Converting AVCHD Lite for editing in Vegas10 and then to a good format.

[Domiel]

Please bear with me, as im new on the video editing scene.
Ive been trying to edit my Panasonic Lumix DmTZ7 720P AVCHD lite mts files in sony vegas 10. First thing I want to do is make them into a format where i can smoothly edit the files but so far I've had mixed results.

My main idea was to get all the files i wanted to edit into vegas and then render them into a smoother format. After working on them I was gonna convert them back into a more compressed format.

Here is what mediainfo say about the raw mts files:

Video
ID                               : 4113 (0x1011)
Menu ID                          : 1 (0x1)
Format                           : AVC
Format/Info                      : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile                   : High@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC           : No
Format settings, ReFrames        : 1 frame
Frame mode                       : Frame doubling
Codec ID                         : 27
Duration                         : 1mn 23s
Bit rate mode                    : Variable
Bit rate                         : 14.3 Mbps
Maximum bit rate                 : 16.6 Mbps
Width                            : 1 280 pixels
Height                           : 720 pixels
Display aspect ratio             : 16:9
Frame rate                       : 25.000 fps
Standard                         : NTSC
Color space                      : YUV
Chroma subsampling               : 4:2:0
Bit depth                        : 8 bits
Scan type                        : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)               : 0.621
Stream size                      : 143 MiB (95%)

Audio
ID                               : 4352 (0x1100)
Menu ID                          : 1 (0x1)
Format                           : AC-3
Format/Info                      : Audio Coding 3
Mode extension                   : CM (complete main)
Codec ID                         : 129
Duration                         : 1mn 23s
Bit rate mode                    : Constant
Bit rate                         : 192 Kbps
Channel(s)                       : 2 channels
Channel positions                : Front: L R
Sampling rate                    : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth                        : 16 bits
Stream size                      : 1.92 MiB (1%) 

I am aware of the double frame issue of the AVCHD lite format but vegas seems to be fine with it..
Using the match media settings, i create a New Project in vegas 10, and it seems it recognizes the mts files fine as you can be seen in the below picture(first row).

I then go on to render with the mts into an avi file with the settings shown above(top left). The rendered avi file is a tiny bit longer than the original, in most cases just 1 second.....and as a result its a little bit slower than realtime and the sound seems to be popping in and out resulting in some scratching(i guess because its been "stretched" to fit the longer clip?).

Did some reading on the forum and tried to change the settings to the ones in the lower row for New Project+Rendering (Basically same settings except 29,970fps NTSC instead of 50DP), and heres the fun part. The resulting file is still a bit longer than the original but the sound and picture seems to be at normal speed to my eyes.

So I'm at a bit of a loss how to proceed....
1. Well maybe im just doing the first part wrong? should i convert the mts files some other way entirely?

2. Would it be sensible to format all my mts files into the 29,970 avi format even though the native files are 25 fps(double framed) and then process them into yet another format afterwards e.g. wouldn't that give some serious quality loss?

3. what video format should i choose for my final video, as i want to loose as little quality as possible, but still dont want a HUGE file (DVD/Blue-ray size is fine however)?

[poisondeathray]

Mediainfo indicates this is a camera from Europe , so you should set the project settings to 1280x720 , 25fps , disable resample on the clips (or else you'll get ghosting - double images)

Export settings should be 25fps as well

Final export format depends on what you intend to play it on. IF just a format for the computer playback , then try h.264/aac using the Mainconcept AVC Encoder

For intermediate editing format, you can try high bitrate I-frame MPEG2. Here is a free one that works well with all NLE's
http://www.matrox.com/video/en/support/windows/vfw_software_codecs/downloads/softwares/version1.0/

Or a format like Cineform (not free)

[Domiel]

Cheers for the fast reply!
Tried to do the first thing you said and it works! Although the resulting file is still 1 second longer for some reason. I guess it would be a bad idea to use the avi file with the settings you prescribed as an intermediate format though since you recommend the other one?

[poisondeathray]

The one you're using for the intermediate is uncompressed YUV - it's lossless and should work fine

But on slower or fragged HDD, you might find scrubbing slower because of high data rates . If it works for you performance wise, then go ahead (your 1sec longer might actually be from playback issues - try another format and see if it occurs) . Ideally you should use separate HDD's for program, input clips , output clips and, scrub disc

You might consider upgrading your system too, AVCHD Lite should edit quite smoothly on a quad core (it's only 1280x720, and data rates are low)

[Domiel]

Looked through the possibilities for rendering intermediates in vegas and it also has the format you suggested (i think at least):

Runs smooth in vegas + the file sizes are much smaller than avi and i reckon its lossless too?
Still takes 1 sec longer to play the file compared to original, but as you said its probably just playback issues.

Only have 2 HDD's on my comp 1 being 1TB and the other 250GB so gonna be hard to split up the workload

Anyway think im settled on the I-frame MPEG2 format as intermediate (if that is in fact what i found)

[budwzr]

Sony provides the .MXF format for an intermediate, it's Mpeg2 "Sony Style".

[poisondeathray]

@Domiel - No, that's HDV, that' s a long GOP (not I-frame only) 25Mb/s format (you actually have it set for 18Mb/s) you have in your screenshot. It's not lossless. There's going to be more quality loss compared to the other >100Mb/s formats , but it might be "good enough" for some purposes .

[Domiel]

Ahh ok Ill probably just stick with the other format then. CHecking out the MXF format now..
*Edit heres the settings used for making the MFX file. Think I've cranked it all the way up there but still it seems its only 31Mb/s


Say i wanna play the movie on a high res projector, or on a hd tv would there be a big visual difference from the 100mb/s lossless conversion, i mean exactly how much actual visual quality will be lost? Sorry for all the questions, just trying to get a feel for this....

[budwzr]

You're already past the point where it matters. The 31 you're looking at is on the quality scale. The average bitrate will be 35M.

There's a 422 format in there too, if you want to get ridiculous.

[poisondeathray]

Say i wanna play the movie on a high res projector, or on a hd tv would there be a big visual difference from the 100mb/s lossless conversion, i mean exactly how much actual visual quality will be lost?

This is impossible to answer in general terms. It will depend on the content and how compressible the source is. If there is lots of noise, lots of detail, lots of movement, 35Mb/s MPEG2 might not be enough. For most cases it should be ok - of these AVCHD Lite cameras don't resolve a lot of detail and the image isn't super crisp - but do some tests for yourself.

This setting you're using is long GOP MPEG2 (I-frame MPEG2 is easier to decode = snappier to edit, because you don't have to decode interframe, every frame is a keyframe) . But I-frame only (intra) requires a higher bitrate for the same quality (it's not as efficiently compressed)

[budwzr]

OK, then.


DJ Guyaharta
=======================================
Latest Remix: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWxArJl_dr4

[Domiel]

Ok I've decided to use proxy-files instead of an intermediate. Have 33GB files distributed over 515 720p PAL MTS-clips that I need to convert to Proxy files for snappy editing. Have around 400GB Vacant space for them(possibly more).
I was Originally gonna use sony MFX as proxy but played around with some avi-clips and they feel a bit less laggy to work with (preview works a bit faster).
Computer specs are as follows:
Win 7 Ultimate 64bit
Intel Pentium 4 3GHz
Nvidia Geforce 9600GT
2GB Ram
(Yep i know i need a new rig)

Tried installing the MATROX codec as suggested in this thread but it gives me an error and wont install,
"This application has requested the Runtime to terminate it in an unusual way...."
Possibly because theres a conflict with another codec (Mainconcept perhaps?)
These are my installed codecs:


Can i use any of those, or is there another faster one (preferably free) i should DL?