VHS Capture in 2010 tips

[MadMax_911]

Hi, I captured and cleaned my own VHS collection almost 10 years ago and the resulting DVDs containing 352x576i looks quite good considering it was VHS source.

Now I got the task of helping a family member do the same. I have in my pc an AVerMedia m115 that I only used for capturing DVB that I hope is useable I'm also getting a High End VHS player from 1999 that I hope gives a better signal to capture.
I've looked around this site and others and not much have changed on the advise given and alot of guides seem to be made during the time I made my own captures.

I'm trying to figure out in what format to deliver. The family has bluray-players.
I'm thinking that If they like the result I might get another mountain of tapes to convert. High quality MPEG2 means many DVDs MPEG4 seems to be able to do better quality with lower bitrate. Is this the same for standard def. VHS?

I'm also looking another 10 years forward and Bluray doesn't seem to support half D1 resolution so I'm going to aim for 720x576i I think.

My main questions are theese:
Anyone that have experience good or bad with the AVerMedia m115?
If you just converted a stack of VHS-tapes, what filters/settings did you use? Avisynth scripts or virtualdub?
Regarding output is DVD the only way or are either AVCHD or bluray an option?
What codec/settings/bitrate would you recomend for standalone player?
What codec/settings/bitrate would you recomend for playing on computer?

Is there anything else that have happened the last ten years when it comes to VHS capturing.

[yoda313]

I can't speak to the specifics you want but I can offer some advice on the bluray question.

Considering this is going to be sourced from vhs there is no reason to do bluray.

Bluray will not make vhs look better.

Also since for the foreseeable future bluray players will be backwards compatible with dvd there isn't really a need to "futureproof" your dubs.

I'd say you're still better off dubbing to dvd. You might try a test cap and see if full d1 is just as good as half d1. And if you're going to invest in a special vcr for this you might as well try to aim a little higher and look into a qualiy svhs player and a tbc to ensure the best transfer you can get.

Edit - if you are looking for computer playback options I would guess you are looking at space saving formats.

My suggestion in this area is to do your initial capture first in top quality dvd mode to get the best digital source first. Then make your dvd and from your dvd source use that to make your digital backup as you would from a store bought dvd. Then you can easily convert that to divx/xvid or h264 depending on your personal preference.

[lordsmurf]

Nothing has really changed in at least 5 years now, in terms of methods and tech.
If anything, less quality hardware is available now.

[MadMax_911]

I'm fully aware that bluray wont make anything look better, I was just thinking in terms of compression and space. I would prefer several VHS tapes on the same disc, one 4 hour tape on a DVD5 is going to force the bitrate too low for MPEG2. With h264 I've seen good looking encodings at 1500kbit/s that would make it possible to have two tapes per DVD9. AVCHD on DVD can contain h264 at standard definition resolution if I understand correctly what's the downside of this if the I have a player that support it.


My capture and source will be lossless as I do not like the idea of a compressed source for editing.

[lordsmurf]

Then don't put 4 hours on one DVD. Do 3 hours at Half D1.

H.264 is also influenced by cleanliness of source.
You can't make judgments about VHS>BD based one downloads of TV shows, etc.

But yes, there are merits to VHS>BD. Using high bitrates, for example, or non-block encoding.
It's just so costly, and DVD can indeed be "good enough" (very good) in quality.

I may give it a go here in October. Why not.
I have some old college videos on tape that don't compress well, and my WDTV does H.264 in MKV or MP4.
Don't even need a disc!
Keeping interlace is the key, however. Need to look into that.

[SatStorm]

I use hauppauge HD PVR to capture direct VHS to H264 and keep it interlace.

Looks good but it is not macroblock free, whatever the bitrate I use. H264 is good for low bitrate compression but on high bitrate compression I don't really see any benefits over mpeg 2.
In the matter of fact, it seems that keeping them DV remains the best way. But 13GB per hour is too much

[lordsmurf]

I want to see how it does for grainy handheld VHS camcorder tapes.
Hmmmm....

[MadMax_911]

I'm not planning on using x.264 for capture. I have time for encoding with high quality presets. I'll just have to test... BTW many of the tapes in this batch are sports, so mostly not grainy handheld, noisy high motion broadcasts of 3-4 hours...
I'm hoping 3000kbit/s x.264 will be able to outperform 5-6000kbit/s MPEG2 but I'll see, I'd love to be able to put one mountain of tapes on one disc when bluray burners and media are affordable.

lordsmurf what software/filterchain do you use for cleaning VHS tapes? When I did mine I had a script that I just tweaked a few parameters based on the tapes condition. My script is gone and my memory is rusty.

[ido22]

madmax_911, i'd love to hear if you found an optimal solution ? what software/filterchain/h264 settings did you use ?

as for bluray, from what I gathered, authoring won't be possible, as the specs are quite specific, and SD content (low res, etc) won't show on most players.

I do however assume most players in the future would be able to play mkv files with h264 content. so at least we'd hit that (and save a bunch of dvd's)

[pippas]

Why use discs at all for archiving in 2010?
If I was starting from scratch on capturing and archiving a VHS collection, I think I'd capture as DV - using a Canopus card or similar - edit and filter as required in Virtualdub, and then encode as x.264, store on hard drive and use a media player, like the WDTV or Popcorn hour for replay.

I have an increasing numbr of' burnt' DVDs from 4 or 5 years ago that are now corrupted --who's to say Blu-ray won't exhibit the same problems in a few years time.
HDD prices are now cheap enough to store and back up all your video data.
Media player for replay. No more 'burnt' discs.

Makes sense to me.

[ido22]

pippas, BR would be good just incase you want a non-tech person which can't stream from a pc to be able to watch those. my parents for example.

[PuzZLeR]

Personally, I believe the best option is to encode to a high quality format, such as DV, especially with very special content, and keep that as source if you wish to chuck your tapes. Yes it's huge, but it's high quality, very editable and hard drives are cheaper and cheaper all the time.

For VHS capture, you won't need higher rez than 720x576/480 anyway.

DV is also highly encodable - so if you retain this source you will always have good options to encode to such as DvD/BD-SD, even BD-HD for disc formats, iPod, DivX/Xvid, or H.264/MKV if media boxes are your bag.

As well, you can always redo it with any filters (deblocking, deinterlacing, denoising, color correction, etc) if you botch one here and there.

The point is that it doesn't matter - do what's right for you now - as long as you keep the DV to always have high quality options in the future since formats, and even your preferences, will be always changing.

If your content isn't that special, yet you wish to archive with a smaller format, a high bitrate, interlace retained, MPEG-2 would be my choice then as "source".

[victoriabears]

For NTSC I have been archiving using a Sharp a-852 VCR with super picture and a JVC M-100 dvd recorder, I am very pleased with the results.

[yoda313]

and keep that as source if you wish to chuck your tapes.

Never a good idea. Unless you're talking about dozens of tapes you should always keep the originals so as to have the absolute original source to start over with if need be.

Now if its of a lesser concern (something throw-away quality to keep just for posterity than yeah chuck away) you can do it. But if its at all important or more likely rare and not replaceable than don't throw away the original tape.

[2Bdecided]

But if its at all important or more likely rare and not replaceable than don't throw away the original tape.

- while this is generally very good advice (never throw away your original), in the case of VHS, if you do the "best" capture that can be done in 2010, I doubt you'll manage a better one later. In fact you may struggle to do as well in five years time, and I bet you won't be able to do as well in ten years time without spending silly money - I bet working VCRs will be very rare by then, and the tapes will probably have visibly aged.

Strange as it sounds, major broadcasters (e.g. the BBC) have transferred all their original analogue tapes to digital, and disposed of the analogue originals. They're ahead of the pack - broadcasters who haven't transferred their archives to digital are in for a shock: there are more hours of professional analogue video tape sat in archives than there are hours of head-life left in all the machines in the world - and they aren't making them any more.

Cheers,
David.

[PuzZLeR]

and keep that as source if you wish to chuck your tapes.

Never a good idea. Unless you're talking about dozens of tapes you should always keep the originals so as to have the absolute original source to start over with if need be.

Now if its of a lesser concern (something throw-away quality to keep just for posterity than yeah chuck away) you can do it. But if its at all important or more likely rare and not replaceable than don't throw away the original tape.

Hi Yoda, my post was more hypothetical in nature and the key word was "if" - suggesting a high quality, higher bitrate, digital capture, as replacement Source "if" you do indeed wish to, or must, chuck your tapes as some may wish to do so for a number of reasons.

However, personally, I agree - I too don't recommend disposing of any A-List content - you certainly don't want to throw out a tape with a family wedding video, child's birthday party, etc.

[PuzZLeR]

But if its at all important or more likely rare and not replaceable than don't throw away the original tape.

- while this is generally very good advice (never throw away your original), in the case of VHS, if you do the "best" capture that can be done in 2010, I doubt you'll manage a better one later. In fact you may struggle to do as well in five years time, and I bet you won't be able to do as well in ten years time without spending silly money - I bet working VCRs will be very rare by then, and the tapes will probably have visibly aged.

Strange as it sounds, major broadcasters (e.g. the BBC) have transferred all their original analogue tapes to digital, and disposed of the analogue originals. They're ahead of the pack - broadcasters who haven't transferred their archives to digital are in for a shock: there are more hours of professional analogue video tape sat in archives than there are hours of head-life left in all the machines in the world - and they aren't making them any more.

Interesting post I might add.

Personally, as long as it isn't something very special and personal, such as only a TV broadcast I wanted to archive, I'm always itching to drop a captured tape in the bin when done... but that's me.

Nevetheless, retain or chuck, I do believe we've reached the Law of Diminishing Returns as to just how good a digital capture of a VHS tape can be and this year here, 2010, could also be the "inflection point" - the optimal point, and best time to capture with the best balance of tech, formats, and working/available older and aging VCR equipment for playback.

There may never, ever, be a better time to capture your VHS tapes than now.

[PuzZLeR]

@MadMax_911: I don't think you'll have much new technology to look forward to the next ten years as you may have noticed since you underwent your project in the ten years since. As far as 480/576 DV, you really won't get much of a better capture than that to use as your (digital) Source.

And that is one of my points. You may feel overwhelmed with all these new choices, formats, filters to use, etc, etc, but the way I see it, it doesn't really matter.

What you use as Source is independent from what you use as a Target format. As long as you keep the Source, you'll always have options to encode to (DvD, BD, iPod, etc) and the better the Source, the better will be your options. So choose a Target playback that works for you now and put away a viable copy of your Source (tape, or high quality digital capture) in case things change.

It's actually quite simple IMO.

[movieguru]

I also am considering converting a big batch of S-VHS tapes to digital format. I recently had a service convert some super-8 movie film to DVD's and Blu-Ray discs. I then used a video editor to clean them up and burn them to Blu-Rays. I did a lot of experimenting with burning to DVD vs. Blu-Ray and for me the biggest advantage of Blu-Ray discs is that when playing them on my 50 inch plasma TV with a Blu-Ray player, the Blu-Ray versions did a better job of filling the screen, leaving only a thin vertical border on both sides. The DVD versions from the same source filled less of the TV. The other thing was the quality of the two different versions. I did not notice a big improvement of the Blu-Ray result over the standard DVD. The final advantage I see with the Blu-Ray's is the larger capacity of source video resulting in fewer discs. I did get some pixelation issues when trying to convert a DVD to Blu-Ray at the 1080 line setting, and these only went away when I dropped down to the 720 lines. Makes me wonder if I was pushing the resolution too much.

I am now considering converting my S-VHS to Blu-Ray, even though the quality of the image may not be improved much. I am looking for advice on which video transfer card or dongel to use to connect my S-VHS camera to my PC. I have given more information about my system in another post on this forum, but I think my concerns are also covered in this thread.

[sanlyn]

Why use discs at all for archiving in 2010?

Because Grandma and Uncle Henry don't know how to access the family videos from from a hard drive. And when the 3TB of video develops a problem, what do you tell them?

[jagabo]

And when the 3TB of video develops a problem, what do you tell them?

"No problem. Here's the backup."

[Brad]

2010.
2013.

Hmm...

[sanlyn]

And when the 3TB of video develops a problem, what do you tell them?

"No problem. Here's the backup."

Grandma: "Back up my what? You'll have to drive over here every time I want to see my daughter's wedding on TV. I'm no geek!"

[jagabo]

And when the 3TB of video develops a problem, what do you tell them?

"No problem. Here's the backup."

Grandma: "Back up my what?

You, of course, backed up up the 3TB disk when you made it for her.

[2Bdecided]

If the HDD is plugged into their (compatible) TV, it's probably easier to play than a DVD!

[sanlyn]

I'm afraid it just doesn't work with many over-50's. Many don't even know how to load a disk. Look, folks, I have archives on external drives all over the place (to be played with my players, which play them better than my TV's ever could). But I give DVD-R's to the relatives and a couple of rest homes. I'm not saying don't use drives and/or servers. I am saying that many people -- including some younger ones -- don't have the slightest idea what this hard drive stuff is about. And with some you even have to load the damn DVD-R or BD for them. So be prepared to burn a few. For me and the wife and a few technically savvy friends, the drives work OK.

Jeez.

[yoda313]

Just a side issue too is from what I've read 3tb drives aren't universally recognized yet so you wasted a drive in this instance.