Hauppauge PVR-150 (PAL Version) Recording NTSC Source: Impossible?

[darkarn]

If the Hauppage PVR 150 can't be made to work, this is the EZCap model that is supposed to be able to capture PAL60 in color. http://www.ezcap.tv/

Heard about that too!

And even though my current problem is somewhat solved, I hope to be able to know any other methods to record PAL 60; I sense a need for that soon!

PS: I think I know why I made that error; apparently, the TV card was connected to the TV Out ports of my TV... Will that make any difference?

[darkarn]

As for other programs, I am thinking of BeyondTV, DScaler and SageTV...

Back from some quick testing...

Apparently, most programs do not work with PAL 60 well except Windows Movie Maker so far; it will convert your videos to WMV though...

Clarification: Actually, some programs allow you to watch PAL 60, but as they record only .avi files, they will fail as the output files will be using HCW2 codec, which is somewhat non-existant... =(

The programs are VirtualDub, Windows Media Capture.

DScaler, AmCap and VirtualVCR failed entirely though... =(

Will test with NPVR tonight...

[The_Doman]

No luck with WinTV7 so far...

EDIT: But WinTV 2000 works though...

I did not even try the newer WinTV7 version.
From what i read about that WinTV7 you can't even use it for normal recording from the external inputs??

Too bad my VCR does not have a S-Video out...

Ofcourse S-Video is only available on S-VHS VCR's.
But if you want to make the most out of your PVR-150 you always should try to use it with a S-Video signal.
It is worth to just use a (old, broken) S-VHS/DVDR just for the conversion from composite to S-Video step.

Some old discussion about the Composite/S-Video issue with the PVR15-/500 cards:
SHSPVR: Poor Picture Quality with PVR 150 MCE Analog Capture
SHSPVR: PVR150/500 Comb Tweaks

I will include a file with talked about register tweaks to adjust the comb filters on the PVR150/500, it seems they were lost on the SHSPVR forum.
I don't know if those tweaks still work correctly with the very latest drivers.

And even though my current problem is somewhat solved, I hope to be able to know any other methods to record PAL 60; I sense a need for that soon!

PS: I think I know why I made that error; apparently, the TV card was connected to the TV Out ports of my TV... Will that make any difference?

I tested also with some cheap (Asus) TV-card based on the Philips SAA713x Chipset.
This card detected PAL-60 automatically and could be captured with Virtualdub, AVI-IO and others.

From what i understand your TV converts the incoming PAL-60 signal back again to the 'normal' NTSC-M standard.
I am quite suprised that it works like that, that is a very nice trick.
What TV did you use for that?

But you should try which gives you the best results.
Connecting you VCR directly and capture in PAL-60 or use your TV to capture in NTSC-M?
Maybe the PVR will work better with the true NTSC-M signal?

Possible the TV will stabilize/improve the signal too?
VHS signals without TBC are notorious unstable, specially the PVR-150 cards are very sensitive for that, causing all sorts of problems.

Apparently, most programs do not work with PAL 60 well except Windows Movie Maker so far; it will convert your videos to WMV though...

Clarification: Actually, some programs allow you to watch PAL 60, but as they record only .avi files, they will fail as the output files will be using HCW2 codec, which is somewhat non-existant... =(

The programs are VirtualDub, Windows Media Capture.

DScaler, AmCap and VirtualVCR failed entirely though... =(

Yes, the usual problem.
Most of those capture software can't even work correctly in normal PAL/NTSC mode with the PVR-150/500.
The PVR-150 cards use a hardware MPEG2 compression chipset.
Because of this most 'normal' capture software can't work with this correctly.
Even if you manage to get a good picture there is often the problem of no sound.
The older PVR250 series is much more compatible from what i read, you can more easily bypass the HW encoder to use it like a regular 'dumb' capture card.

I still have a PVR250 here to test that out.

So until now the only way i know to to use the PAL-60 and hardware compression with the PVR-150 is with this ChrisPVR trick.

[darkarn]

I did not even try the newer WinTV7 version.
From what i read about that WinTV7 you can't even use it for normal recording from the external inputs?

You can... But no matter what format you choose, you will still be stuck with PAL_B!

Of course S-Video is only available on S-VHS VCR's.
But if you want to make the most out of your PVR-150 you always should try to use it with a S-Video signal.
It is worth to just use a (old, broken) S-VHS/DVDR just for the conversion from composite to S-Video step.

Whoa, that will be a tough one...

Some old discussion about the Composite/S-Video issue with the PVR15-/500 cards:
SHSPVR: Poor Picture Quality with PVR 150 MCE Analog Capture
SHSPVR: PVR150/500 Comb Tweaks

I will include a file with talked about register tweaks to adjust the comb filters on the PVR150/500, it seems they were lost on the SHSPVR forum.
I don't know if those tweaks still work correctly with the very latest drivers.

Thanks, will give them a shot with the new drivers... Which driver have you used these with?

I tested also with some cheap (Asus) TV-card based on the Philips SAA713x Chipset.
This card detected PAL-60 automatically and could be captured with Virtualdub, AVI-IO and others.

If that's the case, will any card with the Philips SAA713x chipset work?

From what i understand your TV converts the incoming PAL-60 signal back again to the 'normal' NTSC-M standard.
I am quite suprised that it works like that, that is a very nice trick.
What TV did you use for that?

Unfortunately, I just found out the TV also transmit the same NTSC 3.58 signal the VCR does too!

However, if I can ever produce a PAL 60 signal that becomes a NTSC signal, I will post here...

But you should try which gives you the best results.
Connecting you VCR directly and capture in PAL-60 or use your TV to capture in NTSC-M?
Maybe the PVR will work better with the true NTSC-M signal?

Possible the TV will stabilize/improve the signal too?
VHS signals without TBC are notorious unstable, specially the PVR-150 cards are very sensitive for that, causing all sorts of problems.

If only my TV has S-video output... So far, both outputs look the same to me...

Yes, the usual problem.
Most of those capture software can't even work correctly in normal PAL/NTSC mode with the PVR-150/500.
The PVR-150 cards use a hardware MPEG2 compression chipset.
Because of this most 'normal' capture software can't work with this correctly.
Even if you manage to get a good picture there is often the problem of no sound.
The older PVR250 series is much more compatible from what i read, you can more easily bypass the HW encoder to use it like a regular 'dumb' capture card.

I still have a PVR250 here to test that out.

So until now the only way i know to to use the PAL-60 and hardware compression with the PVR-150 is with this ChrisPVR trick.

Yep, seems to be the case. I am testing out NPVR right now... Will post back soon!

[darkarn]

Ok, done a test run with NPVR... No go either...

[danno78]

I tested also with some cheap (Asus) TV-card based on the Philips SAA713x Chipset.
This card detected PAL-60 automatically and could be captured with Virtualdub, AVI-IO and others.

If that's the case, will any card with the Philips SAA713x chipset work?

Yes.

However, if I can ever produce a PAL 60 signal that becomes a NTSC signal, I will post here...

I think the only way to that is to find a DVD recorder which accept PAL60 signal and also support passtrough mode. Is unlikely that PAL60 signal is send at back. The only recorders that can deal with PAL60 is some Pioneer models. TBC and passtrough is also there. Nobody tested this theory. You can be the first...

[The_Doman]

You can... But no matter what format you choose, you will still be stuck with PAL_B!

AH, well maybe there are patches to enable the other video modes.
If not you could try to set your windows country settings to match the video standard you want to use.
I remember now i had to do that too with some TV cards i used in the past.
But i guess you are better off just using the WinTV2000 application, at least that should work.

Whoa, that will be a tough one...

Maybe, but these days lots of people want to get rid of their video equipment it seems.
I have picked up some JVC S-VHS VCR's (Fully working, even with TBC!) here at a local recycle shop for 10 Euro!.
Seeing all that, once very expensive, equipment there sometimes is all a bit sad to see.

Thanks, will give them a shot with the new drivers... Which driver have you used these with?

All i know about the drivers is discussed there on the SHSPVR forum, i have no experience with the more recent drivers and composite video input.
Maybe the patches can improve things, but when you use only VHS tape as a source it will be diffcult to see the effect i guess.

If that's the case, will any card with the Philips SAA713x chipset work?

It should normally, but ofcourse you never know for sure.
The original ASUS drivers i used for that card worked correctly with PAL-60, but some other generic SAA713x drivers failed on PAL-60.
The resulting capture quality of that card was not that great, at least my old Pinaccle BT878 card with the BTWINCAP driver seemed to do a better job.

I have to say that Asus Tv card was very simple/rudimentary, it did not even have normal A/V connection so had to wire my cables directly to some available jumpers on the board to do some quick tests.

Unfortunately, I just found out the TV also transmit the same NTSC 3.58 signal the VCR does too!


However, if I can ever produce a PAL 60 signal that becomes a NTSC signal, I will post here...

If only my TV has S-video output... So far, both outputs look the same to me...

Ah, it already sounded too good to be true ofcourse.
But that is the normal behaviour of most of the (European) TV's they just passing the incoming (SCART) videosignal through to to SCART output, the signal itself is not changed at all.
Doing a real video-standard conversion and/or stabilization is not a simple task.
And the TV-output feature is generally only working with composite video too.
So no S-Video possibilties there.

But funny after all you did not need the whole PAL-60 stuff to do your captures.
But at least the result is a intresting and very informative thread here.

Yep, seems to be the case. I am testing out NPVR right now... Will post back soon!

There is a possibility this program can also do it because PAL60 is mentioned in the description: WinTVCap 3.0
But it is a command line driven capture tool, so not so user friendly.

[The_Doman]

I think the only way to that is to find a DVD recorder which accept PAL60 signal and also support passtrough mode. Is unlikely that PAL60 signal is send at back. The only recorders that can deal with PAL60 is some Pioneer models. TBC and passtrough is also there. Nobody tested this theory. You can be the first...

If it uses passthough then it will do just that i guess, not changing the signal at all.
I known (some?) european Philips DVD-recorders can do PAL60 too, also there are quite a few low budget unknown brands here which seem to support it.

[darkarn]

I think the only way to that is to find a DVD recorder which accept PAL60 signal and also support passtrough mode. Is unlikely that PAL60 signal is send at back. The only recorders that can deal with PAL60 is some Pioneer models. TBC and passtrough is also there. Nobody tested this theory. You can be the first...

We shall see...

[darkarn]

AH, well maybe there are patches to enable the other video modes.
If not you could try to set your windows country settings to match the video standard you want to use.
I remember now i had to do that too with some TV cards i used in the past.
But i guess you are better off just using the WinTV2000 application, at least that should work.

Sticking with WinTV2000 for now, I can use it to record videos at extremely high bitrates!

Maybe, but these days lots of people want to get rid of their video equipment it seems.
I have picked up some JVC S-VHS VCR's (Fully working, even with TBC!) here at a local recycle shop for 10 Euro!.
Seeing all that, once very expensive, equipment there sometimes is all a bit sad to see.

Situation's kinda different here... People here have done the same... years ago. Now, it's nearly impossible to get VCRs here, let alone S-VHS VCRs. There is a shop that quoted me 100 SGD for a new VCR though, can't really afford that...

All i know about the drivers is discussed there on the SHSPVR forum, i have no experience with the more recent drivers and composite video input.
Maybe the patches can improve things, but when you use only VHS tape as a source it will be diffcult to see the effect i guess.

Well, let me try them over the weekend then...

It should normally, but ofcourse you never know for sure.
The original ASUS drivers i used for that card worked correctly with PAL-60, but some other generic SAA713x drivers failed on PAL-60.
The resulting capture quality of that card was not that great, at least my old Pinaccle BT878 card with the BTWINCAP driver seemed to do a better job.

I have to say that Asus Tv card was very simple/rudimentary, it did not even have normal A/V connection so had to wire my cables directly to some available jumpers on the board to do some quick tests.

That's amazing!

Ah, it already sounded too good to be true ofcourse.
But that is the normal behaviour of most of the (European) TV's they just passing the incoming (SCART) videosignal through to to SCART output, the signal itself is not changed at all.
Doing a real video-standard conversion and/or stabilization is not a simple task.
And the TV-output feature is generally only working with composite video too.
So no S-Video possibilties there.

But funny after all you did not need the whole PAL-60 stuff to do your captures.
But at least the result is a intresting and very informative thread here.

1. Seems to be the case; my TV is like a passthrough device at best... The video captured looks darker than what is shown on the TV itself for example.
2. Yep, looks like it. But a little more knowledge goes a long way... I must have read too much into those reports on PAL 60...

There is a possibility this program can also do it because PAL60 is mentioned in the description: WinTVCap 3.0
But it is a command line driven capture tool, so not so user friendly.

We can use WinTVCap GUI with that, will make things easier. But I don't see anything in the config files that is about video format so far...

[lordsmurf]

I wanted to capture a two-hour video before posting my results. Audio drifted on the first long test.
Satstorm warned of this in a post about 6-7 years ago.

Will try again when I get some time.

[darkarn]

Thanks! And audio drifting is when the audio is no longer in sync with the video, right?

[lordsmurf]

Yes, it's a gradual loss of sync.

I tried to offset the audio by 100.1%, but the source file kept crashing, like it was bad. I dumped the entire capture, and will redo it when I can. My ATI AIW card on my main capture system has PAL60, but it doesn't work correctly with the current drivers. PAL60 is not a friendly format.

[The_Doman]

If it uses passthough then it will do just that i guess, not changing the signal at all.
I known (some?) european Philips DVD-recorders can do PAL60 too, also there are quite a few low budget unknown brands here which seem to support it.

I have some intresting update on this.

Today I visited my local recycling shop again and what did i see there.... some unknown brand DVDR+HDD for 20 Euro.

So after taking it home i discovered it was a "Oasis Media DVR9407" recorder with a 160GB HDD, in full working order it seems.
After some investigation and (urgently needed) upgrade of the firmware it appears to be a modified version (for the dutch/german market) of the Yakumo DVD Record Master HDD.
I noticed this unit had a universal power supply so that made me think it could possible handle PAL-60.

And YES, it works!

Even more suprising is the fact it can record a PAL-60 signal and also convert the looped through or playback signal to true NTSC-M which i could record again with WinTV2000 and my PVR-150.
Also it can somehow convert between PAL and NTSC if you choose the desired output mode.

A very intresting find i must say, always nice to see how flexible those cheap brands kan operate.
Also it seems you can connect the internal HD to a PC and easily copy the recordings directly without much diffculty.

The only real thing 'missing' on this new 'toy' is the SCART RGB input option.

I did not have time to compare the recording quality with my other capture equipment here but i could easily see the result was already much better then the PAL/PAL-60 VHS captures i did with the TV-cards.

[darkarn]

Yes, it's a gradual loss of sync.

I tried to offset the audio by 100.1%, but the source file kept crashing, like it was bad. I dumped the entire capture, and will redo it when I can. My ATI AIW card on my main capture system has PAL60, but it doesn't work correctly with the current drivers. PAL60 is not a friendly format.

PAL 60 is sure a tough one to deal with; look at the amount of threads dedicated to it! How about just recording the video with the card and use your soundcard to record the sound?

[darkarn]

Today I visited my local recycling shop again and what did i see there.... some unknown brand DVDR+HDD for 20 Euro.

How lucky!

But I did a check just now in many shops; they are somewhat amused at my request...

I guess I just have to make do with whatever I have...

[SatStorm]

Pal60? That bring back memories! And that reminds me that I still have to convert the Betty Boo VHS collection to DVD one day...

Actually I use an ACE video enhancer unit now, that converts PAL60 back to NTSC. And I capture to NTSC. That make it far easier ...

But that is expensive.
And the only other way to do this correct, is by using any BT8XXX based card, the winbitcap drivers & VirtualVCR. You have to capture on mjpeg to do the trick (I use Pic Video codec myself). I never had any luck with huffyuv or any other video codec. Who knows why... (and my testing about PAL60 ended years ago)

On VirtualVCR just don't forget to lock video / audio, capture as PAL60 and then encode your avi file as NTSC mpeg 2.

S-Video / Composite doesn't really matter. Actually, I think that Composite look better in this case.

PAL60 is a nightmare, but it is nothing compared those 1980s MESECAM tapes...

[The_Doman]

And the only other way to do this correct, is by using any BT8XXX based card, the winbitcap drivers & VirtualVCR. You have to capture on mjpeg to do the trick (I use Pic Video codec myself). I never had any luck with huffyuv or any other video codec. Who knows why... (and my testing about PAL60 ended years ago)

On VirtualVCR just don't forget to lock video / audio, capture as PAL60 and then encode your avi file as NTSC mpeg 2.

Be careful there, not any BTXXXcard will work, you need a BT878 or higher chipset to use the PAL-60 (and NTSC50) modes.
And yes the MJPEG/PICVideo codec was, and still is, great.

An for me the best AVI capture tool to keep the A/V perfectly in sync is still AVI-IO.

With VirtualVCR i never got it perfect.

[darkarn]

PAL60 is a nightmare, but it is nothing compared those 1980s MESECAM tapes...

Hmmm... Those black and white tapes?

[darkarn]

With VirtualVCR i never got it perfect.

I can't get that to work with my card in the first place...

[darkarn]

Ok, I am not sure if this is a related issue, but I just noticed that my recordings have some blurred lines under them... How should I get rid of them?

[jagabo]

Are you talking about head switching noise at the bottom of the frame? A dozen scan lines or so? That's head switching noise and it's on the tape. All you can do is mask it or crop it.

[darkarn]

Aww man... Will do, thanks; now still recording more tapes, have not encountered a PAL 60 yet...

[The_Doman]

Aww man... Will do, thanks; now still recording more tapes, have not encountered a PAL 60 yet...

Of course the PAL-60 format does not exist as a tape format, it's only with playback on european machines you will see that format.

Also i think the Hauppauge PVR-Cards will work better with a true NTSC signal as you now use instead of PAL-60.
There were/are always many issues with the PAL versions of the Hauppauge cards.