Best MPEG-2 Capture Device?

[PuzZLeR]

I for one would appreciate your posting further examples.

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/329016-2001-2010-my-capture-cards-comparison-screen...=1#post2038006

But be sure to look for VHS caps too, since that's what you'll be capturing.

As I mentioned, I don't have the 750 any more, so my further posts (in a day or two) will be from the few analog TV captures I still have around from last year that compared the 600, 750 and Hauppauge 1950. I don't think I have any of the VHS tests still though...

[PuzZLeR]

Happy Valentine's Day my friends. I will report back soon.

[jagabo]

However, I did no deinterlacing, or change any settings within BeyondTV, so I don't know how it kept happening.

BeyondTV was probably automatically deinterlacing so you wouldn't see comb artifacts. It appears to just duplicate one field. In all your caps every pair of scanlines is identical. That's why edges are jagged.

[Brad]

Yeah PuzZLeR, try opening the MPEG files in VirtualDub-MPEG2 or frameserve with DGIndex into AviSynth. Avoid deinterlacing at all as far as I'm concerned for these comparisons.

jagabo, doesn't DVE or some other disc have a test clip that flips between black frames and white frames? Would that be a suitable test for the AGC problem?

[jagabo]

jagabo, doesn't DVE or some other disc have a test clip that flips between black frames and white frames? Would that be a suitable test for the AGC problem?

I don't think that would be a good test. A better test would be to have a small picture of medium tones with a large border that alternates between black and white. You would then see that the small picture gets brighter when the border is black, and darker when the border is white.

Since most (all?) of the AGC testing I was doing with the ATI 650 was with a VHS source I tried it again yesterday with a cable PVR box. I used a recorded show so I could capture the same sequence repeatedly. The AGC problems were occurring with the cable box too. The Hauppauge PVR-250 did not show any AGC problems with that source. I'll post some samples later.

[PuzZLeR]

Hi again, sure thing, will do it with D2V -> AVS -> VDubMPEG2 when I finish work soon.

Previous caps were straight image saves from VideoReDo - didn't think it would be a bad solution.

As for BeyondTV, it was just the software I was using a few weeks ago when capturing this TV sequence with all three: the Hauppauge 1950, the ATI 750 and the ATI 600. Settings were supposedly the same for all three captures, so don't know why there was an interlacing or deinterlacing problem with the 750 captures. I just figured the 750 sucked.

I can do more testing today if you want comparisons, with new material - let me know what you'd like tested. But I can only do it with the 600 vs the Hauppauge today since I got rid of the 750 since those old captures last month.

[PuzZLeR]

jagabo, doesn't DVE or some other disc have a test clip that flips between black frames and white frames? Would that be a suitable test for the AGC problem?

I don't think that would be a good test. A better test would be to have a small picture of medium tones with a large border that alternates between black and white. You would then see that the small picture gets brighter when the border is black, and darker when the border is white.

Want me to test this? I'd have to do something with my editor first and run it from a DVR/VCR or something. But let me know.

Since most (all?) of the AGC testing I was doing with the ATI 650 was with a VHS source I tried it again yesterday with a cable PVR box. I used a recorded show so I could capture the same sequence repeatedly. The AGC problems were occurring with the cable box too. The Hauppauge PVR-250 did not show any AGC problems with that source. I'll post some samples later.

The 600 and the Hauppauge show no such behavior on my behalf, at least not to me. I would think source is irrelevant, but if there's a source that can trigger it with a weak capture unit, please let me know so I can try it. (I would think like a harsh VHS source with no TBC or proc amp settings...)

[Brad]

Hi again, sure thing, will do it with D2V -> AVS -> VDubMPEG2 when I finish work soon.

Previous caps were straight image saves from VideoReDo - didn't think it would be a bad solution.

As for BeyondTV, it was just the software I was using a few weeks ago when capturing this TV sequence with all three: the Hauppauge 1950, the ATI 750 and the ATI 600. Settings were supposedly the same for all three captures, so don't know why there was an interlacing or deinterlacing problem with the 750 captures. I just figured the 750 sucked.

I would actually use VDubMod to save the AVS screenshots since it has integrated image saving. Can't recall if -MPEG2 added that.

VideoReDo definitely adds those artifacts to its display of interlaced MPEGs -- I've seen them on "perfect" firewire-extracted HDTV TS's, though I'm surprised its screencap function uses the output from that quick and dirty deinterlacer.

[Brad]

A better test would be to have a small picture of medium tones with a large border that alternates between black and white. You would then see that the small picture gets brighter when the border is black, and darker when the border is white.

I must have read this backwards cause I ended up doing basically the reverse. Maybe it will work anyway. I made a DVD image with the Ice Age stuff as the second title so if you want to give a try it would be easy to add more pics to that other thread too. I would test myself but I don't have a device with the problem.

Blank($000000)+Blank($FFFFFF)
BW = last+last+last

ColorBars(width=640,height=480,pixel_type="YV12").Trim(0,99).AudioDub(Blank($000000))+Blank($FFFFFF)
Bars = last+last+last

BW.Border(color_gray)+BW.Border($BE0000)+Bars.Border(color_gray)

ScriptClip("Subtitle(String(current_frame),x=50,y=440)")

function Blank(int color) {
    return BlankClip(color=color,width=640,height=480,length=100,pixel_type="YV12",fps=30000,fps_denominator=1001,audio_rate=48000,channels=2)
}

function Border(clip c, int color) {
    return c.AddBorders(color=color,40,0,40,0)
}

[jagabo]

I've been trying lots of test patterns (including yours, Vaporeon800) from DVD and can't reproduce the AGC problem there. It happens all the time from the cable box and VHS tapes. Will keep trying...

[jagabo]

OK, I have some clues:

I have an old analog video clarifier (Macrovision remover) that's been sitting unused in a drawer. Although the video I've been capturing is not macrovision protected (a VCR will happily record it) when I insert the clarifier between the cable box and the ATI 650 all the AGC problems go away. The clarifier also works with VHS tapes which were not Macrovision protected (recorded off air many years ago). So it looks like there is some kind of false Macrovision sensitivity in the 650.

[dorenhagen]

Can't get the drivers for the ATI TV Wonder 600 to load on my W7 system even in Vista compatible mode. Darn!

Any other suggestions other than the Wonder 600? Thanks.

[usually_quiet]

Can't get the drivers for the ATI TV Wonder 600 to load on my W7 system even in Vista compatible mode. Darn!

Any other suggestions other than the Wonder 600? Thanks.

From what source did you try to load the drivers? Your best bet is to let Windows 7 find them. The CD that comes with the pre-750 capture device doesn't contain drivers that will work with Windows 7.

If Windows 7 can't find drivers, a Google search turned up this page: http://forums.amd.com/game/messageview.cfm?catid=266&threadid=131326

The page included this link for drivers for the USB version of the TV Wonder 600 http://www.dmmdownload.com/dow...in7_32_64bit_VER_7.zip

This page has drivers for the PCI and PCI-E versions of the TV Wonder 600
http://support.amd.com/us/gpudownload/windows/Pages/tvtuner_win7.aspx?type=2.5&product...ostype=Windows

[jagabo]

I had no trouble installing the ATI 650 USB under Windows 7 Ultimate 64 bit. I don't think I even used the CD that came with the device. Windows just found a driver automatically. It works with Media Center and VirtualDub.

[danno78]

OK, I have some clues:

I have an old analog video clarifier (Macrovision remover) that's been sitting unused in a drawer. Although the video I've been capturing is not macrovision protected (a VCR will happily record it) when I insert the clarifier between the cable box and the ATI 650 all the AGC problems go away. The clarifier also works with VHS tapes which were not Macrovision protected (recorded off air many years ago). So it looks like there is some kind of false Macrovision sensitivity in the 650.

I am happy to hear this.
Macrovision scheme found on this ATI cards go to far. On 550 the card show a snow image and a distorted sound and with 750 show a black image without sound. Most other cards have a lesser protection scheme (the image go away and return back).
It is hardware implementation and seems to interact with other chips features.

[jagabo]

Macrovision scheme found on this ATI cards go to far. On 550 the card show a snow image

That's what the ATI 650 USB2 does when it sees real macrovision from a VHS tape or DVD player.

You're probably aware that there are two basic forms of Macrovision. One in which some of the sync pulses are screwed up, another where the color burst signal is screwed up. The screwed up sync pulses causes AGC (and indirectly saturation) problems with VCRs (much worse than what I'm seeing on the ATI 650). So I'm thinking the Macrovision detection circuit is over sensitive to minor variations in the sync pulses.

Visually, the Macrovision stripper I have blacks out about a half dozen scan lines at the top and bottom of the frame, and a pixel or two at the right of the frame. It hasn't grossly effected the quality of the image otherwise.

[dorenhagen]

Thanks for the assistance in installing the ATI TV Wonder drivers. Links to installation method worked perfect. Thank you usually_quiet.

Now I have to figure out how to get VirtualDub to do MPEG-@ captures. I only see AVI option.

[dorenhagen]

OK. I've got the drivers for the ATI TV Wonder installed. Which program is recommended to capture the MPEG-2 files? Thanks.

[jagabo]

I capture as YUY2 with HuffYUV then edit and convert to MPEG 2 later with HcEnc (HcGUI). Or h.264 with x264.

[usually_quiet]

OK. I've got the drivers for the ATI TV Wonder installed. Which program is recommended to capture the MPEG-2 files? Thanks.

I usually use GraphStudio and build a capture graph for my TV Wonder 650 to create direct to MPEG2 captures.

I have also tried Catalyst Media Center, the software from the installation disc, and it works with Windows 7 32 bit, but it is a little clumsy to use.

There should be a link to download a patch to update Catalyst Media Center to the latest version here http://support.amd.com/fr/kbarticles/Pages/41344-ATICatalystMediaCenUpdat.aspx but it is broken. I spent a half an hour tracking it down again, only to find the desired download link is broken. I like AMD's products but I sure wish they would maintain their website better and make downloads for their discontinued products easier to locate.

[jagabo]

I usually use GraphStudio and build a capture graph for my TV Wonder 650 to create direct to MPEG2 captures.

Just out of curiosity, what MPEG 2 encoder do you use? And with the system in your profile (Athlon II X2 250)?

[usually_quiet]

I usually use GraphStudio and build a capture graph for my TV Wonder 650 to create direct to MPEG2 captures.

Just out of curiosity, what MPEG 2 encoder do you use? And with the system in your profile (Athlon II X2 250)?

To perform software encoding I use the ATI MPEG Video Encoder, and the MONOGRAM AC3 Encoder for audio, and multiplex with the Moonlight M71 Muxer.

I have also used the ATI AVStream MPEG2 Multiplexer, which I think performs hardware encoding as well as multiplexes, but only allows PCM audio for the resulting .mpg file.

I'm not going to pretend that these will equal the results achievable with Virtualdub and HCEnc, but they are quicker. I don't have a very discerning eye when it comes to video defects anyway.

[jagabo]

I'm not going to pretend that these will equal the results achievable with Virtualdub and HCEnc, but they are quicker. I don't have a very discerning eye when it comes to video defects anyway.

I was just wondering what realtime encoder you were using. It's always nice to know what options are available.

[PuzZLeR]

Ok, had a deadline for work, so I'm back again. Interesting thread still.

Thanks for the assistance in installing the ATI TV Wonder drivers. Links to installation method worked perfect. Thank you usually_quiet.

Now I have to figure out how to get VirtualDub to do MPEG-@ captures. I only see AVI option.

...

OK. I've got the drivers for the ATI TV Wonder installed. Which program is recommended to capture the MPEG-2 files? Thanks.

VirtualDub only does AVI pretty much. It doesn't do MPEG-2, unless it's some exotic form like YMPEG in an AVI. (Too awkward for me.)

Some options, like lossless->MPEG-2 and building a graph were explained. But if you want a direct to MPEG-2 solution, then the software that comes with the 600, CMC, should be just fine (so you won't need the WDM drivers). But I agree with Usually_Quiet in that it is a bit clumsy to use.

But CMC is not bad at all. As advice, make sure you locate the "Profile.txt" file in the installation directory if you want to have your own settings for the MPEG-2 captures (bitrate, rez, etc). Don't use the "Custom" feature within CMC - for some reason that I don't care to figure out, it hurts quality (maybe it messes with GOPs or whatever. Like I said I don't care because I just configure the .txt file.)

I use CMC for VHS->MPEG-2, but for TV->MPEG-2 I've settled with SageTV (not free). It too is easily configured with a file called SageTV.properties in the installation directory. Beyond TV uses this web configuration crap which is annoying.

Keep in mind, my info works with an XP-box I use for capturing. The 600 came before the W7 era, and is now discontinued AFAIK (for crappier models). So any updates past Vista I can't say for sure whether they'll work or not, but I did hear reports that the 600's Vista drivers work fine for W7.

Capture cards have sucked since mid-Vista AFAIC.

[PuzZLeR]

Ok, got around to doing more tests to compare the Hauppauge (only the 1950, which I have and has a hardware MPEG-2 encoder) the ATI 750 and the ATI 600. I don't have the 750 any more, so these are old tests from late last year when I had all three in my possession.

Unfortunately I don't have a 550 or a 650 to compare. But I can prove that the 750 at least is an entirely different product. I know that the 600 uses a similar, and even newer, Theater chip, like the older ATI AIW 7XXX and 9XXX models (and should be on par or even better). This is unlike other ATI USB sticks I believe, especially the 750, which I'd avoid.

The caps were taken from a TV station that plays the same ads over and over again for a ~10min cycle advertising movies and TV shows. I did captures with each device for each cycle and compared within the same hour.

All captures at the time were done with Beyond TV to MPEG-2. Bitrate was similarly high for each device. I used D2V -> AVS -> VirtualDubMod -> BMP to do the pic captures. I converted to PNG afterwards (hopefully it proves a better idea than the last batch, which were captured from VideoReDo).

[PuzZLeR]

This is the same pic as before, only done with VDMod (the Hawai 5-0 ad). Again, logos are manually scrubbed, and no copyright infringement is intended - only demonstration.

Hauppauge 1950:


ATI 750:


ATI 600:


Notice the higher detail on the 600 again? As well, Hauppauge captures always seem to be softer and less detailed (although less blocky, but that comes with the territory).

Keep in mind, all captures were hard-teleclined, so only chose a progressive frame.

[PuzZLeR]

Another demonstration, particularly for animation fans. This is from an ad for Skrek Forever After. Again, only demonstration, no copyright infringement.

Hauppauge 1950:


ATI 750:


ATI 600:

[PuzZLeR]

Again, another. This one from an ad for Dinner for Schmucks. I chose a frame that had some motion and alot of detail. Again the 600 wins handily IMO.

Will always say this -> no copyright infringement is intended. Only demonstration. Thank you.

Hauppauge 1950:


ATI 750:


ATI 600:

[PuzZLeR]

Hi Vaporeon800, thanks for the uploaded clip.

I burned it to DvD and even recorded it on VHS.

I used the Hauppauge 1950 and ATI 600 to capture.

I used it with a Phillips DvD player with composite yellow.
I used it with a Pioneer 520 DVR with a compoite yellow and S-video connector.
I used the VHS tape with two VCR's, a JVC SR-V101US and a Panasonic AG-1980.

I have no AGC issues to report. All captures went fine.

[dorenhagen]

I've got a trial copy of SageTV and can't figure out how to capture with it!! it does recognize my ATI TV Wonder USB. Couldn't get the software that came with the TV Wonder to load on my W7

Thanks again for all the help.