Black Magic Intensity + Sony Vegas Pro - newbie help

[Coroni]

Hey, im sorta new to this video thing, so hai
So ive got some questions, im getting a BMI or Hauppauge, im leaning towards the BMI but my comp is only 3GB + im on a laptop and idk if thats enough. Im also getting Sony Vegas Pro- is that compatible with both of them? and are there any other video editing software that i might acquire that would be useful for me?

- this is for an xbox360

--specs
64 bit win7
3GB
the rest is in my profile.

big thnx to everyone in advance!
-cor

[jagabo]

3GB memory is fine. But how are you going to put a BMI in a laptop? Unless you're talking about the new Intensity Shuttle (not available yet):

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/

Laptops are usually way underpowered for capturing and editing high definition video. You'll be able to capture from the HD PVR but editing it will be painful.

[Coroni]

ok so it was my understanding that the BMI is the HD PVR correct? and id be using it to record games from my xbox 360 and so does it matter how good the PVR is because id only be capturing it from my xbox onto my laptop

and editing with sony vegas pro 9 (is that compatible) ??

i also understand (after lots of research) that RAID would probably be necesary to make up for the massive amount of data that the video footage would take up from a BMI...

[Coroni]

3GB memory is fine. But how are you going to put a BMI in a laptop? Unless you're talking about the new Intensity Shuttle (not available yet):

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/

Laptops are usually way underpowered for capturing and editing high definition video. You'll be able to capture from the HD PVR but editing it will be painful.

my laptop is very fast and fairly new, although im not sure if that makes a difference, if you dont mind could you look at my profile to examine the specs ? or what type of specs should a computer running this have?

[jagabo]

ok so it was my understanding that the BMI is the HD PVR correct?

No, BMI is the Blackmagic Intensity (HDMI only) or BMI Pro (composite, s-video, component, HDMI). These require a fairly powerful computer because they caputure uncompressed YUY2 and use software compression. The Hauppauge HD PVR (model 1212) uses a hardware h.264 encoder. If you capture without displaying the video it takes hardly any CPU power (all the CPU is doing in this case is taking bits from the USB port and putting them in a file).

i also understand (after lots of research) that RAID would probably be necesary to make up for the massive amount of data that the video footage would take up from a BMI...

Only when capturing uncompressed HD. Most people will use the included MJPEG codec which gets the data rate low enough for a single drive.

[Coroni]

double post. XD

[Coroni]

wow, thanks a lot, i wish we could communicate easier than this, do you have AIM perchance?

anyways- so what i meant then was that i was getting the black magic intensity pro (the HD PVR) because they are the same price as the haup and thats better video quality, i would NOT be displaying on my laptop as i was capturing it, so would that make it manageable? and if i had to encode the uncompressed data (MJPEG) to make it manageable for a single 3Gb hard drive would i sacrifice quality?
ALSO: do you suggest using sony vegas pro? ive used it before and like it but ive never sued anything else so i dont know if i should try to buy something else instead of blowing all my money on the vegas

[edDV]

Once again. The Black Magic Intensity Pro is a PCIe card that will not work with your laptop.

The Hauppauge HD-PVR is an h.264 USB capture device that will work for capture to an i3+GMA-HD laptop but you may find h.264 difficult to edit and display. It is possible to use a digital intermediate codec to speed editing and display.

If I were you, I'd obtain some HD-PVR h.264 test samples and try them in Vegas on that laptop. See if your laptop can keep up.

[jagabo]

You can get some Hauppauge HD PVR samples here:

http://blog.arogan.com/2008/06/hauppauge-hd-pvr-model-1212.html

I think you'll find them very painful to edit with Vegas on a laptop.

[Coroni]

okay, uhm i have vegas now and i like it
the samples were laggy a bit but after i had played the video about twice it was fine.

im really sorry for asking a question repeatedly but how will a intensity pro NOT work, ive done some research and ive heard a lot of people use it to record on their xbox. or is this a problem with my laptop and not my xbox or the BMI?

-what is a digital intermediate codec ? and would i have to buy that too?

[edDV]

okay, uhm i have vegas now and i like it
the samples were laggy a bit but after i had played the video about twice it was fine.

im really sorry for asking a question repeatedly but how will a intensity pro NOT work, ive done some research and ive heard a lot of people use it to record on their xbox. or is this a problem with my laptop and not my xbox or the BMI?

-what is a digital intermediate codec ? and would i have to buy that too?

OK you show me where this will plug into your laptop? Even if you could, your laptop is underpowered for the task.

[edDV]

Cineform Neoscene is a digital intermediate codec. It is intended HDV or AVCHD camcorders but could be used to convert a HD-PVR h.264 file to a format more Vegas friendly.


http://www.cineform.com/neoscene/features.php

[jagabo]

The Blackmagic Intensity Pro is a PCIe card. Laptops do not have PCIe slots in which to put it. Only desktop computers have PCIe slots.

[Coroni]

OOOOH! ok so the BMI requires desktop... which requires it to be NEXT TO an xbox/TV.... it all becomes clear now thank you so much

Ok so i guess im buying a hauppauge instead because as fair as i know to get 720p thats the best bang for your buck.

Intermediate Codecs - as far as i can tell these are programs which change file formats? what kind of format would best to use with Vegas? Do i Have to buy one or can i download a intermediate Codec? if so how much do they cost and how do i use them?


Thanks JAgabo and Ed and anyone else who may help, i am slowly learning the ropes - ty 4 helping a noob

[Coroni]

i just looked further into the neoscene intermediate codec and realized i have to buy it? are there ones that i can download for free? are they worth 120$? if i have them which one would be the most effective one? i dont want to waste my money or buy something that i will soon need to upgrade later also.

and wouldn't the neoscene change the fps to 24fps progressive and isnt that downgrading from what i had before?

[edDV]

i just looked further into the neoscene intermediate codec and realized i have to buy it? are there ones that i can download for free? are they worth 120$? if i have them which one would be the most effective one? i dont want to waste my money or buy something that i will soon need to upgrade later also.

and wouldn't the neoscene change the fps to 24fps progressive and isnt that downgrading from what i had before?

First the problem. h.264 and other highly compressed high def formats require Vegas to decode for 1x playback or for scanning or jogging frames on the timeline. The load falls to the CPU and most CPUs aren't fast enough to smoothly select edit points. This is very frustrating for people used to fast response accessing frames on the timeline.

Answer 1: Buy a faster CPU but even the fastest CPU today will still have lag with 1920x1080 h.264 but would be adequate with 1280x720.

Your laptop can barely play a 1280x720 h.264 file 1x speed let alone allow 3x or 5x scanning on the timeline. So the Answer 1 is to buy a faster computer (e.g. Core2 Quad core or i5/i7) with a fast display card (PurevideoHD or AVIVO-HD capable)

Answer 2: Convert the h.264 video to a digital intermediate format. This will convert 15 GOP h.264 MPeg to unique frames which can be scanned without decode delays on the Vegas timeline. The frames still have 2D compression to control bit rate for a single hard drive. Otherwise, a RAID (multiple disk array) would be required.

Bottom line, Vegas will become more responsive and the digital intermediate file can be easily played even at fast speed. The downside is the file sizes will grow to about 60 GB/hr for the intermediate. After editing you encode to the final format you desire.

Vegas Pro 8 or 9 include an older "Video for Windows" version of the Cineform codec. The newer $129 Cineform Neoscene product is much more user friendly. Some people use the "Video for Windows" Huffyuv codec or MJPeg as an intermediate codec. Cineform is faster and has features that allow for higher quality image processing.

No you don't need to convert frame rate.

[jagabo]

The Hauppauge HD PVR creates ~30 to ~60 frame GOPs. Much worse for editing than 15 frame GOPs.

[Coroni]

what are GOPS?
thnx for the info Ed-

would my laptop work with RAID? does that cost and would that eliminate the memory problem?

if i were to get a desktop with a haupp would i need the intermediate?
if i was going to get a desktop would it be worth it to get thee BMi instead?
what kind of specs specifically would be necesary for the haup and the BMI comparatively?

-tysm

[jagabo]

what are GOPS?

GOP stands for Group Of Pictures. High compression codecs don't encode each frame its entirety. You typically have one frame encoded in its entirety (called in I frame) then several frames after that only encode changes from frame to frame. A GOP is distance between I frames. If you are sitting there in your editor looking at an I frame, then scroll back one frame, the editor has to go back to the previous I frame and decode all the frames from there to the requested frame. With a GOP size of 15 it may have to decode 15 frames, with a GOP size of 300 frames (common in Xvid encoding) it may have to decode all 300 frames just to show you the one you requested. This can take several seconds. So scrolling backwards in a video frame by frame looking for the frame you want can take forever. Random seeking can be equally painful.

would my laptop work with RAID?

No.

if i were to get a desktop with a haupp would i need the intermediate?

It depends on how much of a glutton for punishment you are and what type of editing you plan to do.

if i was going to get a desktop would it be worth it to get thee BMI instead?

Depends on what you want to do.

what kind of specs specifically would be necesary for the haup and the BMI comparatively?

Again, it depends on what you want to do.

[Coroni]

if i were to get a desktop with a haupp would i need the intermediate?

It depends on how much of a glutton for punishment you are and what type of editing you plan to do.

if i was going to get a desktop would it be worth it to get thee BMI instead?

Depends on what you want to do.

what kind of specs specifically would be necesary for the haup and the BMI comparatively?

Again, it depends on what you want to do.


thnx - i would be using vegas to edit gameplay recorded from an xbox either in 720(haup) or 1080(BMI)

im not sure what you mean by what type of editing but it would be pretty balls deep so to speak.

[edDV]

If you want to capture, edit and encode high def video, you need to gain the necessary knowledge and invest in the right equipment.

Traditionally, HD editing required a high end desktop, a RAID (with several drives) and high end software. Editing compressed files had to wait for CPU speeds to advance. The first HD editing codecs were MJPeg or MPeg2 based (e.g. IMX, HDV and XDCAM). MPeg2 allowed enough compression to operate on typical computer drives (no RAID) but CPU performance was still lacking until recently. Digital intermediate codecs solved the problem.

Then MPeg4 AVC based codecs (e.g. h.264, VC-1, divx/xvid etc.) were developed to compress more for storage on flash media or for internet streaming. These files require more CPU power for real time decode. Most non-editing applications require hardware assist even to play these 1x as you witnessed on your i3 laptop.

[edDV]

thnx - i would be using vgas to edit gameplay recorded from an xbox either in 720(haup) or 1080(BMI)

im not sure what you mean by what type of editing but it would be pretty balls deep so to speak.

Vegas can do simple cuts, apply transitions, add compositing layers or filter in many ways. The more of these tasks you do the quicker the CPU will bog down, even an i7. Instead of using the CPU for image processing, it gets bogged down decoding h.264. The digital intermediate conversion frees the CPU of most decoding tasks.

As I said above, you should consider a desktop with Core2Quad, i5 or i7 with the appropriate display card for the formats you will use. Then you could use the BM Intensity with included MJPEG codec or Cineform codec. Either would work with Vegas.

BM says minimum recommended CPU is a Core2 Duo 2.5 GHz.
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/support/detail.asp?techID=195


If you trade up your laptop to a higher end model, you could use the Hauppauge HD-PVR to do simple edits in Vegas or other software.

If you want to try your i3, there is a free Cineform Neoscene demo.

[Coroni]

So a BMI includes MJPEG and cineform codecs? ...so that means i would not need a intermediate.

i think im going to try the cineform neoscene demo for now and see how that works with running clips in vegas? this would change my original video into the neoscene codecs correct?

for the desktop: what type of video card would i need for this? would i need to buy an individual graphics processor.

[Coroni]

what other software do you suggest for this type of work? are there other programs i could use in addition to Vegas?

[edDV]

So a BMI includes MJPEG and cineform codecs? ...so that means i would not need a intermediate.

i think im going to try the cineform neoscene demo for now and see how that works with running clips in vegas? this would change my original video into the neoscene codecs correct?

for the desktop: what type of video card would i need for this? would i need to buy an individual graphics processor.

BMI includes the MJPEG codec. It would be fine. You would need to buy the Cineform codec.

I already told you which video cards to buy.

Let's stop and reevaluate why you are using Vegas. What are you doing with your editing? What end formats do you seek? You are moving into the top end of pro editing here and will need to up your skills considerably. I can point you but not go step by step. I don't own a BMI or HD-PVR and I'm not editing game captures. The cost of high def capture and display equipment has dropped but the skills needed to support an NLE are getting more complex not easier when dealing with these compressed formats.

As an alternative you can cut h.264 on I frames with worst case 10 second accuracy (for 300 GOP h.264). Would that be good enough?

Another alternative is to wait for user evaluation of the just announced BM Intensity Shuttle. That requires USB 3. This probably isn't possible with your current i3 laptop. The new computer would need USB 3, a fast CPU and minimum two SATA drives. One SATA drive could be external with eSATA interface.

[Coroni]

OK so for the future i think im going to go with the desktop (for the future) with the BMI so that i dont need an intermediate

funnily enough, i already know how to use Vegas fairly well when it comes to the actual usage of the program, im having problems with laggy video in MPEG format that i got from the internet. For now im going to take your advice and try out the neoscene on my i3 and see what i get, maybe if it gets better ill scrap the desktop idea for the Haup

last question for now: out of the cineform intermediate codecs is the neoscene the best one for me to use?

i just reread this entire thread and im glad i did cause i answered some things that were still a bit foggy, im sorry its a lot of information you guys are throwing at me, really appreciate it, thnx 4 helping a total noob

[Coroni]

Let's stop and reevaluate why you are using Vegas. What are you doing with your editing? What end formats do you seek?

As an alternative you can cut h.264 on I frames with worst case 10 second accuracy (for 300 GOP h.264). Would that be good enough?

Not sure what you mean here,

[edDV]

Let's stop and reevaluate why you are using Vegas. What are you doing with your editing? What end formats do you seek?

As an alternative you can cut h.264 on I frames with worst case 10 second accuracy (for 300 GOP h.264). Would that be good enough?

Not sure what you mean here,

I'm trying to understand what you want to do. This may affect what is needed.

I'm willing to do limited research but I can't duplicate and test your hardware.

[jagabo]

He's asking what kind of editing you want to do. If all you want is simple cut and paste editing (like removing commercials) you can get away with simple free tools and probably the laptop you have. If you plan on compositing several tracks, using sophisticated 3d transitions, heavy filtering, etc., you need a more sophisticated editor and a more powerful computer.

[Coroni]

" If you plan on compositing several tracks, using sophisticated 3d transitions, heavy filtering, etc., you need a more sophisticated editor and a more powerful computer."

this is what im doing

EDIT: this is why i have vegas for the transitions etc,
EDIT: my friend told me that a program called 'Afteraffects CS4'