PAL to NTSC and black level

[Mike99]

This is similar to a previous posting of mine, but I feel different enough to warrant its own thread.

Let’s say I want to play a UK Region 2 PAL DVD and view it on a USA HDTV. And I use a Pioneer or Philips DVD player that can convert & be made region free.

Scenario #1 uses a composite video connection. Since this is a Region 2 DVD, will the player convert to NTSC for Region 2? This would be NTSC-J for Japan which has 0 IRE black level & therefore would not be correct when displaying on a USA HDTV.

Scenario #2 uses an HDMI connection. Would the player convert to NTSC-J with the wrong black level and then convert to HDMI? Since the black level is wrong, what happens during or after conversion to digital HDMI? Do you end up with a blacker-than-black condition?

I looked at a Pioneer & a Philips online manual and did not see anything relating to which NTSC format the players convert to, Japan or North America. And nothing about selecting output black levels. I apologized if I missed this information.

A review of the Pioneer DV-420V-K on Amazon indicated the reviewer was playing PAL discs & viewing in the USA. He was using a 1080p connection and said even after making some adjustments PAL discs still appeared a little dark. He said this unit converts directly from PAL 576i to 1080p. This should mean that the black level would be at 0 IRE all the way through, and therefore correct for digital HDMI. But obviously it was not.

Maybe this unit does not convert from 576i to 1080p as the reviewer thought. Even if it did, suppose you wanted to use a composite connection which would have to be 480i. Would a manufacturer go through the time & effort to convert both ways? IOW if it has to convert to 480i, would it also convert/upscale directly to 1080p? Or would it just upscale the 480i? Or maybe it is cheap & easy to do both. Is there a way to tell how a player does the conversion?

Getting back to my initial concern, which NTSC black level do most DVD players convert to? Is there a list or mention somewhere of which ones do it properly?

[edDV]

OK whoa!

I'm having a fundamental disconnect here.

"NTSC" DVD discs (N. America or Japan) have black defined as digital level 16 and white as digital level 235.

"PAL" DVD discs have black defined as digital level 16 and white as digital level 235.

All the analog conversion is a local player issue. For example, an NTSC-J player maps digital 16 to analog 0 IRE where an NTSC-M player maps digital 16 to analog 7.5 IRE. Both map digital 235 to analog 100 IRE.

So the remaining question is ... What do NTSC-M players do with PAL to analog NTSC conversion?

Each player needs testing but I could swear the Philips 5990/92 isn't crushing blacks when playing PAL tapes. I'll try to test it in the next few days.

I have a Chinese DVD player that plays NTSC as NTSC and PAL as PAL. Problem is the NTSC is NTSC-J so both standards map digital 16 to 0 IRE.

[edDV]

Quoting myself here

"NTSC" DVD discs (N. America or Japan) have black defined as digital level 16 and white as digital level 235.

In other words, there is no such thing as an NTSC-J or NTSC-M DVD. There is only NTSC.

Even extending this to Brazil's PAL-M (720x480i/29.97 or 720x480p/23.976)...

There is no such thing as a PAL-M DVD. They use the same "NTSC" standard DVD as we do. Digital to analog PAL-M composite or S-Video conversion is a player issue.

[edDV]

Scenario #2 uses an HDMI connection. Would the player convert to NTSC-J with the wrong black level and then convert to HDMI? Since the black level is wrong, what happens during or after conversion to digital HDMI? Do you end up with a blacker-than-black condition?

HDMI is a digital connection. There is no difference in digital black/white levels for the various regions. Differences would apply only to analog black levels.

8 bit digital YCbCr is always 16-235
8 bit digital RGB can be either 16-235 (aka "studio RGB") or 0-255 (computer RGB).

HDMI has flags to tell the display whether the data stream is 8 or 10 bit YCbCr or various RGB formats. HDMI is uncompressed. DVD is always 8 bit YCbCr encoded 4:2:0 YV12 MPeg2.

[Mike99]

edDV,

Thank you for the reply.

You pretty much summarized it with the statement:

“So the remaining question is ... What do NTSC-M players do with PAL to analog NTSC conversion?”

Part 1 -
Would a manufacturer make two different versions of the same model, with one for only North America which has nothing to convert? If there are no Region 1 PAL DVDs, then converting to NTSC is a moot point. There would be no reason or motivation for a manufacturer to have a Region 1 player convert. Therefore they might just leave the conversion process set the way it is for Region 2, which means all the conversions to NTSC would be to the NTSC-J. IOW why would they go out of their way and/or increase their cost for a non-function? Maybe all the converting USA players do convert to 7.5 IRE, but I see no reference to black levels in the online manuals.

Part 2 -
From searching the Internet it appears there are two ways to convert UK PAL to USA 1080p. The best way is go directly from PAL 576i to HDMI 1080p. But it appears a lot of players go from PAL 576i down to NTSC 480i and then up convert to HDMI 1080p.

I’m curious what happens in the second scenario. The first step (PAL 576i down to NTSC 480i ) has to change the black level to 7.5 IRE in case the DVD player is connected via composite or S-video to the TV. When the player does the second step, does it upscale from the 576i data on the disc or from the 480i data that has been generated?

That reviewer on Amazon did mention his Pioneer player was a Japanese model made for tourists. And his PAL discs appeared slightly dark, even though he was using a 1080p connection. He also said this unit converts directly from PAL 576i to 1080p. But maybe he was given wrong information.

This is what made me think perhaps his player does convert to 480i first & change the black level. And then the upscaling to 1080p is based on the 480i with 7.5 IRE data that has been generated. And maybe somehow that 7.5 IRE data gets carried along in the upscaling process. Is something like that even possible?

I’m certainly no expert & have just enough knowledge to get me confused. Any additional information that you can share is always appreciated.

Thanks in advance.