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  1. Member
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    To improve the image and sync of old VHS tapes, I understand that time base correction (TBC) and other filters and noise reduction will help the video look better prior to capture. I have seen references to putting a TBC and other devices between the VCR and the video capture card, but it would seem to me that that would not work as well as having the TBC and other circuits in the VCR itself. Is this correct, or am I missing something?
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  2. Banned
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    Your chances of finding a quality VCR with built-in TBC are really slim. They haven't been made for years, and even a workable one would have no spare parts support. Those that were made by JVC, Panasonic and Toshiba were priced at $500 and up, way back then. Their built-in TBC's tended to be line-level rather than full-frame circuits (if your tapes are in bad shape, you'd need both types). In any case, their TBC's weren't perfect; they solved a few playback problems, but not all.

    You can still buy outboard TBC's (try B&H at www.bhphotovideo.com and their pro video department, or J&R's site. The cheapest good ones I'm familiar with cost around $200-plus. These are full-frame TBC's; they'll correct overall playback speed and audio sync issues and some others, but unlike line-level TBC's they won't correct a few things such as crooked verticals.

    Most of the DVD recorders made until about 4 years ago have built-in TBC's that you could use as a pass-thru device -- that is, you feed the tape into the recorder's input, but instead of recording you just feed the video straight thru their outputs into whatever you're recording to. If you're recording tape to a DVD recorder itself, I'd advise against it. Once you get tape noise and artifacts embedded into MPG, you'll never get rid of it. Better to record to a PC in AVI or huffyuv/AVI format, clean up the tape from there, and use software to convert from AVI to DVD. These DVD recorders that could be used as pass-thru TBC's were from Panasonic (try the ES10, ES20, or ES15, using Line-1 input only), and the Toshiba recorders in the RD series. For years I've been using a Toshiba RD-XS34 as a pass-thru TBC and it works beautifully. Watch out, though, that model was $500 retail when new and is now prized goods selling used for $800 on Amazon.

    I've no idea which models of present-day DVD recorders (if you can find one) would be of any quality. For the past few years video gear has gone so far down in quality that only diehards have the patience to hunt down and pay for a good used one from 7 to 5 years ago. The only market for quality DVD recorders is in Europe and the UK, but they're not NTSC machines.

    It's possible you could fine a current combo DVD recorder/VCR and just play the tape thru it, and hope it has a TBC in there that works on playback. Unfortunately the VCR's in those products are worthless for archiving.

    To see what you're in for, start here: http://www.digitalfaq.com/
    Last edited by sanlyn; 20th Mar 2014 at 17:13.
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    Thanks for your reply. To clarify, I have some (quite a few, actually) 20+ year old VHS tapes that I shot that have been kept in the (heated and cooled) basement, but would like to digitize them for posterity. As such, I am looking for something to do a very good job of conversion, but not professional level. Evidently the video capture world is apparently now split between sub-$50 USB and over $500 solutions (and I am shooting for something in the middle).

    My line of thinking is to obtain a JVC SR V101US for playback via the Svideo port (evidently a somewhat unique feature on consumer VCRs) into a Canopus ADVC-55 or equivalent, in the form of AVI. Beyond that is a piece of cake, in that I have a 600G striped raid drive (separate from the OS drive) to capture to, and Sony Vegas and Premiere Pro/After Effects to take it from there. An alternate option to the JVC VCR would be a TBC-1000 between my current VCR and the capture device, but it still seems to me that the $$$ would be better spent on the VCR than a post processing TBC.

    It makes sense that VCRs are going the way of corded phones, floppy drives and slide rules, so I guess I'd better hurry with the conversion project. I had done some video capture on a previous HP PC with the card that came with it a few years ago, and was not happy with dropped frames, and the general look of the video once it was burned to DVD, so I am willing to upgrade my hardware to help minimize problems during the capture process, and minimize the post processing effort once it is on the hard drive.

    Thanks again for your input.
    Last edited by lewist57; 23rd Jun 2010 at 14:59.
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  4. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    You should follow some of the workflow conversations here: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/project-planning-workflows-34.html
    Several people are asking the same things, seeking the same things. Their questions have been answered or are being answered, getting them on the right track for their projects. See what's been written there, I think it will help you.

    I'd skip Canopus boxes. That's not an optimum device for high quality conversions. No DV box is.

    You don't need to rush. In fact, DO NOT RUSH if you want quality work. Your tapes are not dying or some such non-sense. You have time to do it steadily and correctly.

    There may not be anything sold new and shiny in stores like Best Buy, but there are plenty of ways to build a great capture system, and using excellent/functional used equipment from 2002-2006 (back when VHS capturing hardware was good). Your budget of "middle of 50-500" is fine.
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    Thanks again for your input, particularly the reference on www.digitalfaq.com. Their recommendations appear to be in line with what I am thinking, although I believe a PCI card would serve better than an exterior box like a Canopus 55 or 110. It would appear to me that the Viewcast Osprey line of cards would do the trick, although they are not as heavily commented on in this web site as the other brands. I am thoroughly impressed with their documentation, which at least gives the appearance of being heads and shoulders above a lot of the other devices. I even got a call from one of their application engineers when I had asked a question on their web page, a very rare occurance in the 21st century for either hardware or software vendors.
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  6. Member 2Bdecided's Avatar
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    What do you want to do with them when they're captured to your PC?

    Archive the raw captures to a HDD and then forget about them until you're dead?
    Digitally enhance them? Remove noise? Improve colours? Fix shaky camera work?
    Edit them? e.g. in Sony Vegas?
    Burn them onto DVD?

    All of the above? None of the above?

    You need to think some of this through before starting.


    I think lordsmurf is very clever and experienced, but I usually take almost the opposite approach to everything he suggests. e.g. a half decent deck that plays your tapes properly, an ES15 in loop through, a Canopus DV capture device, and some AVIsynth magic will give you better VHS captures than 99% of people ever see. Though my choice would be an S-VHS deck with built-in TBC, a decent PCI capture that works well with VHS signals, and some AVIsynth magic.

    Problem with that is some decks don't like some tapes. If you find your expensive S-VHS TBC purchase doesn't like your tapes, you'll have to re-think. If you don't use a capture card that lets you set the levels, but the levels on your tapes are wrong, you'll need a proc-amp to correct them. If you find your tapes are really noisy, you must capture lossless and denoise in decent (slow) software. If you find your tapes are really clean with barely any TBC problems, you could get away with a half-decent VCR and a bog standard capture card.

    What I'm saying is that you can plan the capture system, but then need to change your approach part way through. Budget for that. Also note that people with diametrically opposed views on how to do thing can both get very good looking captures!

    Cheers,
    David.

    P.S. I think digitalfaq espouses one way of doing things, and I don't really agree with it. Some statements there are just plain wrong, e.g. "DV is a multi-compressed format, not much different than DVDs (MPEG-2) when you get right down to it." - come on, as if inter-frame compression is the same as intra-frame compression - or 25Mbps is the same as 9Mbps.
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    Actually, I have put quite a bit of thought into the overall process. After capture, the video files will be processed/edited with Sony Vegas under Windows x64, and burned to DVDs, and provided to relatives and for myself. These are strictly "home movies", but did want to achieve results better than $100 VCR -> $50 USB plug-in route. If the basic original tape and/or view looks bad, then I probably will not convert it. I would just like for the final product to look and sound as clear as reasonably possible, but do not plan to spend hours and hours (and dollars and dollars) trying to achieve the perfect transfer. After all, the original tapes were shot on consumer grade camcorders circa early 1980's, complete with lead acid batteries, so there is just so much one can do when starting with that.

    Right now (June 2010), used JVC decks with TBC/DNR can be had for $50 (or less). Used DataVideo TBC-100 are going for a little over $100. And a decent (used) Osprey capture card is running $100 or less (all of this on ebay). I guess I did not make it clear that once my tapes are sucessfully captured, I will have little or no need for the equipment, and it probably will go back up on ebay. I agree with 2Bdecided that the JVC VCR -> Osprey card is a reasonble route.
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  8. Originally Posted by lewist57 View Post
    Right now (June 2010), used JVC decks with TBC/DNR can be had for $50 (or less). Used DataVideo TBC-100 are going for a little over $100. And a decent (used) Osprey capture card is running $100 or less (all of this on ebay).
    I think you'll find all those items will close at much higher prices than you see now.
    Last edited by jagabo; 24th Jun 2010 at 10:18.
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  9. Member 2Bdecided's Avatar
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    If you're going VHS > Vegas > DVD, I can't imagine you'll lose anything going via DV-AVI, so don't discount that route. IMO!

    I'm sure your RAID set-up is suitable for capturing and editing SD lossless (I don't have RAID, so editing lossless isn't responsive for me - in fact with complex edits it can get quite painful).

    Check the capacity. 600GB is approximately 25 hours lossless VHS (depending greatly on how much noise there is!), or 46 hours DV (constant bitrate) - plus you'll need some space to render the MPEG-2 video and author the DVDs themselves.

    Cheers,
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    Methinks you might like the AVT-8710 TBC (new $210) as well as the Data Video or better. I think the Data Video softens things a bit (my opinion). The AVT is stiff competition for pricier units and has the advantge of being the best composite-to-sVideo converter I've seen for processing VHS. Just a suggestion.
    (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/276891-REG/AV_Toolbox_AVT_8710_AVT_8710_Multi_St...Time_Base.html).

    Good luck with the JVC. Those made before 2000 are far superior and more rugged than later models. One of those in at least very-good condition with good heads will run a lot more than $50. At that price point I'd be careful, with any used VCR. JVC no longer supports repairs or parts for their older VCR's. In 2003-04 I found 5 good VCR's in decent shape from JVC, Panasonic, and SONY, all made in the 1990's. I spent nearly $1000 getting them rebuilt. Today, the spare parts situation would make those rebuilds impossible.

    Your move.
    Last edited by sanlyn; 20th Mar 2014 at 17:13.
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  11. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by 2Bdecided View Post
    but I usually take almost the opposite approach to everything he suggests. e.g. a half decent deck that plays your tapes properly, an ES15 in loop through, a Canopus DV capture device, and some AVIsynth magic will give you better VHS captures than 99% of people ever see.
    I don't actually disagree with either of those methods. Both would get better-than-average results. But I would suggest there are still higher-end methods to be explored. For example, skipping DV format compression, opting instead for lossless. (Or just going directly to MPEG-2, if quality needs are not super-archival.)

    Also, a lot of things people try to do in Avisynth should also be done in the analog domain anyway. Leave digital processing for things analog processing either cannot do or does not do well/completely. VirtualDub can do quite a bit, with the benefit of an easy GUI interface. After hardware processing and VirtualDub, there's often not much left for Avisynth.

    Originally Posted by 2Bdecided View Post
    Though my choice would be an S-VHS deck with built-in TBC, a decent PCI capture that works well with VHS signals, and some AVIsynth magic.
    Yes.

    - come on, as if inter-frame compression is the same as intra-frame compression - or 25Mbps is the same as 9Mbps.
    But compared to uncompressed or lossless, DV may as well be MPEG-2. DV has a color space compression that is not necessarily conducive to high quality VHS conversions, and it's intraframe compression isn't much different than MPEG-2. And an I-frame only MPEG-2 is at least as good as DV, if you want to avoid interframe compression.

    DV was popular as "high quality" among many enthusiasts early on (Pentium III era) -- mostly because of the low overhead offloaded to hardware. But for some reason it was confused with "the best" by many consumers, and it's having a hard time shaking this wrong-headed dogma. If you want a DV camera to shoot videos -- great! If you want a DV cam/box to convert VHS tapes --- eh, not so great.

    I've never understood why somebody would buy a $200+ Canopus DV box when a lower-cost card worked just as well. For $200, you could own a multi-format card (ATI All In Wonder, Hauppauge) and do MPEG-2, plus lossless, and sometimes even DV via software codec compression. The latter card is my suggestion. Even a good DV cam can process DV conversions, and it doubles as a camera for the same $200-300 range (by current prices).

    When it comes to improving the quality of the VHS, DV compression works against you, and there's zero benefits. At least with some MPEG encoders (LSI chipsets, for example), there were positive benefits from potential quality trade-offs. Chroma noise reduction, for example.

    Ah well, to each his own -- even if it doesn't make any logical sense.

    Few more things.....

    I can edit lossless without any slowdowns on a Pentium 4 1.8Ghz with a paid of IDE 7200rpm drives. Bottleneck on lossless files is the hard drive, but any basic setup works fine. Only a single-drive system would be likely to be uncomfortable.

    I would also suggest the AVT-8710: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/276891-REG/AV_Toolbox_AVT_8710_AVT_8710_Multi_St...3167/KBID/4166 (B&H = best price)
    And be sure you understand what a TBC does!
    Last edited by lordsmurf; 24th Jun 2010 at 15:28.
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  12. Member 2Bdecided's Avatar
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    Well, I don't disagree either!

    Though I doubt most people are using I-frame only when using MPEG-2.

    I'm impressed your machine is happy to edit lossless. I can play a single lossless SD stream on my P4 2.8GHz (I think it's about on the limit of what it can cope with), but no more than that; cross fades, wipes, picture-in-picture etc - forget it! HuffYUV vs LAGS makes a difference - I want LAGS for YV12 support, but HuffYUV for speed (I'm aware there are versions of HuffYUV with YV12, but it's not there by default).

    I know some of the AVIsynth stuff can be done in the analogue domain, and clipped levels must be fixed in the analogue domain. (Time base errors too IMO, despite various attempts in software). But you can do magic in AVIsynth that's way beyond any affordable hardware, e.g. noise reduction, halo-free sharpening, off-line scene-based colour correction, stunning deinterlacing etc.

    Cheers,
    David.
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    END OF STORY: my setup is JVC SR V101US -> Osprey 210 capture card -> VirtualDub -> Vegas 8.1, running under Windows XP x64, extremely pleased with workflow and final results. Thanks for everyone's input and opinions, most informative.
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