What's new in capture cards for VHS capture?

[chowmein]

Having relied on hardware methods for many years now (DVD recorder, TBC) I now have some very important stuff on VHS from which I want to pull the BEST quality I can. To that end I want to capture lossless avi and run it through avisynth filters and encode with HC.

What is on the market today as far as VHS capture cards? I can't afford some pro/broadcast-quality device costing $1000's, but what is there in the "consumer" price range, that pulls excellent quality?

I hear about "Black Magic Intensity" and such, but haven't explored stuff properly yet. Am wanting some recommendations first!

Do I want "comb filter" (for example) in the card? Can a capture card capture both PAL & NTSC?

Also, what do I capture as? Is huffyuv still the recommended format for avi captures?

[SatStorm]

Nothing really changed the last 5 years or so.

Good VHS VCR + TBC + Canopus 100 + Neatvideo = "Perfect".

The DV capture of VHS has friends and enemies of course. But IMO remains the best combo.

[chowmein]

Thank you. I have two good VCRs (JVC & Panasonic) plus external TBC, so I am half there. I almost bought the Canopus 55 (same as 100 but without the output, just input) until I read some disparaging comments about Canopus here (by LordSmurf). I read LordSmurf's comments a lot and learn a good deal from him about hardware, but he tends to shrug away avisynth and I know as a fact that avisynth filters surpass any hardware route a 100 times. It makes me wonder about his credentials as a true "video restorer"?

I read good things about Neatvideo all the time, and will probably check it out and compare it against my avisynth filters-of choice.

Because of the disparaging comments made by various people about DV capture, I was looking at the avi capture-card route. The important VHS tapes I need to convert are both PAL and NTSC. I know the Canopus units are dual-format. Also they lock the audio and video, apparently?

[jagabo]

Consider an ATI 650 based capture device with a 3d comb filter.

Neat Video is very good but it's also very slow.

[chowmein]

Slow is OK, and a few hundred bucks investment is fine also. These are important tapes! I'll examine the ATI 650 cards, thank you!

[jagabo]

With the ATI 650 devices capture with VirtualDub and a lossless codec like HuffYUV or Lagarigth (the latter if your computer is fast enough). Don't bother with ATI's catalyst media software. One problem I know of is that it's not possible to completely disable the driver's automatic gain. That probably won't be a problem with most real world video though.

[SatStorm]

I don't use avisynth myself, I'm more of a virtualdub / avidemux person.
IMO, you can do exactly the same things with Virtualdub and avisynth - regarding VHS and other analogue sources. It's more a matter of taste than anything else.

There is indeed something with the NTSC DV capture, but since I'm on the PAL land, I don't have to deal with it. Some may say that some issues may occur with PAL too, but there is also another thing to consider when you capture VHS: All those elements count if you raw capture / convert to DVD (or whatever). Since you gonna filter your source, there is no point on all this.

Capture Cards have some benefits: For example, you can't capture PAL60 or NTSC50 with DV, only old, forgotten, BT8xxx based cards. Also you can use your own codecs, etc.
Devices like Canopus capture direct to DV and that's it. Easy, plain and simply. I like that.

Personally, I was never sattisfied with the ATI solutions, because of the drivers. LordSmurf - and others - manage to find workarounds to all the problems, because the good hardware is there.
But I prefer it easy because I'm stupid. Hook VCR to TBC to Canopus and hit capture. That's it, I like that.

[chowmein]

Satstorm, I agree Avidemux is a great app! It's built-in denoiser filters are pretty cool, and I do use this from time to time! Maybe you're right (that it's a matter of taste), but I tend to think avisynth can pull the best quality out of VHS. I was using MVDenoise (part of MVTools) with fantastic results, but have found that MCTemporalDenoise (which incorporates MVTools, as well as sharpening (LSFmod) and deblocking) is even better, if properly tweaked - detail is maintained excellently but ALL grain/noise is removed!

It's the best VHS solution I have encountered. I want to see how it compares to NeatVideo.

Avisynth scripting is nothing to be scared of, it's not "programming", it's dead-easy and produces superb results.

I'm veering back towards the Canopus 55 unit (don't need the 110). The audio/video sync issues frighten me about capture cards! I hear the Canopus devices don't suffer from this issue?

Thanks for your responses!

[jagabo]

I was using MVDenoise (part of MVTools) with fantastic results, but have found that MCTemporalDenoise (which incorporates MVTools, as well as sharpening (LSFmod) and deblocking) is even better, if properly tweaked - detail is maintained excellently but ALL grain/noise is removed!

It's the best VHS solution I have encountered. I want to see how it compares to NeatVideo.

They're worse than VHS but try the sample videos here: http://www.neatvideo.com/examples.html

[lordsmurf]

What's new for VHS capture? Nothing, really.
It's mostly just gone downhill since 2005, with various hardware and software disappearing.

The best gear is still the same gear from 5 years ago .... just that you buy it used now.

[monks19]

any capture card recomendation ? i used to capture with this before, but i gave up because the image was always fuzzy and there was always some bars through the image on the left corner. so... any recommandation for another card that works with a good image and sound quality will be welcome...

thanks to answer

[jagabo]

For composite analog capture the ATI 650/750 cards are popular. They have good horizontal resolution and the 3D comb filter cuts down on the chroma/luma crosstalk. See the samples in this post:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/313735-Capture-card-for-Laserdisc-and-VHS-Good-card...=1#post1940519

But I would avoid installing the ATI media center software. Just install the drivers and capture with VirtualDub. I've verified the 650 USB2 works with Windows XP (32 bit) and 7 (64 bit).

[monks19]

anything that can do both analog/digital & HD ?

[usually_quiet]

anything that can do both analog/digital & HD ?

The Hauppauge HD PVR can capture SD and HD using analog connections. The AVerTV HD DVR and the Black Magic Intensity pro and Black Magic Intensity Shuttle provide an HDMI input too, but won't record from a source with HDCP.

[lordsmurf]

and I know as a fact that avisynth filters surpass any hardware route a 100 times.

Spare me the Avisynth fanboy crap. There are many video issues that can ONLY be fixed in hardware (tracking, image stability, detail extraction, timebase correction). And then there are many issues that look better when fixed in hardware (chroma NR). Software correction is the last stop at restoring video.

[monks19]

lordsmurf, any recommandation for capture devices (pci cards, others) that can do video capture and hd captures ?

thanks to answer

[Caple]

Well, I use a Canopus ADVC110 to capture from analog sources (mostly VHS nowadays) and I'll start using a Panasonic DMR-ES15 to tune analog cable signal and send to the Canopus too. But I don't mind spending some money on a card that will give me better results.
Also, I can prepare myself to receive high definition free to air transmissions (not here on the south yet). But I don't know if the ATI 650 is capable of that. Or maybe the Hauppage HD PVR.
Does anyone know what card would substitute my Canopus and work with the brazilian standard? I would use it for capturing analog (from VHS) and free to air HD. Analog cable would still be on the Panasonic.
http://translate.google.com.br/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fpt.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSBTV...n&hl=&ie=UTF-8
Thanx!

[Caple]

I suppose I could just by a set top box when the digital signal gets here and use the HDMI output to capture the streams (without reencoding) on a Blackmagic, for example.
But then I still "need" to buy a new analog capture card to replace the Canopus.
Will keep an eye on this thread

[chowmein]

Spare me the Avisynth fanboy crap. There are many video issues that can ONLY be fixed in hardware (tracking, image stability, detail extraction, timebase correction). And then there are many issues that look better when fixed in hardware (chroma NR). Software correction is the last stop at restoring video.

I don't refute the need for a good VCR and TBC. What I was saying is that you're gonna get better results transferring to your computer and applying some post-processing with avisynth, and not just plug into your DVD recorder. You're not gonna get anywhere near the quality of avisynth with chroma/luma NR by just plugging into a DVD recorder.

Smurfs, your recent posts have shown us that you are impatient and frustrated with avisynth and not prepared to invest any time and effort to sit down and learn it. I'm not a fanboy, don't be chirlish.

[lordsmurf]

@chowmein
I've been using Avisynth for years. It's just backwards, and there's honestly not much it offers beyond hardware, VirtualDub and TMPGEnc Plus, for most projects. Sorry, but your assertion that software-based chroma NR surpasses hardware NR is wholly inaccurate. And you don't need software processing on all videos. Sometimes you'll do more long-run harm than good.

@monks19
I'm really quite satisfied with the ATI 600 cards: http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2F...reative=390957
Ignore the stupid pictures. It has a s-video/composite input bundle, too -- not pictured.
Ignore the stupid $199 seller. The other two are in the $60-70 range.
For more costs, look at the Blackmagic cards: http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2F...reative=390957
Related conversations at http://www.digitalFAQ.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/capture-record-transfer-7.html
That's what I'd do.

[chowmein]

@chowmein
I've been using Avisynth for years. It's just backwards, and there's honestly not much it offers beyond hardware, VirtualDub and TMPGEnc Plus, for most projects. Sorry, but your assertion that software-based chroma NR surpasses hardware NR is wholly inaccurate. And you don't need software processing on all videos. Sometimes you'll do more long-run harm than good.

You're in major denial. In my first post I said I've been doing the hardware thing for years. I have good gear - a Panasonic MV-HS950 as well as a JVC HR-S6970, I have a CTB-100, an ACE, as well as an Electronic Design TBC-Enhancer (stuff I've accumulated over the years), plugged into my Pioneer DVR-530HS. Quality is great! - but nowhere near the quality I can achieve with avisynth processing.

Seriously man, you're damaging your reputation as a "video restorer" with your ignorant comments. "Using avisynth for years" - what, some old "Separate Fields/Convolution3D/Weave" script? And how would you go about NTSC pulldown removal with hardware?

Just stick to your JVC gear with the Noise Reduction button pressed in, I'm sure you'll do fine.

[chowmein]

I'm gonna apologise to Lord Smurf!

I have since bought an ADVC-55, and it captures to DV flawlessly. But the capture quality is weird, I have to make a lot of proc amp adjustments to compensate for a dark & washed-out image. I'm gonna buy a power adaptor for it & see if it makes a difference.

PLUS... the sheer hassle of AVISYNTH, wasting so much time tweaking-tweaking-tweaking...sheesh... I spent literally HOURS UPON HOURS on this particular old VHS tape of mine. And then I plugged it all into my DVD recorder and just hit record (well, I tweaked the Pioneer's adjustments too).

Seriously, the quality is great and maybe I could've got a BIT better processing the DV but it wasn't worth it for me. (ALTHOUGH, I am still getting a power adaptor for the ADVC-55 to see if that helps some really important couple of tapes of have).

Anyway, to cut a long story short, SORRY LORD SMURFS! I dissed you but you were actually talking pretty straight. I think the hardware route is pretty damn decent. Avisynth may pull a bit better quality (re: denoise/degrain etc), but it's a lot more labour-intensive. Investing in some cool hardware (which I have) is a cool idea. TBC, proc amp etc..