VideoHelp Forum
+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 28 of 28
Thread
  1. Member The.King's Avatar
    Join Date: May 2010
    Location: The Dark Side of the Moon
    Search Comp PM
    Hi,

    So I've decided to scrap the .avi file ext. & Handbreak 0.9.3 and go with the newer version with only MP4 and MKV (for what I hope will be better encode results. Before I can even get the show on the road though, I can't quite figure out the 'Source' thingy.

    When selecting a source, I point Handbreak to my VTS folder where I have ripped (using DVD Decrypter) .vob from a disc for one episode of a TV program to get 2 x VTS files (VTS_01_1 & VTS_01_2) as the VTS was over 1GB so it split the files.

    (a) After pointing Handbreak to the folder destination - I get an error to say that no VTS files are present?
    (b) When I select 'Video File' as the Source (instead of DVD/Video_TS) I can clearly see both of the VTS files mentioned above, but I can only select one of them at a time?? Consequently, I'm only encoding 75% of the file I ripped??

    1) Why won't Handbreak 'see' my VTS folder (StaxRip see's it no problem) and 2) why can't I select more than one 'video file' as a source??

    Help please?
    Quote Quote  
  2. Member bat999's Avatar
    Join Date: Feb 2008
    Location: United Kingdom
    Search Comp PM
    Hi
    You are correct, Handbrake won't let you use a VIDEO_TS folder as a source.
    And it will only accept one VOB file at at time for conversion.

    I think that you're going to have to join those two files VTS_01_1 and VTS-01_2 to make one file.
    Then Handbrake will convert it.

    To do this I would use mkvmerge with the 'append' option.
    This will make one mkv file which will be accepted as source by Handbrake.
    Or maybe you know of another way to join VOB files.
    Last edited by bat999; 18th Jun 2010 at 15:22.
    Quote Quote  
  3. Member
    Join Date: Oct 2004
    Location: Freedonia
    Search Comp PM
    I do sincerely hope you get help with this. But I want to point out how things often are with Handbrake in case you don't get any help.

    I don't often encode DVD rips to other formats, but if I do, I stick with Divx because it's well supported on older hardware. I have nothing against Handbreak, but I have never used it. I work in an office filled with Mac fanboys who think that "EVERYTHING is best on a Mac". They also think that because they can rip a DVD to their hard drive using Mac The Ripper that they are some kind of hardcore video people. No kidding. I wish I was kidding, but I'm not. Yes, it is that bad. Seriously. One of the guys who used to work used to spout all kinds of bs all the time about video rips and compression and he was horribly wrong about most of it, but people here treated him like some kind of expert. ALL he could do is use Mac The Ripper and then Handbrake, and that made him an "expert".

    So these guys all, everyone of them, use Handbrake to encode their rips. There are some DVD rips that Handbrake chokes and dies on. Why? I have no idea. I have never used it. But it happens. Know what my hardcore Mac fanboy co-workers do when this happens to them? They just shrug their shoulders and give up on that rip and act like it's perfectly OK that Handbrake choked and died on that rip. That's part of the reason I don't use Handbrake. Handbrake exists because it's easy to use. That does not necessarily mean it is great or perfect (it is NOT).
    Quote Quote  
  4. Member
    Join Date: Aug 2009
    Location: Asia
    Search Comp PM
    You should be asking on the Handbrake forums, not here.

    Originally Posted by The.King View Post
    When selecting a source, I point Handbreak to my VTS folder where I have ripped (using DVD Decrypter) .vob from a disc for one episode of a TV program to get 2 x VTS files (VTS_01_1 & VTS_01_2) as the VTS was over 1GB so it split the files.
    You need to rip the whole VIDEO_TS folder, not just individual VOBs. During its scan process, Handbrake reads the entire folder and lists all titles on the disc. You then select the title you want to encode from a dropdown menu.
    Quote Quote  
  5. Member The.King's Avatar
    Join Date: May 2010
    Location: The Dark Side of the Moon
    Search Comp PM
    Hi all and thanks for the posts and info. To answer each separately.....

    Bat999 - If Handbrake won't let me use Video_TS folder as the source - then why is the option available? Just wondering as it seems kinda stupid otherwise.
    Yoiu can't join two VTS files together - but I have changed a few of the option available when ripping, so I can get 1 x output file. Still can't use the right source initially though which is just strange.

    jman98 - Cheers for the post - but aside from venting a little at the dudes in work - you haven't really made any relevant point? I see that Handbrake is very user friendly and I get that you 'never' use it. So what do you use then? I'm currently using Staxrip which is pretty good - but I can tell from the finished product that a DVDRip just hasn't got the same quality as others I've seen - hence why I'm trying other programs - like Handbreak!

    creamyhorror - Didn't know there was a Handbreak forum. Cheers for the headsup. I changed the Rip mode from 'IFO' to 'File' and ripped the whole DVD and Handbreak now see's the Video TS as source and has a dropdown menu for each ep, so thanks.

    All - Can you tell me what you currently used and have used in the past and which (to your personal taste) is your preferred choice for getting best results in DVDrips??

    Thanks again.
    Quote Quote  
  6. I use Fair Use Wizard, because it has never failed for me. I've converted dozens of DVDs to AVI/sub/idx with excellent results.
    I once tried to install Handbrake, but got some message that I didn't have enough Ram memory (I have 256MB).
    Quote Quote  
  7. Member The.King's Avatar
    Join Date: May 2010
    Location: The Dark Side of the Moon
    Search Comp PM
    Hi,

    Thanks for your post. I will try Fire Use to see what it is like.

    Don't think Handbreak is going to work out (the actual quality of the picture is better than with StaxRip, but the overall end file is 'VERY' judder-like no matter what options I use - Detelecine, Decomb, Deinterlace, Denoise, Deblock and a variety of combinations of those - you couldn't watch the end result - it hurts the eyes with so much judder.)

    Anyone else care to share their preferences based on experience??
    Quote Quote  
  8. Member johns0's Avatar
    Join Date: Jun 2002
    Location: canada
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by jimdagys View Post
    I use Fair Use Wizard, because it has never failed for me. I've converted dozens of DVDs to AVI/sub/idx with excellent results.
    I once tried to install Handbrake, but got some message that I didn't have enough Ram memory (I have 256MB).
    256mb of ram will cause most newer programs to choke,get at least 1gb of ram.
    I think,therefore i am a hamster.
    Quote Quote  
  9. Member The.King's Avatar
    Join Date: May 2010
    Location: The Dark Side of the Moon
    Search Comp PM
    Update:

    Just tried FairUse. Very straightfoward install (if you don't count the continual security warnings about trojan horses and keyloggers etc.).

    Very easy to use - as easy as StaxRip or Handbreak - but unfortunately (even by using the 'best quality settings after making loads of adjustments) the resulting encode (direct from DVD source) is worse than either of the other two. I'll grant that the Judder or ghosting always found with StaxRip is not evident with Fair Use, but the picture quality or clarity is lower.

    Out of all the guys in this forum who regularly convert files using a variety of transcoders - can anybody help out here? Any suggestions on a really good program to obtain better encodes from DVD source?
    Quote Quote  
  10. Member
    Join Date: Mar 2009
    Location: United States
    Search Comp PM
    The.King

    In my opinionT your getting some bad advice here. There are a couple of possibilities here. 1) It may be a bad rip or 2) its a series DVD. In my experience HandBrake has never balked at a normal VIDEO_TS folder for a Hollywood movie.

    bat99:

    << You are correct, Handbrake won't let you use a VIDEO_TS folder as a source.
    And it will only accept one VOB file at at time for conversion. >>


    HandBrake most certainly will take VIDEO_TS folder as a source. Perhaps the original poster is trying to use a series DVD or some weird compilation disk made by a friends brother-in-law's sister. That said, HandBrake will do movie DVD's all day long without a hitch.


    jman98

    << I don't often encode DVD rips to other formats >>

    But that doesn't stop you from some horrible ranting about HandBrake.

    << I have nothing against HandBrake, but I have never used it >>

    Are you suggesting that those who do use Handbrake have something against it or was that just gibberish.

    << There are some DVD rips that Handbrake chokes and dies on. Why? I have no idea. >>

    HandBrake may choke and die on a dvd once and a while but that hasn't been my experience. In fact I just did 109 dvd's for my father and I used HandBrake for half and Badaboom for half. No problems.

    << That's part of the reason I don't use Handbrake. >>

    I'm dying to hear the other part of the reason.

    << Handbrake exists because it's easy to use. That does not necessarily mean it is great or perfect (it is NOT). >>

    How would you know? YOU'VE NEVER USED IT. REMEMBER!

    HandBrake exists because its good at what it does. And the price is right.
    Quote Quote  
  11. Member
    Join Date: Sep 2007
    Location: Canada
    Search Comp PM
    I have ripped (using DVD Decrypter)

    Maybe you have a bad rip? DVD Decrypter hasn't been updated in years. If your DVD is within a few years old, there is a good chance DVD Decrypter will fail. Try DVDFab (DVD Fab HD Decrypter is the free version) , or AnyDVD

    Don't think Handbreak is going to work out (the actual quality of the picture is better than with StaxRip, but the overall end file is 'VERY' judder-like no matter what options I use - Detelecine, Decomb, Deinterlace, Denoise, Deblock and a variety of combinations of those - you couldn't watch the end result - it hurts the eyes with so much judder.)
    If you're gettting juddery results, something is wrong with the processing (like not IVTCing correctly)

    Both use the same encoder. If you use the same settings with the same x264 version and preprocessing, you will identical results
    Quote Quote  
  12. Member The.King's Avatar
    Join Date: May 2010
    Location: The Dark Side of the Moon
    Search Comp PM
    Cheers for the posts and suggestions.

    poisondeathray: Yep, you're right, I was using DVD Decrypter, but I have tried all types of extract (IFO - File - ISO) all give the same judder-like results using HandBreak? (I know it's not a bad rip, coz StaxRip has no issue with it - i.e. no judder - just not as clear a finished product.) Will defo try DVDFab and/or AnyDVD - whatever is freeware and works best. But one quick question - what the hell is IVTCing? Yep, I kinda new to this whole conversion thing - so I'm trying to wrap my head around everything without having to to sign up for a college course for a year.

    Reelman472: You're right with option 2, I am trying to rip a series (TV program) that I have bought on DVD. Actually - I have a heap of stuff (all seasons of 24, West Wing, The Shield, The Unit, Entourage, that type of stuff) all on DVD from Amazon and they're taking up so much room - I'm taking on a huge project to try and rip them all to the usual 350MB avi. files (or MKV if it is better). I could be here forever trying to find a really good transcoder (if that's what its called) but I thought I'd ask people here as evidently, you all know your stuff and have been encoding for longer than I have.

    Here's hoping someone comes up with a few suggestions.....
    Quote Quote  
  13. Member
    Join Date: Aug 2009
    Location: Asia
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by The.King View Post
    Don't think Handbreak is going to work out (the actual quality of the picture is better than with StaxRip, but the overall end file is 'VERY' judder-like no matter what options I use - Detelecine, Decomb, Deinterlace, Denoise, Deblock and a variety of combinations of those - you couldn't watch the end result - it hurts the eyes with so much judder.)
    Detelecine and Decomb should be set to "default". Leave the other options off.

    You can cut a sample and upload it for us to see the problem. Also try encoding other DVDs, to see if you get the same problem. For testing purposes, just encode a chapter instead of the whole disc (there's a dropdown box allowing you to select chapters).

    Handbrake's a good tool for what it's meant to do. For higher quality, use High Profile and Strict Anamorphic mode, and adjust the RF level to between 18-19.5. For smaller files, push RF to 20-21.
    Quote Quote  
  14. Member bat999's Avatar
    Join Date: Feb 2008
    Location: United Kingdom
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by Reelman472 View Post

    bat99:

    << You are correct, Handbrake won't let you use a VIDEO_TS folder as a source.
    And it will only accept one VOB file at at time for conversion.
    >>


    HandBrake most certainly will take VIDEO_TS folder as a source. Perhaps the original poster is trying to use a series DVD or some weird compilation disk made by a friends brother-in-law's sister. That said, HandBrake will do movie DVD's all day long without a hitch.
    That was a goof.
    There's a box that says 'Open VIDEO_TS folder'. It needs to have a tick in the box.
    A thousand apologies.
    Name:  handbrakei.png
Views: 1786
Size:  17.0 KB
    Quote Quote  
  15. Member The.King's Avatar
    Join Date: May 2010
    Location: The Dark Side of the Moon
    Search Comp PM
    Cheers for the replies and suggestions....

    creamyhorror: Care to tell me how I go about cutting a small sample and up'ing it for you to see what I mean about judder? I've already applied just 'Detelecine' and 'Decomb' at the "default" setting, leaving all other options off - but the outcome is not pretty. I've tried this from IFO, ISO and File sources. I've also tried a movie (with similar settings) and I'm still getting the judder.

    Bat999: Cheers for that - sussed it myself a while ago - all is good - but seriously.....with the level of results I'm gettign with Handbreak - I don't think I'll be using it much longer.

    For all interested - or anticipating that it may be my rig causing the judder or other issues - here's my beast:

    Alienware Case Rig - Intel i7 Core extreme 965 (12M Cache, overclocked to 5.5GHz) - Asus Pt6 Delux V2 MB - 12GB DDR3 RAM - 64-Bit Win7 Ultra - X-Fi Platinum Fatal1ty Champion - nVidia GeForce GTX 295.
    Quote Quote  
  16. Member
    Join Date: Aug 2009
    Location: Asia
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by The.King View Post
    creamyhorror: Care to tell me how I go about cutting a small sample and up'ing it for you to see what I mean about judder? I've already applied just 'Detelecine' and 'Decomb' at the "default" setting, leaving all other options off - but the outcome is not pretty.
    Try ChopperXP, or if that doesn't work, VobEdit.

    I've tried this from IFO, ISO and File sources. I've also tried a movie (with similar settings) and I'm still getting the judder.
    You've set framerate to "same as source", right? Could it be a problem with your player/decoder? You might want to upload a short encode with the problem for us to take a look (to a place like MediaFire).

    If StaxRip works for you, you can just use that and use higher-quality options for it. As poisondeathray said, both StaxRip and Handbrake use the same encoder (x264), so the quality difference shouldn't be significant even across different versions.
    Quote Quote  
  17. Member The.King's Avatar
    Join Date: May 2010
    Location: The Dark Side of the Moon
    Search Comp PM
    Well - here you go.

    http://www.mediafire.com/file/naazyxmwvmy/Sample [Good DVDrip].avi
    http://www.mediafire.com/file/2oukrqgorky/Sample [StaxRip Judder].avi

    2 x samples (of nearly the identical part of a program) uploaded to MediaFire as requested. As you can see, (1) is a the kind of DVDrip I would like to obtain (or maybe with slightly better quality by increasing the bit rates etc.) as you will see it is only 6.58 MB big. (2) Is the StaxRip encoded end product I am getting - the one with all the judder. You will also note that the file is bigger at 9.82 MB.

    The reason why the Staxrip is bigger is due to the complete file being a lot bigger (350MB) as opposed to the first file which is 232MB (for the same program, same running time.)

    I’ve tried many different resolutions 512x384, 624x464, etc (as the original resolution was FF 4:3, not WS 16:9). I have ensured that the aspect ratio was the ‘same as source’, and also the frame rate which in this case is 25fps. I’ve also tried playing it on WMP, Nero, VLC, and on stand-alone DVD player which plays .avi - get the same results with all.

    No matter the resolution used - StaxRip is still giving me judder no matter what option I use. Here’s hoping now that I have uploaded small samples - somebody can figure this out??? It’s killing my brain at the mo.
    Quote Quote  
  18. Member
    Join Date: Aug 2009
    Location: Asia
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by The.King View Post
    http://www.mediafire.com/file/naazyxmwvmy/Sample [Good DVDrip].avi
    http://www.mediafire.com/file/2oukrqgorky/Sample [StaxRip Judder].avi
    The obvious difference here is that the good encode is 23.976 fps, and the bad one is 25 fps. 23.976 implies a film source. It looks like the 25 fps encode wasn't originally from a 25 fps source, so the encoder is blending frames in order to produce a 25 fps result. Is this a PAL DVD source?

    No matter the resolution used - StaxRip is still giving me judder no matter what option I use. Hereís hoping now that I have uploaded small samples - somebody can figure this out??? Itís killing my brain at the mo.
    All will be made clear if you upload a short sample of the original source (VOB). Use ChopperXP.
    Quote Quote  
  19. Member The.King's Avatar
    Join Date: May 2010
    Location: The Dark Side of the Moon
    Search Comp PM
    Yeah - the obvious difference is that the good encode was taken from an NTSC source - the bad one from StaxRip was taken from a PAL source original DVD and I can assure you that it was PAL 25fps.

    Just to entirely cover every base - below is the link to the same short clip taken directly from the PAL DVD (.vob file). Obviously it is a little bigger as a result.

    So the question remains - if I am using a PAL DVD source and I am asking StaxRip to encode to .avi keeping the same frame rate, same aspect ratio, and opting for the higher quality settings - why am I getting such bad judder??? I should be getting aperfect rip - possibly better than the good source ntsc uploaded earlier.

    http://www.mediafire.com/file/mxyrdymnwzm/Sample [Original PAL DVD source].VOB.mpg
    Quote Quote  
  20. Member
    Join Date: Aug 2009
    Location: Asia
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by The.King View Post
    http://www.mediafire.com/file/mxyrdymnwzm/Sample [Original PAL DVD source].VOB.mpg
    That source is pretty strange. On MPlayer it seems to a mostly interlaced pattern except for several frames which appear matched. It might be an unusual pulldown pattern, or maybe a bad transfer job. I need to look at it in Avisynth/AvsP, but I won't have access to the Windows PC for a few hours.

    I don't think this source can be easily handled by any normal encoder application, but I could be wrong. Maybe one of the field/telecine/interlacing experts in this forum will weigh in.
    Quote Quote  
  21. Member The.King's Avatar
    Join Date: May 2010
    Location: The Dark Side of the Moon
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by creamyhorror View Post
    I need to look at it in Avisynth/AvsP, but I won't have access to the Windows PC for a few hours.

    I don't think this source can be easily handled by any normal encoder application, but I could be wrong. Maybe one of the field/telecine/interlacing experts in this forum will weigh in.
    creamyhorror: Cheers for looking at this, I appreciate the input and would love to hear the outcome once you've had a chance to check it with Avisynth/AvsP.

    Here's hoping one of the forum experts will weigh in with their take on the issue in the interim. I'm kinda stuck trying to encode this to an avi format. Again, I really appreciate the help.

    Cheers.
    Quote Quote  
  22. Member
    Join Date: Aug 2009
    Location: Asia
    Search Comp PM
    Just checked with a few folks. It's a kind of NTSC->PAL conversion (through "blend decimation"), and will never look close to right without specialized restoration (e.g. the Restore24() filter in Avisynth). I suggest you consider this a lost cause, just accept that it'll always look like that, and go on to converting other things.

    If you want a clean version of this show, get the NTSC DVD, which will be problem-free.
    Quote Quote  
  23. Member The.King's Avatar
    Join Date: May 2010
    Location: The Dark Side of the Moon
    Search Comp PM
    Thanks for that - but would be very interested to hear other peoples view who would have more knowledge on this subject than I. From my perspective, it was my understanding that DVD's could with be one or the other (in this case NTSC or PAL) both certainly not a mixture both - for framerate alone.

    This would also back up the fact that other DVD's I have tried to encode with StaxRip have produced similar results (i.e. say 'Black Hawk Down', 'Lost', 'LOTR', etc.) I still get the judder no matter what. Some of the movies I have tried (LOTR) are NTSC format also - bought from Amazon.ca - so it seems kinda weird that this could just be a one off strange kind of 'part NTSC-part PAL' issue with this particular disc?

    Also seems further kinda weird that Handbreak doesn't produce judder at all with this disc (even though it uses the same encoder as StaxRip)? Handbreak just produces a poorer quality finish.

    I appreciate the help genuinely, but I can help but feel given the evidence, that this is not just related to one 'weird' disc. It's like Staxrip has the quality but produces a strange kind of judder, and Handbreak produces lesser quality results but without judder. Neither is acceptable to be blunt about it - and given that excellent quality DVDrips are possible (and readily available) someone out there has to know of a program to get this right??
    Quote Quote  
  24. Member
    Join Date: Sep 2007
    Location: Canada
    Search Comp PM
    creamyhorror is correct. This is a field blended source. The people who did the NTSC=>PAL conversion chose to blend frames instead of doing a PAL speedup 24000/1001 => 25 . The PAL speedup would be slightly shorter in duration and the proper NTSC version

    You can get rid of some of the blends using a restore function like srestore(), but it's better to use a proper source

    If you're the type of person that is going to rely on some of these auto analysis tools (and they all make mistakes - all of them) , you're going to have to limit yourself to pristine sources. There are way more convoluted patterns out there than this example, and both staxrip and handbrake will make mistakes at some point. The problem with autodetection schemes is they cannot detect with any certainty as well as a human can.

    You can't compare quality with 2 different filesizes. If the staxrip bitrate was larger, it's expected to be higher quality, everything else the same

    filesize = bitrate x running time
    Quote Quote  
  25. Member The.King's Avatar
    Join Date: May 2010
    Location: The Dark Side of the Moon
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by creamyhorror View Post

    If you want a clean version of this show, get the NTSC DVD, which will be problem-free.
    Cheers for the info - seriouely you've been very helpful - seems like I'll just have to give up on this and move onto others.

    Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post

    If you're the type of person that is going to rely on some of these auto analysis tools (and they all make mistakes - all of them) , you're going to have to limit yourself to pristine sources. There are way more convoluted patterns out there than this example, and both staxrip and handbrake will make mistakes at some point. The problem with autodetection schemes is they cannot detect with any certainty as well as a human can.
    Thanks for your input here - appreciate it. I'm not necessarily looking for a simply auto analysis tool for these jobs - I was just hoping to find a program or three that combined could rip a DVD and then encode to avi and mkv (without having to earn a degree in operating them first) but for all my asking - no one really seems to be forthcoming with any information on the program(s) to use.

    If you know of any, I'd be greatful for your suggestions either here or via PM. I don't dare ask what you guys use yourself - as you seem very well up on the whole process and probably have like 20 different programs and processes to run through to obtain immaculate encodes (which I'm sure you achieve time and time again). In saying that - any help would be hugely appreciated.

    Thanks again for your help - you really make these forums what they are...
    Quote Quote  
  26. Member
    Join Date: Sep 2007
    Location: Canada
    Search Comp PM
    You kind of missed my point.

    There isn't any automated tool that does all this perfectly. The problem is there are varied types of source. A DVD can come in different formats. It might be interlaced, might be telecined, might be field blended, might be phase shifted etc.... The analysis part of the encoding requires human intervention, the rest is easy - you just throw it at an encoder, maybe tweak a few settings.

    If you're looking for some easy to use program, expect to have errors some of the time. This thread is a perfect example of that. I've seen handbrake make errors too.

    I was in your shoes a few years ago. The only way to get it right all the time, is to manually examine and write your own avisynth scripts. All the automated tools have a chance of interpreting it wrong. They may get it right 90-95% of the time, but only on clean sources like a pure film or pure video source. Once you have a hybrid or field blended source you're screwed. You only need avisynth + a pair of eyes then feed that avs script into your encoder of choice. You don't need 20 programs
    Quote Quote  
  27. Member The.King's Avatar
    Join Date: May 2010
    Location: The Dark Side of the Moon
    Search Comp PM
    Thanks again for the input.

    No, I got your point the first time - I get that no automated program is going to do a perfect job everytime. My question was just what program to use in conjunction with my keen eye and now you have advised all I need is avisynth - which I already have as part of the StaxRip package.

    All I need now are some guidelines as to what I need to open in avisynth and how I go about 'writing my own script' depending on each source and what my eyes tell me - that should be a barrel of laughs. Can you point me in the direction of where I can obtain this info?
    Quote Quote  
  28. Member
    Join Date: Sep 2007
    Location: Canada
    Search Comp PM
    The avisynth basics are not that hard, all you need is 1 or 2 lines. But trust me, avisynth is the most powerful and versatile tool in video. It's well worth your time to learn the basics. You can start here:
    http://avisynth.org/mediawiki/Main_Page
    http://avisynth.org/mediawiki/First_script
    http://avisynth.org/mediawiki/Getting_started


    A good place to start learning about interlace vs. progressive vs. telecine is here , and using DGIndex for DVD (MPEG2) sources
    http://neuron2.net/faq.html#analysis

    Before you do this, it's important to use updated copy protection removal, ie. dvd fab or anydvd
    Quote Quote  



Similar Threads