Deterioration of Super 8 films

[marklewis]

I'm putting this question here because I do a lot of capture of Super 8.

However along the way I've noticed that super 8 films deteriorate in particular ways. In particular, the join between frames seems to develop 'dust'. As if fluff was stuck to the join. But there isnt any!

I'm wondering if anyone knows why super 8 might deteriorate in this way.

I assume that restoring the films to perfect condition is a lengthy process. Has anyone managed that?

[filmboss80]

...In particular, the join between frames seems to develop 'dust'. As if fluff was stuck to the join. But there isnt any!

Are you talking about splice points? If tape splices were used, then they could have become brittle over the years, with air bubbles beneath or adhesive clumping up. That could give the illusion of dust and dirt.

Or does your phrase, "the join between the frames" refer to something else? Like dust in the projector gate, but not on film.

Various photo shops or movie film supply companies have film cleaning products (I buy from www.boothsupplies.com), but little restoration can be done to the film itself when colors fade. (In particular, some Kodachrome stock made in the late '60s and '70s was notorious for fading to red. I'm still cursing Kodak for that one.)

[marklewis]

No I mean actually between images. It seems to me that Super 8 is composed of individual images one after the other. I mean the apparent join between of these image frames.

[filmboss80]

Yes, movie film is a sequence of still images, one after the other. There is no dust between frames. In fact, the line between Super-8 frames is very thin. What it sounds like you are talking about is dust and crud in the projector gate that tends to manifest at frame edges. You see this at the periphery of the projected image. Use an air blower and wet cotton swab to clean. For dirtier projectors, the link I provided in my previous post will lead you to projector and film-path cleaning solutions.

[marklewis]

No, I've checked and I clean the gate regularly. Its definitely something incrusted in between frames within the film

[DB83]

You could always hire that electron microscope to prove your theory about the dust between the frames on cine film.

The simple fact is that when the film passes through the gate you will not see the gap so any dust must either be on the frame itself or, as already been said, and most likely, accumulated on the projector gate.

And, as you are dealing with such tiny material, any dust is going to appear 'huge' when projected.

[filmboss80]

I think we are having a terminology problem here, and I want to be clear on your meaning of "frame" and "join." Depending on camera settings, Super-8 film was between 18 and 25 frames per second. Are you saying that there are 18 to 25 flashes of dust per second, or are you talking about dust at scene-changes? When you talk about the "join" between frames, are you talking about the hair-thin black lines that divide one individual frame from another, or are you talking about physical splices that join one section of film to another?

I've worked in film for more decades than I care to admit, but in this instance, I'm having difficulty figuring out what you're talking about.

Please feel free to post an image or clip.

EDIT: It took me a while to notice that you are from France. Terminology may be differently applied. Also, the earlier web link to film cleaning supplies might not be helpful for you.

[DB83]

18 or 24 fps actually.

But my friend is right. If you are talking about a splice join that will encroach an actual frame and any 'rubbish' on that - certainly if tape was used rather than cement - will show up.

[marklewis]

OK I may try to find a photo of this in the future but I've just cleared out my disk unfortunately. But I am talking about the 'the hair-thin black lines that divide one individual frame from another'. Its as if this join has degraded in some way.

[DB83]

I may be hitting my head against a brick wall here but this thread could stall on your insistance/persistance on this 'join' between frames.

You do know how movie works? - an exposure by light on light-sensitive material. For movie, that 18 or 24 times every second a roll of material passes over a light source and prints an mage on the material. The bit that is not exposed to the light is your imaginary join. The individual frames are not joined unless you edit the roll of material.

Now place that same roll in a projector and there a is a compensatory exposure of light to the same part of the roll that was originally printed on. That is the gate. The imaginary join is not seen when the roll passes through the projector.

It now follows that if some damage is being done to the roll it should affect ANY part of it and not just this imaginary join.

[filmboss80]

My head has already hit the brick wall. However, I did think about one other possibility. Perhaps there was dust or crud in the film gate of the movie camera that took the original film images. Theoretically, the dust shadows could have been exposed onto the film. So, even if both film and projector are clean as a whistle, the dust seen at the edges of the frame could actually be part of the exposed image.

I'm stretching here, I know. Unless I see the film itself, I still cannot tell for sure what the issue is.

And yes, my old Super-8 cameras and projectors had only the choices of 18 or 24 fps. I just didn't want to make assumptions about European film speeds.

[DB83]

A little off-topic here but 24fps is the standard for any sound film irresprective of size beit 8mm, 16mm or 35mm and irrespective of country.

18 fps is the standard for super 8 and regular 8 silent.

I believe that there were also lower speed films(16 fps?) which is why when you look at these in modern equipment they appear somewhat speeded up.

[2Bdecided]

Silent film speed isn't very "standard" - especially not from hand-cranked or clockwork cameras. It can sometimes vary within a single shot as the clockwork motor runs down!

Cheers,
David.