Horizontal Lines Appear In DVD

[Mark-Leon]

Several times now I have created a DVD of a file that appeared perfectly fine to begin with and got horizontal lines appearing during scenes with movement. It happened again with a file I captured from a VHS tape. The captured file was 9.29GB so, I allowed Toast to compress it for DVD and saved it as a .toast image file. When I previewed it, there were those lines again. It has happened before when using iDVD. At first, I thought it was due to the format being either NTSC or PAL but now I'm wondering if it is a symptom of compression.

The original file was captured in H.246 codec but the makers of the Video To DVD device said mp4 is the most compressed codec so, I tried it. The size was halved but, still too big for a DVD and there was some loss of quality as well.

I guess I have two questions:

1. Are the horizontal lines during movement a symptom of compression or is it a format issue (or something else entirely)?
2. How can I compress a 9.29GB video file to fit onto a DVD without too much loss of quality or weird lines across the screen?

[Herve]

1. Are the horizontal lines during movement a symptom of compression or is it a format issue (or something else entirely)?

a "format issue" (aka interlaced video)
these lines are only visible on computer? (if the encoding is OK, you will not see them once on tv )

2. How can I compress a 72GB video file to fit onto a DVD without too much loss of quality or weird lines across the screen?

What is the source format? (eg: 72GB in DV format, means 5hours and a half, so too much for a single DVD-R, you will need a DVD-DL)

bye

[Mark-Leon]

I have edited my original post. I don't know where I got 72GB from.

I will try your suggestion and burn the image file to disc and get back to you with the result.

Thanks for your help.

[Herve]

I have edited my original post.

ok, so now you have an mp4 (9,3GB)
why do you want to fit it in a DVD-R?
mp4 is not compliant with DVD-VIDEO (you need mpeg2 video format)

About interlacing, I don't know what your soft did, but interlaced mpeg4 is not well handle by QuickTime (and if QuickTime handles it well, I does not know if the encoder did not make a mistake…)

So no idea here:
You want to make a DVD-VIDEO and burn it on DVD-R/DVD-DL?
You just want to archive some file?
…

bye

[Mark-Leon]

Well, my intention was to transfer some stuff that is only available on VHS to DVD for my collection. I no longer have a VCR. One of them is the opening ceremony for the 2000 Sydney Olympics. I don't know why but they have never released it on DVD. It is 300 minutes long, split onto two tapes. I haven't had a chance to try your suggestion of just burning it to disc but I will over the weekend.

Mark.

[jagabo]

Capture at 720x576. Do not crop or resize the frame (each frame of interlaced video contains two half pictures, called fields, intended to be viewed separately and sequentially). Convert to interlaced MPEG 2 with a 720x576 frame with DVD compatible settings. Keep track of "field order" (if your cap is top field first make a top field first interlaced MPEG 2 file, if your capture is bottom field first make a bottom field first interlaced MPEG 2 file -- if you use the wrong field order setting you will get very fast-jerky video on playback). Master and burn to DVD.

[Mark-Leon]

I have edited my original post.

ok, so now you have an mp4 (9,3GB)
why do you want to fit it in a DVD-R?
mp4 is not compliant with DVD-VIDEO (you need mpeg2 video format)

About interlacing, I don't know what your soft did, but interlaced mpeg4 is not well handle by QuickTime (and if QuickTime handles it well, I does not know if the encoder did not make a mistake…)

So no idea here:
You want to make a DVD-VIDEO and burn it on DVD-R/DVD-DL?
You just want to archive some file?
…

bye

OK, I put the H.264 file into Toast and created my menu then saved it as an image file. I also put an mp4 file into iDVD and created my menu and saved it as a VIDEO_TS file then burned it to a DVD-R. The horizontal lines still appear on moving figures. I don't know what's going on.

Firstly, maybe you could tell me which video transfer codec I should be using. The choices for the device are:
Animation
Apple Intermediate Codec
Apple Pixlet Video
DV - PAL
DV/DVCPRO - NTSC
DVCPRO - PAL
DVCPRO50 - NTSC
DVCPRO50 - PAL
H.264
JPEG 2000
MPEG-4 Video
None
Photo - JPEG
PNG
YUV422 codec

The help desk said MPEG-4 Video is the most compressed. The first try was in YUV422 which came out at 9.29GB but good quality.

I guess this is not so much the issue because the files come out OK. It's when I create a DVD in either Toast or iDVD that I get the problem. It seems to happen with just about any codec/format. I've tried .avi, .mov, divx, xvid, mpeg. There is something in the process of re-encoding for DVD that is causing this. I wish I could take a screenshot. Moving figures get broken up into horizontal lines. Just when things move.

Oh and I tried playing the disc on my computer and then on a TV using the recently bought BD player. Same deal.

I sure hope you can help with this.

Mark.

[Herve]

OK, I put the H.264 file […] The horizontal lines still appear on moving figures. I don't know what's going on.

it means that your h264 is bad (or the encoder did not work well)
explanation: the contents of your h264 is certainly interlaced (no concern about this), but the file is badly taggued as non-interlaced (=progressive)
the encoder did not read any "information inside" about interlacing. So it has no reason to do a special treatment (aka handles interlacing in your resulting DVD-VIDEO).
Result => you see lines on tv

Now some questions more:
you had a VHS…
you digitalized it with?
How did you obtained the h264 conversion? (which soft did it? how about its settings?)

Firstly, maybe you could tell me which video transfer codec I should be using.

(same question, see above) …transfer from… ?

The help desk said MPEG-4 Video is the most compressed. The first try was in YUV422 which came out at 9.29GB but good quality.

yuv is a not "compressed format". You obtain quality but restulting file is huge, and it's not compliant to DVD-VIDEO

I guess this is not so much the issue because the files come out OK. It's when I create a DVD in either Toast or iDVD that I get the problem. It seems to happen with just about any codec/format. I've tried .avi, .mov, divx, xvid, mpeg. There is something in the process of re-encoding for DVD that is causing this. I wish I could take a screenshot. Moving figures get broken up into horizontal lines. Just when things move.

you input file is interlaced, you have 2 solutions:
- keep interlaced (I don't know how actually, your tries produces bad results, seems the concern is on the top of your processes)
- suppress interlaceing (=remove half of the pictures in your input file) so , every encoder should handle correctly a so basic video file. MPegStreamClip can do the deinterlaceing: export to (what do you want, a not too much compress format will be better) and check "deinterace", then give the result to the DVD encoder. PS: it's the badest choice (about quality), but the easier and safer

bye

[jagabo]

Try capturing with "DV - PAL". That's more likely to be handled correctly by the MPEG2/DVD encoder.

[Mark-Leon]

I was thinking that DV - PAL would be the most straight forward.

The device is called Video To DVD Maker and is made by Kaiser Baas. It is simply an analogue RCA to USB cable. The software that came with it is called Empia Capture. In the drop down menus, it gives you a number of encoding options for both video and audio. As I said, the resulting files play well. This problem only arises when I convert to DVD.

I will try the DV - PAL option and then a deinterlaced option (the software gives you the choice of interlaced or progressive).

[jagabo]

No need to deinterlace. If the conversion to DVD goes correctly the DVD player or TV will display the interlaced video properly.

What you need to understand is that each frame of interlaced video contains two half pictures called fields. One field is in all the even numbered scanlines, the other in all the odd numbered scanlines. These are intended to be viewed one field at a time, in sequence. If the two fields are displayed at the same time (as a progressive frame) you will see comb artifacts anywhere there is motion. If the interlace frame is mishandled, resized vertically for example, the two fields will no longer be separable. The result will not display correctly.

A crop from an interlaced frame (note the comb artifacts on the pendulum):



Each field should be displayed separately (note the different location of the pendulum):

[Mark-Leon]

Oh thank you for the screenshot. This clears a few things up for me. This is NOT what's happening. The horizontal lines are much thicker. I wish there was a way to take a screenshot but Apple DVD player won't let you do that.

[jagabo]

Oh thank you for the screenshot. This clears a few things up for me. This is NOT what's happening. The horizontal lines are much thicker.

Yes, because the video was resized without taking into account that it was interlaced. The two fields are no longer separate. Here's the interlaced image resized improperly:



The thickness of the lines will depend on exactly what resizing algorithm was used and how much the frame was resized.

[Mark-Leon]

Yes, yes, yes. This is what's happening.

[jagabo]

I suspect the software is misidentifying the aspect ratio of the source and resizing vertically to adjust to the aspect ratio of the DVD. Or you're trying to make the wrong aspect ratio for the DVD.

[Mark-Leon]

Things are starting to fall into place thanks to your insights. When I use iDVD, I tend to just leave the aspect ratio on widescreen because all the screens I would play it on are widescreen. Could this be the cause? That wouldn't explain why Toast is doing it too though because I don't think that gives you that option.

[jagabo]

Things are starting to fall into place thanks to your insights. When I use iDVD, I tend to just leave the aspect ratio on widescreen because all the screens I would play it on are widescreen. Could this be the cause?

In short, Yes. In most applications can override what the app thinks the source aspect ratio and interlace/progressive status. Capturing as DV may solve these problems since most applications handle DV very well.

[Mark-Leon]

Now I'm really confused. I just transferred it again in DV - PAL and the DV file is now doing it too. Before, it was only the re-encoded DVD file. This is just the straight DV file

[jagabo]

Now I'm really confused. I just transferred it again in DV - PAL and the DV file is now doing it too. Before, it was only the re-encoded DVD file. This is just the straight DV file

Upload a small sample.

[Mark-Leon]

I have cut out a small section but I don't know how to upload it. It was saved by QT as a .mov.

[Mark-Leon]

Here it is. I hope this works. /Users/markleonthorne/Desktop/Wayne's Visit.mov

[Mark-Leon]

I have just tried transferring as DV - PAL with progressive scan mode and got the same problem. How is that possible if the issue is with the interlacing?

[Herve]

(the software gives you the choice of interlaced or progressive).

Should be the problem : the soft does not allow you to capture correctly (it only purposes to you to deinterlaced its capture, aka it dos not handle interlacing). Interlacing is very accurate, if the software does bad job (resizes as said by jagabo, or writes bad headers), the interlacing "is lost" and no one could process it correctly after this bug.

and again:

Upload a small sample.

A real one and not this "link", it only indicates where the file is on your own computer

bye

[jagabo]

I have just tried transferring as DV - PAL with progressive scan mode and got the same problem. How is that possible if the issue is with the interlacing?

I think that is just flagging the file progressive. That doesn't make the video progressive. Flagging an interlaced file as progressive will cause the problem you're seeing (the software that's editing the file won't know it's interlaced).

Your upload didn't work. It's just a link to the file on your Desktop, not the actual file.

[Mark-Leon]

Can you tell me how to upload this little clip I made? I get a box with http//. What do I put in after that? Sorry to seem such a dunce.

[jagabo]

Don't use the video upload icon. Use the "Upload files/Manage Attachments" link (below where you enter the reply text):



It's also available after pressing the "Go Advanced" button.

[Mark-Leon]

OK. Done. Now where do you get it?

[jagabo]

It should show up as an attachment in your post. Ie, type in the text for your post, upload the file, press Post Quick Reply.

[Mark-Leon]

OK. Let me try that again.

[jagabo]

The fields in that video are already corrupt. If that's directly from the capture device you need to adjust your capture settings or there's something wrong with the device.