that work on specific chipsets that can control the in- and output of hdmi. It's always been like this and I've been in few projects as this myself.

What exactly do you mean with the last two sentences?
- Do you mean that the latest drivers get rid of the screenrecording (using dx in their software) using 3rd party software (with other words, that they block another instance using directx)?
- What do you mean with that the card can't record hd audio? Do you mean the software or the chipsets on the card (for both analogue as digital)?
I'm confused what you are saying here, cause they claim they can and I've seen prove in the form of footages that show the card CAN record hd audio: 1) Using component, 2) using hdmi and 3) using hdmi with hdcp using 3rd party recording the window in their software.

I'm looking forward for your reply.

The vast majority people will never care whether they can record HDCP protected material from HDMI or not. It is just a relative few people that are interested, not enough to drive a revolution or sufficiently fund open-source projects.

The only people I have found who want to make permanent copies of HDTV shows for themselves are other forum members. I don't know a single person in real life that wants to do that, and time shifting TV can be accomplished using other methods that are much simpler for the average person to manage. Not everyone wants to record HD gameplay either. Copying Blu-Ray discs is better done using software.

Such a project would likely run into some legal difficulties too.


The AVerTV HD DVR PCI-e available in the US only provides stereo audio, not 5.1 or 7.1. This is the device I am referring to http://www.avermedia-usa.com/AVerTV/Product/ProductDetail.aspx?Id=482&tab=FAQ

I'm not talking about screen recording. I'm talking about recording the HDCP-protected video directly from the card. Cauptain, one of our members, does that.

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/333778-AverTV-HD-DVR-Some-questions?
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/335793-AverTV-HD-DVR-drivers

[Casio1987]

However, the card doesn't allow recording HD audio. It isn't a matter of drivers. The card lacks the necessary hardware to provide that.

After further research, I've yet to see an issue like this for the card (AVerMedia AVerTV HD DVR). I do think the card does have a chipset (adc) for the audio, because otherwise it's impossible to get any sound from the card at all via the composite stereo cables, as well as digital via hdmi (which would ofcourse be handled by the hdmi controller), don't you agree?
The prove is found on youtube, recorded gameplay as well as "live" reviews.

Don't you mean another card, the "Blackmagic Design Intensity Pro HDMI"?

But back to your reply:

Reverse engineering something like that ...

It isn't truly necessary either. There already is...

Well, it's necessary to update the key when the current ones get revoked for new devices.
Otherwise there will never be a handshake between the old key and the new key and this card will be useless!

That's why I think it's important to know where the master key is implemented, so that people don't buy this card for nothing when they key gets changed. Not only to be "futureproof" (peace of mind), but also the ability to putter with it later as well as nothing is more fun to tweak things like this in your spare time if there is something to strive for, don't you agree?


Does anybody have tested the "AVerMedia AVerTV HD DVR" using 3rd party software with hdcp on the input?
If so, in what program and what was the result?

If it's black, the key might be hardcoded into their software and we can inject the new code into it, disassemble it or modify an existing 3rd party software project with relatively ease instead of knowing the opcodes of the chip used, without having the resources.

[Casio1987]

Yes, for most people it will be, but sooner or later and especially after a few years when hdcp on bd over analogue is not allowed to be made or sold anymore, people are bound to use hdmi if they can't use analogue anymore when those are the only interfaces available. You already can see this with the new Playstation 3 K-model. They got rid of hd over analogue to comply the agreement that the aacs have put up.
This will be the start that people are looking for alternatives and create open source projects for firmware and apps that work on specific chipsets that can control the in- and output of hdmi. It's always been like this and I've been in few projects as this myself.

What exactly do you mean with the last two sentences?
- Do you mean that the latest drivers get rid of the screenrecording (using dx in their software) using 3rd party software (with other words, that they block another instance using directx)?
- What do you mean with that the card can't record hd audio? Do you mean the software or the chipsets on the card (for both analogue as digital)?
I'm confused what you are saying here, cause they claim they can and I've seen prove in the form of footages that show the card CAN record hd audio: 1) Using component, 2) using hdmi and 3) using hdmi with hdcp using 3rd party recording the window in their software.

I'm looking forward for your reply.

The vast majority people will never care whether they can record HDCP protected material from HDMI or not. It is just a relative few people that are interested, not enough to drive a revolution or sufficeiently fund open-source projects.

The only people I have found who want to make permanent copies of HDTV shows for themselves are other forum members. I don't know a single person in real life that wants to do that, and time shifting TV can be accomplished using other methods that are much simpler for the average person to manage. Not everyone wants to record HD gameplay either. Copying Blu-Ray discs is better done using software.


The AVerTV HD DVR PCI-e available in the US only provides stereo audio, not 5.1 or 7.1. This is the device I am referring to http://www.avermedia-usa.com/AVerTV/Product/ProductDetail.aspx?Id=482&tab=FAQ

I'm not talking about screen recording. I'm talking about recording the HDCP-protected video directly from the card. Cauptain, one of our members, does that.

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/333778-AverTV-HD-DVR-Some-questions?
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/335793-AverTV-HD-DVR-drivers

Thank you for your reply.

That's true, but for the ones that do care, they are trying to limit their options to capture for example quality footages. Ofcourse you can capture it with a videocamera, but for most, quality matters. The use of hdcp is not always applied ethically right. If I want to record personal or my own work, where the stream goes over hdcp, a changed hdcp key will prevent me to do that with this card. And I, for one, do care about quality and gameplay footages, because when you have been granted access to make a video of a copyrighted game, you still can not do that in the last scenario described.
To give a dramatic example: You bought bread and it's locked in a box with the key inside it. How would you feel?

My ideas don't cross your laws, nor mine. I've the right to record my own work. Even the sale of the HDFury is allowed, as far as I know.

Your feedback cleared up my confusion, thank you. I'll (continue) to read your supplied links. They look interesting.

[usually_quiet]

My ideas don't cross your laws, nor mine. I've the right to record my own work. Even the sale of the HDFury is allowed, as far as I know.

Your feedback cleared up my confusion, thank you. I'll (continue) to read your supplied links. They look interesting.

Making products that circumvent HDCP probably is illegal in the US due to the DCMA. The HD Fury can't legally be sold in the US either. It not only likely violates the DCMA, but is also considered an unlicensed product, since the terms of the HDMI license specifically forbid making such a device.

[Casio1987]

My ideas don't cross your laws, nor mine. I've the right to record my own work. Even the sale of the HDFury is allowed, as far as I know.

Your feedback cleared up my confusion, thank you. I'll (continue) to read your supplied links. They look interesting.

Making products that circumvent HDCP probably is illegal in the US due to the DCMA. The HD Fury can't legally be sold in the US either. It not only likely violates the DCMA, but is also considered an unlicensed product, since the terms of the HDMI license specifically forbid making such a device.

I see, thank you for replying.
The links you have provided contains valuable information. I've read it all with their relevant referrers and came to the conclusion that the master key is stored in:
1) The program or any dependencies software related;
2) The rom (where it's hardcoded that the key will be sent to the software when it asks for it).

It's likely to be #1, but I don't exclude #2, since they could apply some sort of protection by using this method plus adding an encryption. Anyway, the key for this encryption is persisent in the package, so no big deal if you can get your hands on the chipset's ide and the opcodes, except it would take a lot of time to find it's actual location in this case by looking on two locations. Also, no big deal if a checker is present, because we can spoof it.
The first method would be ideal, since all you have to do is stepping in a disassembler when the event of hdcp rx fires, get the address and change the data.

Well, I guess this is all I wanted to know. I'll continue my research when this card arrives, so I can analyze it further.

It would be great if they released a 1080p/60 hdmi input in the future with hdcp support and better, to give developers an ide for their chipsets with some documentation.

[Brad]

Now I'm amazed that still no one have mentioned the product "AVerMedia AVerTV HD DVR", which is for sale at a relatively cheap price.
It's basically a pci card with a hdmi input and -output. It can display hdcp content, but not record it.

usually_quiet has cleared up most of this, but I'd just like to point out that the card doesn't have any output unless you count via the PCIe bus. The two ports are inputs, one HDMI and one for their proprietary breakout cable. The card is also limited to 1080i, so better solutions will be preferred in the coming years for quality hounds, anyway.

When presented with 5.1 LPCM input over HDMI, it still captures only two channels: Left-front and Right-front. When you attempt to bitstream DD or DTS, the card just captures silence. I recently tried forcing DD+ bitstreaming and I did get some noise recorded, but I don't think it was recording the full signal as there were too many periods of silence compared to the amount of data being transmitted. In any case, there is no software to unpack DD+-WAV like there is for DD-WAV, so the recording is useless.

Does anybody have tested the "AVerMedia AVerTV HD DVR" using 3rd party software with hdcp on the input?

Oldest drivers: black until AVerMedia's software is opened in the background. Newer drivers: black regardless. Newest drivers, intended for another AVer card: black screen with large white text saying "HDCP".

Are you a programmer? They previously offered an SDK for one of their similar cards but now I can't find it on their site, only the manuals and such. I think you will find that the only way to alter the HDCP handshake would be by writing a whole new driver.

[Casio1987]

usually_quiet has cleared up most of this, but I'd just like to point out that the card doesn't have any output unless you count via the PCIe bus. The two ports are inputs, one HDMI and one for their proprietary breakout cable. The card is also limited to 1080i, so better solutions will be preferred in the coming years for quality hounds, anyway.

When presented with 5.1 LPCM input over HDMI, it still captures only two channels: Left-front and Right-front. When you attempt to bitstream DD or DTS, the card just captures silence. I recently tried forcing DD+ bitstreaming and I did get some noise recorded, but I don't think it was recording the full signal as there were too many periods of silence compared to the amount of data being transmitted. In any case, there is no software to unpack DD+-WAV like there is for DD-WAV, so the recording is useless.

Yes, you are right. There are two inputs, instead of one being an output, my mistake.

usually_quiet reminded me of the stereo audio input only, unfortunately. It's not a biggie for me, as I also channel the fronts to the rears in my 5.1 setup, although it would be nice to have it over 5.1 lpcm instead.
It sounds like the chipset can't process anything other than stereo, which is a pita, since other products on the market even have toslink interfaces.

Oldest drivers: black until AVerMedia's software is opened in the background. Newer drivers: black regardless. Newest drivers, intended for another AVer card: black screen with large white text saying "HDCP".

Are you a programmer? They previously offered an SDK for one of their similar cards but now I can't find it on their site, only the manuals and such. I think you will find that the only way to alter the HDCP handshake would be by writing a whole new driver.

Yes, I'm a software engineer from age six. I found a few sdk's, but they come packed with other models, unfortunately.
I hope the handshake where it fetches the client hdcp key is not in the driver binaries. Then I need the source code, which I doubt they would give or write everthing from scratch, where I lack the time severely for. I've created a modified ndis driver in the past where I could block and modify incoming / outgoing packets on a nic and it toke my a while to get it right.

We will see soon where the key resides, then I will alter it and see what happens and then I need to document everything. Hopefully someone in the future with advanced electronic skills can then put together a working devkit circuit board with hdmi in- and output! All for dyi ofcourse and then we won't be limited to overpriced products anymore, although, this card is not that expensive I've got to admit.

EDIT:
Argh, it's getting late. Now that I've reread your reply after posting my last reply, it's interesting to see that the new driver gives a notification in the screen when hdcp is being received. Hmm, I've got to compare both drivers and debug the old driver, but this is not going to happen until I receive the card, so I can set up hooks. This will lead me to the key.
Thank you for your feedback!

[Casio1987]

Alright, I know where the key resides.

The C027 model (hd pvr) uses the chipset "Silicon Image 9011" for the hdmi rx, with a decrypter AND pre-programmed HDCP key in a PROM... This means this chip needs to be replaced by a newly preprogrammed PROM in case the key gets revoked, which makes this model useless.

So I was looking for another model and discovered a newer model, the C729 (the hd pvr ii), which seems to have a much better pcb. I see a heatspreader and no capacitors, unlike the C027.
This capture card uses the chip "IT6603" for the hdmi rx, with preprogrammed key too. It's unknown if this is again a prom.
In the description "Users of the IT6603 need not purchase any HDCP keys or ROMs". So I'm wondering: 1) Do not need or 2) Can not.

Anyhow, it seems impossible to reflash the C027, so you need to order a new prom from the manufacture with a valid key.
For option 2... this might be the same or with a little bit of luck it's a eprom, BUT then we need to have access to the IDE, otherwise it's still useless and still need to order a new rom with a valid key. If the proms aren't preprogrammed, you probably have to pay a big price for the ide, samples and the license for the hdmi decrypter and key... Plus, you need to have skills in getting the chip in and out, especially if its glued with epoxy resin.

I wished the key was a layer higher, so that we could have controlled it within the more accessable controller using a firmware update, but then, as I've just discovered, it would violate the agreement of implementing hdmi in the first place...

I came to the conclusion that it's not worth it to replace the key on a capture card where its key is revoked.
It's better to create a hdcp stripper yourself or to buy a new product. The HDFury might be an option, but it's expensive and in case of the key getting revoked, you have to return it to the manufacture.

Pfft, pirates always will find a way to what they wanna do and the legit consumer is the victim, paying more and more. Meanwhile, those "smart" guys that are trying so hard to create protection are being payed by the corporations. But don't those last mentioned parties understand that they are doing more harm then good. The only real winner is the creator of this mess, by getting it's loan. Corporations should stop paying out and come with a new strategy, the business strategy Steve Jobs had...
Rights of consumers get flushed down the toilet, when a judge is incompentent enough for a certain case and all those corporations take that opportunity to adapt their agreements with the consumer, if it can help them in any way, even when many other judges have verdicted the complete opposite. Maybe in the future, you have to pay fees for turning on your monitor. Who knows...
Ohh well, DisplayPort is coming. Until the next protection folks! Let's burn some more money!

[mufunyo]

Ohh well, DisplayPort is coming. Until the next protection folks!

DisplayPort is already here and it supports HDCP

[usually_quiet]

Ohh well, DisplayPort is coming. Until the next protection folks!

DisplayPort is already here and it supports HDCP

Yes it does, but it also supports DPCP, which uses an even stronger form of encryption. I think Casio1987 is referring to DPCP.

[Seeker47]

I may not need a solution of this type right at the moment, but if Casio1987 and others are working on ways to defeat this crap -- even on a hobbyist or "proof of concept" level -- I have to regard that as a good thing. To any of them I would say: Please keep at it, and post something if & when there are significant developments.

[Casio1987]

Yes, I mean DPCP, sorry for the confusion.

I've contacted the various manufactures of the chips (silicon being most important), but they don't provide the ide, manual, nor supply their components to consumers. You can only get them from retailers / 3d party, but then you still need to get access for the ide, which cost a fortune.
Even developer kits (pcb with hdmi chip and controller) are too pricey for me (> $500,-), just for having a kit with hdmi 1.3, where silicon already has a 1.4 hdmi chip ready (http://www.siliconimage.com/products/product.aspx?pid=122), but comes ofcourse with ide, manual and samples.

Now I can only think of two solutions:
1) Replace PROM which is holding the key on the pcb (need to reball solder joints or redo epoxy resin for a new prom);
2) Get your hands on a devkit which does have a hdmi receiver chip, hdmi hdcp key decryptor chip and hdmi hdcp key chip (eprom / eeprom) (I think that the decryption and key can also be done on pc, but this would violate the agreements, which clearly stated that the decryptor has to be in a chip on the pcb).
3) Cracking the driver (debugging and disassembling), but this would be way too time consuming - since a simple binary diff on working and non working driver results in massive list of addresses being altered - if you don't know which address is being fetched for a certain opcode to allow the hdcp stream. This only applies to a driver which allowed the hdcp stream in the first place, rendering cards with non working drivers only useless. You can try hooking, but good luck with that, it's probably not going to happen.

I hope the prices for hdmi devkits will drop soon, just like for the usb dev kits, which seem very very popular nowadays. Then you have "total" control of the hdmi content. Example would be a nice proxy between hdmi hdcp source and hdmi non compliant hdcp destination.
But it's probable not going to happen for a while, where we can just buy a devkit for $30,- to get rid of this hdcp mess.

#1 seems easiest, but this only works for cards that are hdcp compliant and a driver which supports streaming this content.
#2 seems best, but costs are high and you need to master the api for the chip's ide and knowing how to write drivers. For a costeffective (and fun experience!!) solution regarding hdcp strippers, this would be the winner imho.

[Brad]

Has there been a single confirmed HDCP key revocation? I think AACS keys have been revoked, forcing player upgrades, but I haven't heard any news on HDCP. After the master key was leaked it seems like a pointless headache for them to bother.

[Casio1987]

Has there been a single confirmed HDCP key revocation? I think AACS keys have been revoked, forcing player upgrades, but I haven't heard any news on HDCP. After the master key was leaked it seems like a pointless headache for them to bother.

Hmmm, I've did a quick google search, since I never heard of this either and found a user who thought that the hdcp key from his tv got revoked. Guess what... I owned the same model and I experienced the same problem! I've played on the PS3 for quite a while on my old 40" inch Samsung lcd tv, until some day (I believe I updated the firmware on my PS3, I don't know for sure) I didn't get any signal.

I didn't bother too much at that time, cause I didn't know that hdcp keys could actually be revoked at that time. I swapped several hdmi cables, without result. I hooked up the same cable on my pc monitor and it worked. I had borrowed two other PS3s to test and guess what... they all didn't work.

I did however e-mailed and mailed Samsung customer service about it. It's one of the worst customer service I ever dealt with in my entire life. Feedback was slow, not to the point and they were stalling, up to the point that my warrantee was gone (it was over 6 months of cummunication through e-mail, because by telephone, it was hard to reach someone and if you had someone on the line, they didn't know anything about the issue!!). I didn't care that much, since I was busy with school and had two jobs. Time was limited.

I'm actually pretty pissed that I just discovered that it might be a hdcp issue and that Samsung can't take it's responsibilites in a professional fashion.

Maybe they did revoked the keys because of moome and the german hdcp stripper? Well, I'm pretty sure I'm a casualty of this whole scenario, since this would be the most logical way to explain my old situation.

Can they actually do this, without notifying their customers? Is this legally approved? This is really odd... I never signed an agreement that they could do whatever they wanna do to make my devices go brick whenever they want to do this.
I'm going to research this further and will look for juridcal ways for compensation or a (class) lawsuit, if I'm really a casualty of their nonsense.

And I agree, after the master key, it's pointless for them to do so. But they can punish fair people, cause they actually got nothing to lose soon. I hope devkits with hdmi and hdcp will come cheap so that everyone can make hdcp strippers. I'm actually pretty disappointed in this whole hdcp, and more in particular, drm scam.

And I've read somewhere that AACS approves it to defend their drm, even if it costs human lifes. This organization should be banned. How can one tolerate this? Only by pure power? I think many of their things are violating laws, but does anybody stand up?

[Seeker47]

I didn't bother too much at that time, cause I didn't know that hdcp keys could actually be revoked at that time.

I did however e-mailed and mailed Samsung customer service about it. It's one of the worst customer service I ever dealt with in my entire life. Feedback was slow, not to the point and they were stalling, up to the point that my warrantee was gone (it was over 6 months of cummunication through e-mail, because by telephone, it was hard to reach someone and if you had someone on the line, they didn't know anything about the issue!!).

I think fellow VH member Orsetto has warned us a couple times that this company has lousy support, does not respect standards that are of benefit to its customers (as compared to those that benefit itself or the industry) or care a rat's posterior about said customers, and may float sudden changes on them without notice. I have only dealt with customer service on one occasion -- in regard to one of their Blu-Ray players -- and their response in that case was quick and to the point. However, my call to them had to do with regular, forced firmware updates that I could not opt out of, one of which crippled the unit for awhile because of a bug in the new firmware code. It seems like the only way to step off of their firmware merry-go-round is to disconnect the player from the internet -- and then, of course, there goes your streaming Netflix and other services. This seems pretty much of a piece with your key revocation scenario. My immediate problem back then did get sorted out by the following FW update, but it did not leave a particularly good feeling in its wake. I had been actively considering the purchase of a Samsung laptop, and a Samsung refrigerator / freezer, but now I think it might be wise to avoid further dealings with this company.

[Casio1987]

I didn't bother too much at that time, cause I didn't know that hdcp keys could actually be revoked at that time.

I did however e-mailed and mailed Samsung customer service about it. It's one of the worst customer service I ever dealt with in my entire life. Feedback was slow, not to the point and they were stalling, up to the point that my warrantee was gone (it was over 6 months of cummunication through e-mail, because by telephone, it was hard to reach someone and if you had someone on the line, they didn't know anything about the issue!!).

I think fellow VH member Orsetto has warned us a couple times that this company has lousy support, does not respect standards that are of benefit to its customers (as compared to those that benefit itself or the industry) or care a rat's posterior about said customers, and may float sudden changes on them without notice. I have only dealt with customer service on one occasion -- in regard to one of their Blu-Ray players -- and their response in that case was quick and to the point. However, my call to them had to do with regular, forced firmware updates that I could not opt out of, one of which crippled the unit for awhile because of a bug in the new firmware code. It seems like the only way to step off of their firmware merry-go-round is to disconnect the player from the internet -- and then, of course, there goes your streaming Netflix and other services. This seems pretty much of a piece with your key revocation scenario. My immediate problem back then did get sorted out by the following FW update, but it did not leave a particularly good feeling in its wake. I had been actively considering the purchase of a Samsung laptop, and a Samsung refrigerator / freezer, but now I think it might be wise to avoid further dealings with this company.

I totally agree with you.

I've bought for thousands of euros on devices from this company. My recent - and also my last one from them - is the Samsung Galaxy S.
It came without a working recovery and download function. I bought this smartphone because of 1) the android os 2) because of its features and 3) of its design. Firmware upgrading was supported and a feature of their phone, so I decided to upgrade the firmware and it failed in the middle of the process, leaving me a brick phone, just purchased for around €500! Because the phone came out without working functions, they had to legally repair it. After a long wait, the phone came back with the same issue... There was a hacky fix which required soldering for it on xda-developers which worked for me, but, when that fix went wrong, my phone wasn't worth anything.

Now this TV is still in my house, doing nothing in the basement, except eating dust. I'll check it out soon if it still doesn't work, when I'm going to order a new PS3. Out of garuantee or not, they are legally obligde (Dutch law) to provide working features to customers they have promised. This can't be undone by anyone from a remote place. From what I understand, is if they do then you can sue the manufacture. The shareholders (Samsung) can sue the hdcp creators.

At the time, I've did a bit of tiny research and saw people keep saying it's just a "handshake issue", which I bought... Samsung didn't had a clue (which I don't believe in at all, because how can you not know it when you are 1) a shareholder of parts you buy in and 2) have experts in this kind of field).

Now, I did a lot more research and widened my scope by not only looking for my model and brand. This is a more generic problem than I first ever thought. It all happened around 2009, the same time InstaPort was hacked. I've read officials documents (including pdf from Silicon Image) that Samsung was a shareholder of Silicon's InstaPort chip and that they are implementing it in their tv's. The document was coming from 2008.
This could also be a scenario.

I only can know for sure if I let my tv exam by experts, which I will do when 1) My tv still does not support hdcp (and I'm pretty sick of all those people telling it's just a handshake issue back at the time, when they even didn't know how hdcp really worked...) and 2) Samsung does not repair my tv for free, including montage, administration costs and call-out costs. Then I will call in the help of lawyers and see what my opportunities are. Then, I will go publish my findings and experience to the media and popular internet forums. All those steps will be done if they don't honor my request and respecting of the law (which I need to make hard with facts).

Note: This might be the reason why SO MANY tv's have been repaired for FREE, not only by Samsung, all at the year 2009, from what I've read in forums! Initially, those same consumers had to pay for the mechanic, but when they said "HDCP" it was free... And those manufactures didn't have a clue?!
I can only think of one good reason: Preventing (class) lawsuits!
Without evidence you don't have a case and since people are probably willing to take their free repairs instead of going through all the hassle, they reached their ultimate goal: 1) Reduce costs and 2) Preserving their credibility (implicitly preserving income).

I'm glad I got a Sony now. Not ever have a Sony device failed me, even an old stereo / amplifier from when I was young, around 20 years ago... And the amount is almost equal of Samsung products, which I had more problems with (not only the two mentioned above). I learned my lesson 1) Do EXTENSIVE research and 2) buy QUALITY. And by quality, I mean the components inside the device, which will preserves it's durability and stability.

PS Is automatic firmware appliance legal in your country? I know it is illegal here, if you can't turn it off.

[Seraphic-]

Casio1987, are you ready to have your mind blown? I came across your thread and I just so happen to have such a device, an ancient and legendary relic of the past. It has the ability to strip Digital-In HDCP (then Digital-Out again) and supports anything up to 1080p60 24-RGB 4:4:4 for video with up to LPCM 7.1 or BitStream audio. Just today I got everything setup and installed and it all works! I'm so happy!!

Note: This is for gaming, not movies (just was showing it can be done with the right tools)

http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/930/69673648.png

It even does 3D:

http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/8853/67719956.png

[jagabo]

Everyone knows it can be done. The problem is the lack of availability of such devices (because of their legal status in many countries). And the price you have to pay because of that.

[Seeker47]

I'm glad I got a Sony now. Not ever have a Sony device failed me, even an old stereo / amplifier from when I was young, around 20 years ago... And the amount is almost equal of Samsung products, which I had more problems with (not only the two mentioned above). I learned my lesson 1) Do EXTENSIVE research and 2) buy QUALITY. And by quality, I mean the components inside the device, which will preserves it's durability and stability.

PS Is automatic firmware appliance legal in your country? I know it is illegal here, if you can't turn it off.

I'd like to be able to tell you that they are a big step up over Samsung (and maybe they still are in some cases, on the manufacturing level), but Sony now is not much like the Sony from back in the day. Don't forget that this is the company that pioneered rootkits distribution in mainstream media, and became a company more prone to litigate than to innovate. Now they have a media empire to protect (movies, music, games), that is going to be the crux of their interest, and consumers will inevitably get the short end of that stick.

My guess is that the pushed-FW thing would pass the test of minimal legality here. One does, after all, retain the option of disconnecting from the internet. No more FW rammed down your throat, but then device functionality goes out the window as well. When the player is connected, a new FW notice can pop up anytime the device gets turned on, before you have any chance to use it. While there is a 'Yes' / 'No' buttons screen with that, I found that in practice it is hard to press 'No' fast enough, and if I did choose 'No', the BR player had a very good chance of locking up. So, you might call that "the Illusion of choice" or "the Pretense of choice."

The EU may be in even deeper guano than we are at the moment, but I think one thing you do have in your favor is a much stronger body of consumer protection laws than we have here.

[jagabo]

Use the firewall in your router to block Sony or Samsung sites.

All big companies are the same now. No tech support. Designed in obsolescence. Buy or crush the competitors. Screw the customer.

[Casio1987]

Nice screnshots. I assume you have one of those strippers where the manufacturers received their dma notices and / or subpoenas. The second screenshot looks like a full hd 3d image to me, seeing the pab there between the two images. With what capture card did you capture those with if I may ask? I can't find any capture card that can take the resolution of a framepacked 3d image for less than $1000,-

You are right guys, I got that feeling too nowadays. It looks like that every big player in the market strives for maximum coorporation greed. I still hope though that Sony still uses great quality components in their devices. Too bad that there are organizations like RoHS who influences international laws regarding "green" and so called "safety", so that manufacturers can't use better compounds. Devices tend to fail a lot quicker nowadays than in the past.
My philosophy is the opposite of that from the RoHS directive. How can one go for a greener world when we live in a consumption society. If all those devices fail, people probably will dump it and even more waste will be created or when repaired, more gasses will be populated. Then, there must be a new device created to be sold. Such organizations are such a scam imho. A great way to generate jobs and catch more money. They should inform people rather. I, for one, love the nature and I want to preserve it. I hate it though when organizations such as RoHS, any DRM organization, etc. are invented to punish fair consumers by letting them pay way more than is actually needed to enjoy the things they have bought. I'm still amazed that it's still possible to buy power in some democracy systems.
I'm very glad I live in the EU, where the law can't be influenced with money (yet?). For example the new eulas and tos from EA and Sony. The EU was exempt. Too bad for them
Ohh well, maybe the money supply will dry out for them in a upcoming world crisis.

[Casio1987]

Hmm, I think Avermedia got punished for "the exploit" in one and more of their models. They aren't licensed anymore to bring out hdmi products. A implicit hint hereby is found by searching on google / youtube for "AVerMedia Game Capture HD Unboxing & DEMO by Alex Valle (level_up)" and then seek to 00:13:40.

I looked with google translate on the asian market and there seems a lot of products that CAN capture hdcp content, by also looking in the translated reviews.

So will this be the end of giving licenses away to untrusted manufacturers and developer kits for them? If so, depending on your law, I can already see people performing dyi projects (i.e., the hdcp workaround by soldering wires). Then why care about all the rules around hdcp, if they can capture an encrypted stream to pc, to then decrypt it with the master key. Only problem is the handshake, which I think there will be a solution for it too, be it via hard- or software. I can't blame those people, giving the fact that they can control you from a remote place and all the hassle this garbage has brought to us: All this time, energy and money... They dig their own grave, by their pure greed. Everyone comes out as a loser, it's pretty sad now I think more and more about this and how it has been created for the purpose of pure control and money (for their absurd high licenses).

What do you guys think of the bold sentence?

[jagabo]

So will this be the end of giving licenses away to untrusted manufacturers and developer kits for them?

The end? There never was a time when you could get an HDCP license without signing an agreement not to break the "rules". It's the same for AACS, CSS, etc.

[Casio1987]

So will this be the end of giving licenses away to untrusted manufacturers and developer kits for them?

The end? There never was a time when you could get an HDCP license without signing an agreement not to break the "rules". It's the same for AACS, CSS, etc.

The question is not well formulated. I think this is better: Will this be the end of hdcp license provision to any non-partner of Intel / DCP?

[Brad]

Hmm, I think Avermedia got punished for "the exploit" in one and more of their models. They aren't licensed anymore to bring out hdmi products. A implicit hint hereby is found by searching on google / youtube for "AVerMedia Game Capture HD Unboxing & DEMO by Alex Valle (level_up)" and then seek to 00:13:40.

That's not what I take away from his statements. For the first question, the first response seems to be about there not being much point (since one of the two consoles with HDMI encrypts everything), the second is just about keeping the price of the unit down, and his final point was "maintaining the licensing", whatever that means.

Anyway, they do have products listed as "NEW" on their site that carry HDMI inputs: C729 and C199X.

[Seraphic-]

With all this HDCP talk, I wanted to say that I have one of those CaptureX cards that I purchased for AC3 capture, but it doesn't allow for audio only capture which is what I wanted it for. So I might be looking to sell if anyone is interested. It does 480p/720p/1080i/1080p24 v.i HDMI and up to 1080i v.i breakout cable component. Also does SPDIF/HDMI capture of AC3/DTS 5.1 or normal stereo v.i RCA. Also says it supports Stereo 3D, but I can't seem to get it to work with Xbox 360 but might have to due with the fact my monitor is not 3D (also comes with a pair of 3D glasses). I also noticed that HDCP input is allowed to be viewed (no matter what), but you can't capture from PS3, Xbox360 HDCP capture seems to work though. However, using a screen capture program might allow you to record the digital input from PS3.

[rcubed]

There are no recording devices with HDMI input, only analog.

Not true about no HDMI capture devices. Just check out BlackMagic Intensity Pro. It does honor the current protection in place for HDMI. Moome plans on releasing a full HD mux by the end of this month. If your intent is to re-encode captured TV for example it would fit the bill.

rcubed

[Casio1987]

That's not what I take away from his statements. For the first question, the first response seems to be about there not being much point (since one of the two consoles with HDMI encrypts everything), the second is just about keeping the price of the unit down, and his final point was "maintaining the licensing", whatever that means.

Anyway, they do have products listed as "NEW" on their site that carry HDMI inputs: C729 and C199X.

Hmm, I quote what I literally hear from him:
14:10 "But the only thing, the restriction is stopping us from putting in hdmi ports on there was simply the hdcp license issue"
14:35 "and also is very [...?] for the licensee as well"

That's why I said it might implicitly hint to not gain the license for hdcp. As the guy in the video also said that the units are capable for hdmi, but that hdcp is an issue.

I don't buy the hdcp license costs. Ofcourse they are expensive, which is on a year bases for big manufacturers paying $20.000 each yeah and couple cents for a license for each device.

Second, it makes no sense for a profit organization to release many products with analog input for hd capturing, since the anlog sunset will be there very soon. Imho, it's a flawed business model, if that's what their intention is. They instead would lose money for production costs, because the profit won't be higher. We already see it with the new PS3 models (>= K-model) which prevents hd output via analog. This device becomes useless for hd capturing. Every business strategy is looking for a >= 4 year plan, not a 1 year plan or their intention is to record from very old devices and not looking for the future at all.

This being said, I doubt they are still able to get licenses for hdcp.

As for the C729 and C199X, they were here before this analog standalone capture device, but still carry the "new" tag in their list. There are referrers to the C729 a year ago on the internet, stating "new".

[Casio1987]

@Seraphic-
XBOX 360 doesn't output hdcp'ed video

@rcubed
I'm looking forwad for the hd mux. Are there any specs revealed yet? Hopefully it comes for an affordable price.

I'm sure people from Intel or any stakeholders in hdcp are watching this thread with suspicion. Let me say this to you: I've no intention for any copyright infriction or pirating anything. I only want to capture my work (Linux software engineering) and capture gameplay footage with authorization and without, for private viewing. Those respect the Dutch laws.

[Seraphic-]

@Seraphic-
XBOX 360 doesn't output hdcp'ed video

It does when you play DVDs, which is what I tested using that card. Xbox says on screen for a second that HDCP secure link not found, but pops up again link is secure and capture works.

I think Moome already had an that on the market for awhile though, it was called the Moome Mux-HD HDMI repeater. It did up to 1080p with 5.1 or 7.1 bitstream if I recall, but 2 channel LPCM, it also removed the hdcp. Unless its a new version those should be the specs.

Edit: Moome is making a new model called the MUX-FHD that passes audio through HDMI out.

So it is a new version, i'll keep an eye out for it and see what the new specs are.