Is there a stand-alone multimedia player which will do subtitles?

[goanna300]

I have two clients who have used my multi-language DVDs for some years now. The DVD players get a lot of wear; (at least one play & subtitle switch every 30 minutes, 8-5pm, 7 days/week).
I now find I need to change formats. DVD-players are not as robust as they used to be. New staff need training often.
I am convinced the way to go is via a stand-alone, hard-drive based, media-player device box. However, we cannot burn-in subtitles because we often add a language or change a translation.
So I'm looking for a stand-alone,*virtual-DVD* box system, with selectable subtitles exactly as in a DVD player. I use European as well as Asian character subtitles. The Hard drive system must be extremely reliable and simple. A computer is *not* an option since it has to be simple. (I even program the remote controls and cover over all unused buttons!).
Any ideas appreciated. I've looked everywhere and am confused by the abundance of kit available.
Steve

[redwudz]

I would look into VLC. It's constantly evolving. One nice feature is it uses it's own internal codecs, so it isn't dependent on installed codecs. And it is available on quite a few different operating systems. There is also a portable version that doesn't need installation. It does very well with subs. It also plays DVD on the disc or from the HDD.

If you need an embedded player, VLC will work or MPC is another option.

[goanna300]

Sorry, VLC is software, not hardware. What do you mean by embedded player? Can you suggest a box with something like a VLC ROM?

[netmask56]

Popcorn C200 http://www.streamaster.com.au/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=64 or Dune http://dune-hd.com/

Both available in Australia

[goanna300]

Popcorn C200 http://www.streamaster.com.au/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=64 or Dune http://dune-hd.com/

Both available in Australia

I've looked at those products' websites and so far failed to find reference to the simple features I need.
Both seem to do lots of things we don't need. But I still cannot see how a simple DVD fileset with menus and subtitles would play from their hard drives.

The real problem with devices like these - even if they'll really play a full DVD from a hard drive with its subtitles - is overkill. The staff have to be trained to start the movie and choose the subtitle language. That's all. It must be foolproof, dumbed-down and able to run all day.

[goanna300]

Clients' requirements:

Able to play a single, 10-minute DVD all day without overheating
Able to display DVD menus
Able to display any one of 12 language subtitles for the same movie
No navigation should be necessary. Staff should open the same file every showing without browsing.
Low-maintenance.
Bug-free
Able to be operated by novices
An instruction sheet no more than 3 lines long.
(Sounds like a DVD-player!)

[jagabo]

There are many standalone media players now that support soft subs. WDTV, Asus O!Play, Popcorn Hour, Boxee Box (available soon), Tvix, etc.

I have a Western Digital's WDTV Live. It supports soft subs but you may not be happy with the subtitle rendering. It doesn't have an internal drive but it can use an external USB drive (hard drive or flash drive) or network shares. The new WDTV Live Hub includes an internal 1 GB hard drive.

[netmask56]

I have a Popcorn C200 and have converted all my DVD collection to ISO format mainly for my Beyonwiz that prefers this format. However the C200 plays the selected DVD with full menu's and subs and languages, it also plays DVD's off HDD in conventional VIDEO_TS format. Ditto for the DUNE

from the C200 specs

Other Formats:
ISO, IFO navigation
AVCHD navigation
Subtitle Formats:
SRT, MicroDVD SUB, SSA, SUB/IDX

I agree it does a whole lot more than you need - maybe looking for a simple media player that reliably plays ISO and IFO (VIDEO_TS folder with VOBS, BUP's and IFO's) formats would cover all bases? However part of your requirements are IMO unreasonable in anything other than a bespoke device made to your specifications

No navigation should be necessary. Staff should open the same file every showing without browsing. not possible with any commercial units without major modification

Low-maintenance.

Bug-free never seen a device that conforms to this requirement other than military grade

Able to be operated by novices - that's dependent on the effectiveness of the training you provide

An instruction sheet no more than 3 lines long. - this seems like an artificial restriction ? so does 4 lines destroy the concept?

(Sounds like a DVD-player!) not one I've ever seen!

Sorry to seem negative but having been in this business for a very long time and dealing with large staff numbers I think your expectations and requirements are beyond normal commercial devices. I doubt if any manufacturer would agree to a contract that included "bug free" the possibility of litigation is almost cosmic!

[goanna300]

An instruction sheet no more than 3 lines long. - this seems like an artificial restriction ? so does 4 lines destroy the concept?

(Sounds like a DVD-player!) [I]not one I've ever seen!

That's exactly what we have now with DVD players.
A single remote with only 2 buttons: Play and choose subtitle language.

Instructions:
1. Press play
2. Choose subtitle
3. Turn AV switch to ON [also senses AV circuit by induction and switches house lights & projectors on].

My "no subtitles" service call last week turned out to be flat batteries in the remote control. In the meantime, staff had panicked, switched to the backup machine (remote batteries also flat) and then phoned me 450 km away.

Total downtime since June 2004: 3 hours, 1 incident
Current problem with DVD system: slow response times, noisy drives cause replacement machines yearly.

Steve

[netmask56]

Sounds more like a staff training issue and maybe poor staff selection process in the first place. There are tests available to see how well prospective staff are at problem solving (which can be more important than actual qualifications) even at the lower levels of the staff ladder.
You could institute a "by rote" rule that batteries are changed on the first of the month regardless of necessity - not a big financial burden but it will ensue these problems don't arise. In other words try to anticipate all possible problems in advance and create pre-emptive systems to minimise the effects. I know with full employment conditions in Australia at the moment it is hard to get staff in certain areas but my old employer has had good results by employing professional testing employment techniques (staff of over 200 in media).
Maybe investigate military class DVD player units.

[jagabo]

WDTV is based on Linux and is open source. You might be able to modify the system so that it works the way you like.

[goanna300]

WDTV is based on Linux and is open source. You might be able to modify the system so that it works the way you like.

*Now* we're talking!

This may be my first machine to look into. I had been considering programming an Arduino microcontroller board to talk to a machine and do the switching. A Linux machine could be simpler.

On a more fundamental note, I need to address the wide variation in device support for subtitles.

For example, machines sold in Australia often display Asian language character sets, but not always all European accents.
At present, the Japanese subtitles display well on client's backup DVD machine [was original purchased & tested, now relegated to backup]. With the replacement machine, each subtitled Japanese character appears sideways!

Other issues are:

a. Some machines' maximum number of subtitle languages available per video - (No problem when over-limit, just author-in another instance of the original video);

b. Strange conventions on some media players: eg one player requires a subtitle to have same name as the video VOB! This limits the number of languages to just *one*! [Sounds a bit like the lyric files kept in same directory as their namesake mp3 songs]

All of this stuff is why I posted this query to the subtitles forum. Info on subtitle support for machines is very light-on when you consult published specifications. The wrong machine can be an expensive mistake!

Steve

[handyguy]

I use a Seagate Theater, not the plus version, but that would work too. It does subs just fine, also has an A/B option so you can select something to replay again & again. Has a HD dock & also a USB plug if you want to put in something USB.

[netmask56]

Most media players that use Linux do so as embedded firmware and is not installed on the hard disk so modding is a matter of cracking the firmware. Both the Dune and Popcorn Hour don't actually require a hard disk to be installed to operate BTW. On the Popcorn you can hot swap hard disks or a Bluray player in the front slot as well as having a small 2.5" drive internally. You definately can play DVD's ripped to a hard disk either in the unit or over a network with full navigation, menu's, languages and subs just like a standalone DVD player. I can play a DVD placed in my computer CDROM remotely over the network connected to the C200. It's a very flexible unit.

Maybe a POS (point of sale) embedded DVD player that does nothing but play the DVD over and over demonstrating a product could be used. I have seen one at the last SMPTE at Darling Harbour and the Royal Easter Show, they are around. How to find them????

Good luck

[goanna300]

See "Hack the WDTV into a networked snazzy media player and Linux box !" at Tech enclave.
DVD players already work perfectly with my museum/cinema projects. However, the word is that little research is going into better DVD drives and that the industry is headed the other way.

[goanna300]

WDTV is based on Linux and is open source. You might be able to modify the system so that it works the way you like.

Thanks, Jagabo.
I get the impression there might be a need for a table showing latest hardware and subtitle compatibility.
eg text-rendering quality, character-set support, maximum subtitle streams per video .... etc

[SatStorm]

The best media player is the latest popcorn hour (C200) but in the case of the subtitles all media players have issues one or another way. Especially on multisubs.
WDTV's are always one step behind. But they are cheaper solutions and they do about the same. There are also those new Asus mediaplayers, that do have slightly better picture quality.

IMO, your best shot might be Geexbox. It is easy, fast and plays much more things than any media player and better! In short, Geexbox is a stable tiny linux distro that converts your old (or new) PC to a media player. Very easy to use to the point that you forget that you have to deal with a PC. And it doesn't even need a HDD!
Look at it!