AC-3 and Wave 5.1 frustration revisited...

[takearushfan]

Hi again,

I've already asked for help on this topic, but I thought I'd provide some details that might help.

I'm using Windows 7, with the SigmaTel High Definition Audio CODEC.

I'd like to end up with an AC-3 that plays each channel correctly.

What works:

Using Audition's Surround encoder, then exporting a 6-channel interleaved 16-bit Wave. This results in an EXSTENIBLE Wave, which plays properly on all channels.

What doesn't work:

Apparently, everything else. SurCode, Soft Encode, BeSweet, etc., including several apps that members of this site have suggested. When encoding or even previewing my mixes with these apps, each channel is fine except for the Surrounds. The SL and SRs play in the FL and FR speakers

This is painfully irritating. VirtualDubMod seems to be the only app that plays the interleaved Wave properly.

When playing a DVD, all channels work properly.

Why is this happening. Why isn't this working? What am I doing wrong? I'm sick of tearing my hair out

Thank you for any help you can provide,

Justin

[El Heggunte]

Does Audition work "perfectly" under Windows 7

BeSweet is dead, try BeHappy at least.

Soft Encode is outdated, not sure if it can function properly on your PC's OS,
Aften is a much-better choice.

Have you already tried to produce the 6-channel .WAV with other tools than Audition

[takearushfan]

Hi,

What do you mean by "perfectly"? The only issue I have with Audition is that it won't import videos, but that was a problem on XP as well.

I'll try BeHappy and see how that goes.

Soft Encode used to work properly on my current OS (Win 7), but something changed and now it doesn't map properly. Is "map" the proper term? "Assign" maybe? (please let me know) ... I don't know what changed and that peeves me... a lot.

I think I have Aften already. I had to download it for use with BeSweet.

Hm... you make a good point in that I don't think I've tried using other tools than Audition to create a 6-channel Wave.

Thanks for replying,

Justin

[El Heggunte]

Hi,

What do you mean by "perfectly"?

I mean, "no BIG bugs".

Soft Encode used to work properly on my current OS (Win 7), but something changed and now it doesn't map properly.
...
I don't know what changed and that peeves me... a lot.

Let's hope the issue can be fixed (or "worked around" at least)
without requiring a clean re-install of the OS.

I think I have Aften already. I had to download it for use with BeSweet.

If I am not mistaken, BeSweet "died" before the "birth" of Aften.

[takearushfan]

I'm running into some problems with BeHappy. Mind you, I haven't done extensive research or even really looked at the documentation. However, since I'm replying at the moment anyhow, I don't understand how you select the 6 files when attempting to create an AC-3. It only allows me to select a single file. Nonetheless, I did select a single file and chose to convert it to an AC-3. I ran into problems that were (partially) resolved by adding plug-ins. It would get past the previous errors and run into new ones. Unfortunately, I can't understand the error log. The log looks more like what an individual that's coding an app for Windows would find helpful, but not so helpful to someone that's simply trying to use the app

[takearushfan]

1. You're right. It wasn't Aften that I downloaded for BeSweet, it was Azid.
2. Could ASIO4ALL be causing some (or all) of my problems?
3. Can you check out the attached AC-3? It's a very small test I put together and I'm curious if it plays properly on your system. I encoded the playback order as FL, C, FR, SL, SR, LFE.
Thanks in advance.

[takearushfan]

1. You're right. It wasn't Aften that I downloaded for BeSweet, it was Azid.
2. Could ASIO4ALL be causing some (or all) of my problems?
3. Can you check out the attached AC-3? It's a very small test I put together and I'm curious if it plays properly on your system. I encoded the playback order as FL, C, FR, SL, SR, LFE.
Thanks in advance.

I'm sorry for the bump, but I read on this site that it's okay to do so if a poster received no reply after 3 days. Surely there is someone out there that is kind enough to test this file for me, please.
Thanks,
Justin

[Nelson37]

I believe I suggested this before, but ...

There are demo files you can download which clearly state, by voice, "Front Left", etc. This makes it MUCH easier to clarify correct mapping. You do not have to refer to any listing to figure out which speaker should be active, the sound itself makes it obvious.

Also, they serve as a useful check for a Known Good file to determine if speakers/amp are set up correctly in the first place.

[takearushfan]

Hi. Yeah, I tried those and and appears well. The same when I play a DVD. It's something about the encoding that doesn't work

[Nelson37]

Take the demo file, convert to WAV, and encode THAT. TRUST ME, avoiding the confusion when testing is well worth it. This will totally eliminate one area of uncertainty. Test BOTH pc playback and from a DVD, these are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT playback methods and you cannot be certain both are identical without extensive testing. the demo file mkaes this much easier.

[takearushfan]

Hi again. Sorry for the late reply.

Do you have any recommendations as to where to find the best demo files? I searched Google and I can't find the speech demos. Also, you said to take the demo file, which I'm assuming is an AC-3, convert it to WAV, then encode it back to an AC-3?

[Nelson37]

Here's a vob file. Burn and test, then strip the AC-3, convert to 6 waves, re-convert using your software, burn and test again.

Test in standalone AND on the PC.

[takearushfan]

Okay. When playing the VOB right after downloading, all channels play appropriately. I don't have a 5.1 setup on my standalone, so I can't test that; just my PC. After stripping the AC-3, converting to 6 Waves and re-converting, all is well, except for the Surrounds... SR and SL play on FR and FL, respectively.

[Nelson37]

Did you convert to VOB after re-encoding? All phases of the test environment must be the same. Yes, a raw AC-3 and a VOB containing the same sound file can be output differently.

I don't currently have my 5.1 all set up, I just know you're gonna make me do that, aren't you? I suppose I could do it with headphones and jack-swapping like I did originally.

Post some screen shots of the software config for the AC-3 encode. Sounds like you are getting only 2.1.

[takearushfan]

Hi. Before I go any further, I should mention that I really do appreciate your help. I mean, this must be incredibly frustrating to you as well. So, thank you
That said, I just woke up, so I'll get back to posting the screen-shots later.
Have a good one
- Justin

[takearushfan]

Hey again. I re-read your request and I'm a bit confused by what you meant. What screen-shots do you want me to post, specifically? Do you want me to post shots of each step when attempting the encode, a single shot of the configuration options, etc.?
Regarding the 2.1, I don't understand why things are so screwed. Someone suggested that I might have simulated 5.1. That's not the case. I have a genuine 5.1 setup. My encoding used to work fine. Now Audition is all that works. Of course, this is why I'm posting, so I don't really know why I just typed what I did.

[Nelson37]

Whatever config options when you encode to ac-3, post those. Use BeHappy or BeSweet, simply cause I have done BeSweet in the past and can reproduce those easier. Though right now, my main utility workstation is out on loan.

As for the 6-channel WAVE, abandon that. Start with 6 individual WAV files. When you say Audition "works", it does not create a valid 6-channel ac-3, so NO, it does NOT work. A valid 6-channel WAVE is interesting, but not very useful. Almost every prog I've ever used to create AC-3 needs individual WAVE files, IMO the interleaved WAV is a dead end.

I spent YEARS trying to figure out how to capture these thru SPDIF. Maybe two or three others were attempting the same thing. Verifying these with only stereo speakers and no AC-3 amp was loads of fun. I still remember the day I read a post containing the one or two pieces of missing info, what a rush! Getting almost there when my sound card died, ordering a pricey card which could do the job, except it had ONE bad input out of 10 or more connections, the ONE bad input being SPDIF-in!!!

So I get the frustration, and recognize the effort. Keep whacking away, it DOES work, it CAN work, and you WILL get there.

[takearushfan]

Okay. I've attached a couple screen-shots of my attempt with BeSweet. It's nothing in-depth, but maybe even just these two snapshots will already reveal something I'm doing wrong *shrug*
Thanks again
- Justin

[Nelson37]

OK.

Well, first, you want 6 INDIVIDUAL wav files. Test EACH and EVERY one. They will not play in the designated speakers, but you can verify EACH file.

Next step is to specify these 6 to the encoder, at which point BeSweet is screwing with me, I may try Aften. So far BeSweet only lets me choose ONE input file and then slows it down 50%.

I had forgotten how much FUN this cpuld be!

Currently I get LF, C, RF all seperate, the surrounds play front AND back, and LFE seems to be everywhere. Actually, this is supposed to be happening as I am currently running stereo out to a 5.1 amp. DVD player is in another room.

Note that my playback situation is not all that different from yours, with a KNOWN GOOD file.

[Nelson37]

Well, Crap. Apparently both BeSweet and Aften want a single, muxed WAV file. Sumbitch.

Do your SL and SR actually play in the Surround (rear) speakers, AS WELL AS the Front set? That is exactly what I am getting, although I get it from the original VOB and also the re-encoded file. Again, this is with Stereo out to the AMP, so I do not expect correct seperation.

Time to do a little re-arrangement.

[Nelson37]

Well, this is absolutely Fascinating. Using Optical SPDIF-out, I am getting the exact same results and I am NOT getting a Dolby Digital icon on the amp.

[takearushfan]

OK.

Well, first, you want 6 INDIVIDUAL wav files. Test EACH and EVERY one. They will not play in the designated speakers, but you can verify EACH file.

Next step is to specify these 6 to the encoder, at which point BeSweet is screwing with me, I may try Aften. So far BeSweet only lets me choose ONE input file and then slows it down 50%.

I had forgotten how much FUN this cpuld be!

Currently I get LF, C, RF all seperate, the surrounds play front AND back, and LFE seems to be everywhere. Actually, this is supposed to be happening as I am currently running stereo out to a 5.1 amp. DVD player is in another room.

Note that my playback situation is not all that different from yours, with a KNOWN GOOD file.

Hm. BeSweet lets me specify the mux file, so it knows which 6 Waves to create an AC-3 out of. Even though it doesn't play the channels properly, it doesn't slow it down at all *shrug*

Yep... "FUN"! ... God, I'm glad I found someone that understands my frustration.

It sounds like you're getting the same exact results as me! ... well, I get FL, C, FR fine, but the SL and SR play out of the Fronts. In addition, yep, the last time I tried an AC-3, the LFE came out of more than just the Sub-woofer

[takearushfan]

Well, Crap. Apparently both BeSweet and Aften want a single, muxed WAV file. Sumbitch.

Do your SL and SR actually play in the Surround (rear) speakers, AS WELL AS the Front set? That is exactly what I am getting, although I get it from the original VOB and also the re-encoded file. Again, this is with Stereo out to the AMP, so I do not expect correct seperation.

Time to do a little re-arrangement.

Oh, do you mean simultaneously? If so, when doing a "proper" test (meaning a test DVD/VOB), it doesn't play them simultaneously. It still plays them one at a time, but when it gets to the Surrounds, it's FL ... FR

[Nelson37]

Using two pair of headphones, except for the LFE channel, I can confirm the original VOB plays in each specific, designated channel and NO OTHER. LFE is supposed to show up in the front left, also there are supposed to be tones which I am not hearing at all.

I am using the headphone jacks plugged directly into the soundcard, which lets me designate which speakers they are. L/R, L/R-
Surround, and Center/LFE. I then isolate individual speakers on the headphones.

After encoding with Aften, the channel seperation is lost. I have so far not authored a VOB with the re-encoded AC-3, however the original AC-3 does playback correctly after being stripped from the VOB, so the testing environment is consistent.

I also have Sony Vegas, though it is on another workstaton which is not currently available. Within a few days I will test that.

[Nelson37]

The point at which the channel seperation is lost is the creation of the muxed wave. The VOB is good, the seperated AC-3 is good, the muxed Wav is bad, the AC-3 created from it has the same problem.

Back to square one. Need to specify 6 individual waves for the encoder. SoftEncode will take this, so will Vegas. It has been too long since I screwed with this, but I thought sure BeSweet would accept a six-wave input.

[Nelson37]

Re-reading what you said, I want to clarify this point.

I get the individual "front left", "center", and "front right" voice cues in each seperate, designated speaker as they should be.

When "surround left" and "surround right" voice cues are heard, they are coming from BOTH the front and surround speakers, though only on the designated side.

Ignore the LFE cue for now as that channel is a bit problematic.

[takearushfan]

The point at which the channel seperation is lost is the creation of the muxed wave. The VOB is good, the seperated AC-3 is good, the muxed Wav is bad, the AC-3 created from it has the same problem.

Back to square one. Need to specify 6 individual waves for the encoder. SoftEncode will take this, so will Vegas. It has been too long since I screwed with this, but I thought sure BeSweet would accept a six-wave input.

SoftEncode used to work properly; not anymore. Before even encoding, when I preview each channel all is fine 'til I test the Surrounds and I get the same issue we're running into.

BeSweet used to work fine for me; again, no more. It yields the same results

[takearushfan]

Re-reading what you said, I want to clarify this point.

I get the individual "front left", "center", and "front right" voice cues in each seperate, designated speaker as they should be.

When "surround left" and "surround right" voice cues are heard, they are coming from BOTH the front and surround speakers, though only on the designated side.

Ignore the LFE cue for now as that channel is a bit problematic.

Same here

EDIT - It seems that we're both experiencing similar issues, if not identical. Pro: We're both going through the same thing, allowing us to vent and tinker with certain settings. Con: We don't know what's causing the problem or how to resolve it *sigh*

[Nelson37]

IIRC, there was some question as to whether BeSweet, Aften, etc. created entirely correct 5.1 files. That's why I bought Vegas, as it was supposed to be 100% standard in AC-3 creation.

Still got the disks around here somewhere, though I should be picking up my audio workstation tomorrow.

Never actually tested Vegas to the degree of precision we are doing here, just verified the surrounds were indeed working. Sound does come out, but it may be mirrored on the fronts, as well.

About the only thing we can say is that it is NOT a playback issue, the original demo file verifies that.

When you tested BeSweet and SoftEncode earlier, and they DID work, can you say for ABSOLUTE CERTAIN that the Surround playback did NOT mirror in the front speakers, as we are seeing now?

[takearushfan]

IIRC, there was some question as to whether BeSweet, Aften, etc. created entirely correct 5.1 files. That's why I bought Vegas, as it was supposed to be 100% standard in AC-3 creation.

Still got the disks around here somewhere, though I should be picking up my audio workstation tomorrow.

Never actually tested Vegas to the degree of precision we are doing here, just verified the surrounds were indeed working. Sound does come out, but it may be mirrored on the fronts, as well.

About the only thing we can say is that it is NOT a playback issue, the original demo file verifies that.

When you tested BeSweet and SoftEncode earlier, and they DID work, can you say for ABSOLUTE CERTAIN that the Surround playback did NOT mirror in the front speakers, as we are seeing now?

Absolutely all was proper. It was a project that I was very passionate about and a very large part of it required that great attention be paid to the Surrounds, as well as what's the Fronts are doing simultaneously. So... yeah, I don't know what happened