Quality problem "caused" during "deinterlacing" ?

[Hombre_86]

Hi there! I'm having some problem which i supposed hapeend during/after deinterlacing when i ripping some stuff fro me from DVD. I'm using meGUI for making script and vdub for encoding. When i "analyze source" in meGUI it says:

Source: Hybrid Film/Interlaced. Mostly interlaced
Field Order: Varying Field order

Here is DGindex info for source:



Here is how it looks like after deinterlacing,in this case TIVTC (tfm(order=-1).tdecimate(hybrid=3)



Screenshot can not introduce my problem very well,but problem is under ballons (almost every red colored area). You will see that in video!

here is sample of video - 9 sec.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=35DMWNMX

Also i tried several filters for deinterlacing,but the problems is always here...

If you have suggestion how to solve this problem,and was it caused by deinterlacing,or some other thing,please help...

Thanks in advance! Marko

[poisondeathray]

looks like xvid compression artifacts

either use a higher bitrate (lower quantizer) , or better compression (e.g. h.264)

[Hombre_86]

looks like xvid compression artifacts

either use a higher bitrate (lower quantizer) , or better compression (e.g. h.264)

I don't think so! I make this sample @ approx 1000kbps. But i tied @ 1800,and the problem is still here! Thanks for reply!

[poisondeathray]

exactly what are your arrows pointing to?

the bottom arrow is definitely a compression artifact

post a corresponding sample of the source , and the avs script used

[Hombre_86]

here is sample of video - 9 sec.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=35DMWNMX

Also i tried several filters for deinterlacing,but the problems is always here...

If you have suggestion how to solve this problem,and was it caused by deinterlacing,or some other thing,please help...

Thanks in advance! Marko

I've posted already!

Edit: I am dumb, didn't understand you! OK,i will cut off the part of VOB and paste avs script!

[poisondeathray]

need to look at original source i.e. vob or m2v

your encoded file has blends, and some dot crawl as well as compression artifacts

if it's <30MB you can upload it directly to this site

[Hombre_86]

SAMPLE-MPEG.M2V

Here is sample cutted off from original VOB (M2V) file in my attacment.

AVS script i used:

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\MeGUI\tools\dgindex\DGDecode.dll")
DGDecode_mpeg2source("H:\movie\VideoFile.d2v", info=3)
LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\MeGUI\tools\avisynth_plugin\ColorMatrix.dll")
ColorMatrix(hints=true, interlaced=true, threads=0)
LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\MeGUI\tools\avisynth_plugin\TIVTC.dll")
tfm(order=-1).tdecimate(hybrid=3)

[poisondeathray]

your video attachment isn't showing up...

[jagabo]

It's hard to say for sure from the Xvid encoding but it looks to me like your DVD was made from a composite source and has dot crawl artifacts. Also, keep in mind that MPEG 2 and Xvid use YV12 color subsampling so colors will always have half (both axis) the resolution of the luma channel. This causes colors to look blurrier than grayscale. And regardless of what you think of the bitrate, there's not enough in your xvid file. It has lots of macroblocks. There may be an interlaced vs progressive YV12 problem too. I'll need to see the source m2v before I can comment further.

[Hombre_86]

Source added!

SAMPLE-MPEG.M2V

Here is sample cutted off from original VOB (M2V) file in my attacment.

AVS script i used:

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\MeGUI\tools\dgindex\DGDecode.dll")
DGDecode_mpeg2source("H:\movie\VideoFile.d2v", info=3)
LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\MeGUI\tools\avisynth_plugin\ColorMatrix.dll")
ColorMatrix(hints=true, interlaced=true, threads=0)
LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\MeGUI\tools\avisynth_plugin\TIVTC.dll")
tfm(order=-1).tdecimate(hybrid=3)

[jagabo]

Ouch! That's a lot of chroma/luma crosstalk. Indeed your DVD was made from an analog composite source and there's lots of dot crawl artifacts. All that noise is why you need a much higher bitrate.

[Hombre_86]

OK! I think 1200 kbps will be enough. What are you suggest for deinterlace?When i play M2V file in VLC media player and choose for deinterlace (in VLC) bob,that problem is solved. So,the cause is deinterlace on first place,right?


P.S. I think you don't understand me. Look at M2V (source file) under red baloons and red colored area. It has some strange lines,like some kind of interlace...

[poisondeathray]

OK! I think 1200 kbps will be enough. What are you suggest for deinterlace?When i play M2V file in VLC media player and choose for deinterlace (in VLC) bob,that problem is solved. So,the cause is deinterlace on first place,right?


P.S. I think you don't understand me. Look at M2V (source file) under red baloons and red colored area. It has some strange lines,like some kind of interlace...

nope, as mentioned above, it's dot crawl

bob deinterlacing won't fix it, look closely in vlc bob for example, it's still very bad. You can use an avisynth filter like checkmate or tcomb

you have a messy source, it requires a bit of work to improve it, I'll post something a bit later

[Hombre_86]

I know source has a big noise.

Can you rip this source sample with your filters and configuration, and upload it?
Then i will compare it with my config...

[poisondeathray]

1) The first screenshot is the original, just TFM().TDecimate() to IVTC
2) The 2nd is treated with the script, not cropped or resized
3) The 3rd is same as (2) , but cropped and resized

These were taken before compression.

It would be a good idea to start learning the avisynth basics , because MeGUI's auto analyzer can (and often does) make mistakes. Once you are a bit familiar you can start looking into some of the filters

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\aWarpSharp_20090619\aWarpSharp.dll")
MPEG2Source("SAMPLE-MPEG.d2v")
Checkmate()
TFM().TDecimate()
DFTTest()
AwarpSharp2(depth=10)
Toon(strength=0.9)
LSFMod(defaults="slow", strength=150)
Tweak(sat=1.1,coring=false)
Crop(12,0,-4,0,true)
LanczosResize(640,480)

original IVTCed


script


script with crop & resize

[poisondeathray]

I know source has a big noise.

Can you rip this source sample with your filters and configuration, and upload it?
Then i will compare it with my config...

yes the noise "eats" up bitrate; it requires a lot more bitrate for a certain level of "quality". So most people would process it with filters to denoise it to lower your bitrate requirements. On most types of anime, most people would say it subjectively looks better to have "clean" animation

remember, all the filters are adjustable and tweakable. So you should customize the settings to your specific tastes. For example, I thinned the lines a bit, and made the picture a bit sharper (since the original was a bit blurry). Other people might want it to look a bit blurry - there is no "right" way to do it - it's personal preference

here is that script encoded with xvid ~1Mbps

[jagabo]

Interlaced MPEG 2 always that type of problem:



Again, this comes from the interlaced YV12 subsampling used in MPEG 2. The problems are further exacerbated by the Y/C crosstalk noise and MPEG overcompression. You can reduce it a bit with DgDecode's deblocking option. Or you can blur it away. Deinterlacing or IVTC will not make it go away. Actually, a blend deinterlace (because of the blurring) will make it go away but will screw up the rest of the picture.

If you want to understand what's going on read this:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_8_2/dvd-benchmark-special-report-chroma-bug-4-2001.html
And see the section entitled "4:2:0 Interlaced: Fundamentally Broken".

[Hombre_86]

Thanks people! Your rip is very good poisondeathray.

Which player you using? I spotted diferences in playin' in MV2Player then in VLC and Media Player Classic,windows media player

Btw, when i play both samples,your and mine,picture show that lines under red baloons,but only in mv2 player! So,definatelly it cause by the player,which i can not explain. Same codecs are used for all players,except VLC which one using his codecs...

[poisondeathray]

are you talking about interlaced chroma lines?

the choice of renderer makes a difference, and how it upsamples the 4:2:0 YV12 to RGB for display. e.g. look here https://www.videohelp.com/toolsimages/madvr_1196.jpg

you can change renderer in different software players.

dot crawl is another topic, that looks like "buzzing" dots when played. On a framegrab, I circled it above - it sort of looks like a "waffle" pattern

[jagabo]

Dot crawl artifacts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dot_crawl

Animated example (not a great one though):
http://www.michaeldvd.com.au/Articles/VideoArtefacts/VideoArtefactsDotCrawl.html

[poisondeathray]

In your original post, actually 3/4 of your blue arrows pointed to compression artifacts.

If you had used x264, you would get better quality even at ~1/2 the filesize of the xvid file

Here is an example using the same script using x264 at ~500kb/s , the video is attached below

Below are representative screenshots, notice the artifacts along the lines in the xvid encode. The fact is, every frame is better with the x264 encode, even though it is using ~1/2 the bitrate. If you example the beginning sequence fade in, the xvid encode is very bad, with blocky looking artifacts.

Here is a script to compare the 2, you could open the .avs in avsp or vdub, for example, and just
push the arrow key.

a=AVISource("xvid 1Mbps.avi").subtitle("xvid")
b=FFMpegSource2("x264.500kbps.mp4").subtitle("x264")
Interleave(a,b)

[Hombre_86]

are you talking about interlaced chroma lines?

the choice of renderer makes a difference, and how it upsamples the 4:2:0 YV12 to RGB for display. e.g. look here https://www.videohelp.com/toolsimages/madvr_1196.jpg

you can change renderer in different software players.

dot crawl is another topic, that looks like "buzzing" dots when played. On a framegrab, I circled it above - it sort of looks like a "waffle" pattern

Yeah,i am talking exactly about that! It shows under baloons,when i playing file with mv2player,but not if i am using mpc.
As i can see it is problem which can not be solved with some kind of filters. It caused by transmitting analog video to digital,if i understood very well according to wikipedia. So, you suggest me to use x264 for compressing... I will consider that,maybe to make OGM or MKV container... Thanks ppl.

Just need to setup x264,i never had a chance to mess with this codec...

1.Is it possible to use x264 codec in VirtualDub?
2.What configuration you used for it?

[creamyhorror]

If you want to use x264, use it in MeGUI and rely on Avisynth scripts to do whatever cutting or filtering you need (with AvsPmod to do frame previewing). It's a better way since it relies on mainstream x264.

There's a version of x264 available for VirtualDub, but it may have limitations/problems. It's called x264vfw and you can get it at

http://sourceforge.net/projects/x264vfw/files/

Install it and it should appear on your list of codecs in Vdub.

[Hombre_86]

Thanks man.I will probbably try using it on meGUI. Because i have reed that in VFW may cause some bugs.

[jagabo]

There isn't really a problem encoding x264 into an AVI container. The problem arises from decoding with VFW. VFW is based on a one-frame-in-one-frame-out model and it can't really cope with MPEG's out of order decoding. That's usually only an issue of you are going to edit the x264 AVI. The x264vfw encoder is usually not up to date so it's not quite as efficient as the latest CLI x264. I sometimes encode with VirtualDub and x264vfw to an AVI container then remux into an MKV container later.

[creamyhorror]

The x264vfw encoder is usually not up to date so it's not quite as efficient as the latest CLI x264.

The x264vfw encoder included in VirtualDub is massively out of date (from 2006); I wouldn't call it merely "not quite as efficient". But there's a modern up-to-date build being maintained at Sourceforge, which I linked earlier. It doesn't work for all applications, but does work with Vdub.

[poisondeathray]

If anyone is going to use x264vfw, I would use the builds from here:

http://komisar.gin.by/

They are up to date, e.g. r1602 as of today, ie. is the same as the CLI up to date release

This version can encode to .mp4/.mkv/RAW as well , even in vdub , which saves the step of muxing later

It still has limitations compared to CLI version, and those are listed in the Doom9 x264vfw thread