Capturing video from a European VHS tape through RCA out

[c627627]

Using a multi system VCR to play a European Pal VHS tape: The video shows up fine when played on my Plasma TV connected through an RCA cable. But European Pal VHS tapes cannot show up clearly when connected to a video capture card, only NTSC US tapes show up clearly.


Are HDTVs decoding the PAL signal and Video capture cards can't [TV Wonder Pro + All-In-Wonder 9200]?

I tried changing the modes on the VCR but when set up correctly, picture shows up on HDTV but not on the computer.

[hech54]

Because capture cards are mostly sold as "format specific"....IE either NTSC or PAL.

[edDV]

ATI cards in particular separate models for particular market regions.

If your "multi-system" VCR can output PAL as NTSC then it may work.

[lordsmurf]

All-In-Wonder 9200 can record PAL, NTSC, and a few others.

[edDV]

The hardware tuners are standard specific. The ATI MMC software may or may not support multiple standard capture from composite. ATI documentation doesn't show support.
http://ati.amd.com/products/radeon9200/aiw9200/specs.html

Uncompressed capture using third party capture programs may offer more format choice.

[c627627]

It turns out it's the software, not the cards.

I tested DScaler 4.1.15 http://www.dscaler.com/downloads.htm and on the Dscaler menu, if you go to CX Card > Video Format > and select Pal-N, the picture shows up correctly.


I tested ATi Multimedia Center 9.02 and 9.16 on TV Wonder Pro using the Setup > Video TAB > Broadcast Standard > Pal options. The picture can get stable then but no color: only grainy black & white.

I then tested ATi Multimedia Center 9.03 and 8.8 on All-in-Wonder 9200 and the picture can get color but is choppy and unstable.



The thing is ATi MMC captures best video. I don't think DScaler can be set to capture 720x480. Any ideas on other software options? Too bad ATi MMC can't do it. Are there perhaps drivers for ATi cards in Europe? Maybe installing European versions of ATi MMC would do it if there is such a thing...

[edDV]

Your "multi-standard" VCR is suspect. PAL-N is the Argentina standard that places PAL subcarrier at NTSC like ~3.58 MHz (normally 4.43 MHz). What is this VCR?

ATI took great measures to prevent use of USA cards in Europe or visa versa. That is probably a false trail.

[c627627]

Any ideas on alternate software?


SHARP Universal Video Cassette Recorder – Model VC-TA55 I bought the other day here:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180478619173


Once again, it plays a European VHS tape perfectly fine on my Plasma and on my PC using D-SCaler.

ATI MMC displays the picture stable but w/o color using other Pal options, not Pal-N.
Dscaler has Pal-M and Pal-N, and Pal-N shows up fine.

I'm hunting down ATi MMC on ATi's German we site now. Any ideas on alternate software?

[c627627]

I downloaded ATI Multimedia Center from ATi's German web site and got same results.


So if I were to buy this card in Europe, do you think things would work with ATi MMC?
I think my best bet is to find a way to use different software, can DScaler be regedited to capture full res 720x480?

[edDV]

This site shows this Sharp VC-TA55 mainly targeted to PAL areas.

It plays PAL as PAL 4.43. You need a Euro PAL capture device for this recorder.

http://cgi.ebay.com/SHARP-Universal-Video-Cassette-Recorder-%1A-Model-VC-TA55_W0QQitem...9#ht_535wt_909

NTSC plays at 3.58 or 4.43 (PAL60).

If this is right you shouldn't be seeing a PAL tape playing color with PAL-N capture settings.

Anyone got better specs for this deck?


PS: Dude!

If these specs are right, you were sold a Euro spec deck as "multi-standard". But he said "universal". True it does play an NTSC tape.

"Multi-standard" decks do not sell for $49. Add a digit. Cheaper to find a 625/50 PAL capture device.

[c627627]

First, here's the latest. The All-in-Wonder 9200 system cannot display a steady pic even using Dscaler. The TV Wonder Pro card can, but only using Dscaler.

Picture is clear and in color, just as it is when this VCR is connected to a HDTV.
DSCaler > Actions > Recording > Options > has a Full height (interlaced option) which captures video into a 720x576 YUY2 format avi file. Please correct me if I am wrong but from there it is just a matter of simply converting it into a 720x480 MPEG-DVD file.


I have one goal and one goal only: to have a VCR which can play European VHS tapes so that my computer can make US [ntsc] DVDs out of them. Am I missing anything as far as being ale to accomplish this goal using a $10 TV Wonder Pro and this $49 VCR as described?

[edDV]

First, here's the latest. The All-in-Wonder 9200 system cannot display a steady pic even using Dscaler. The TV Wonder Pro card can, but only using Dscaler.

Picture is clear and in color, just as it is when this VCR is connected to a HDTV.

You are fortunate your HDTV decodes PAL. This is rare in the USA. What is the TV make and model?

DSCaler > Actions > Recording > Options > has a Full height (interlaced option) which captures the video into a 720x576 YUY2 format avi file. Please correct me if I am wrong but from there it is just a matter of simply converting it into a 720x480 MPEG-DVD file, true or false?

False, not without serious quality degrade. How would you go about 720x576/25 to 720x480/29.97 "convert"?

I have one goal and one goal only: to have a VCR which can play European VHS tapes so that my computer can make a US DVDs out of them. Am I missing anything as far as being ale to accomplish this goal using a $10 TV Wonder Pro and this $49 VCR as described?

With no additional investment? A different VCR? Not without significant transcode issues.

Too bad this wasn't a DVD.

[lordsmurf]

The ATI MMC software may or may not support multiple standard capture from composite. ATI documentation doesn't show support.http://ati.amd.com/products/radeon9200/aiw9200/specs.html.

I know for a fact that the 7200, 8500, 9000, 9200, 9600 and 9800 will all capture PAL and NTSC, plus a few other variants, through composite or s-video, and using ATI MMC -- I've been doing it for about 9 years now.

Aside from the tuner, the cards are identical worldwide for the same model.

If your card won't capture PAL, then the card is broken, or the software/drivers are mis-installed, or the VCR has issues.

ATI documentation is unreliable and poorly written.

[c627627]

lordsmurf, I am very familiar with every setting of MMC, I've read everything you've written. The fact that the VCR is outputting clear color picture coming through TV Wonder Pro should indicate that the card is capable of displaying the signal. Would you say that the way to make MMC display it would be to go to Video TAB > Broadcast Standard > change setting to one of the many PAL options. And that's it?

When I do that, the picture is not stable or in color but it is stable and in color using DScaler clearly proving that the card is not defective since DScaler displays things OK, it's just that MMC does not.


edDV, it's a Panasonic TH-42PH9UK. But that means that I have no way of testing things unless I take the DVD somewhere else, would this help, a screenshot of the resulting converted NTSC MPEG-DVD:

[hech54]

PS: Dude!

If these specs are right, you were sold a Euro spec deck as "multi-standard". But he said "universal". True it does play an NTSC tape.

"Multi-standard" decks do not sell for $49. Add a digit. Cheaper to find a 625/50 PAL capture device.

For the 1000th time....every VHS deck sold here in Europe is "multi-standard". They easily, happily and willingly accept and play both native PAL and foreign NTSC tapes on our televisions. They are as cheap as €49. What they are NOT are converting VCR that convert correctly between the two video formats.

[danno78]

The ATI MMC software may or may not support multiple standard capture from composite. ATI documentation doesn't show support.http://ati.amd.com/products/radeon9200/aiw9200/specs.html.

I know for a fact that the 7200, 8500, 9000, 9200, 9600 and 9800 will all capture PAL and NTSC, plus a few other variants, through composite or s-video, and using ATI MMC -- I've been doing it for about 9 years now.

Aside from the tuner, the cards are identical worldwide for the same model.

If your card won't capture PAL, then the card is broken, or the software/drivers are mis-installed, or the VCR has issues.

ATI documentation is unreliable and poorly written.

Very true. The drivers for cards based on ATi Rage Theater Pro and Ati Theater 200 can work with all SD standards over composite and S-Video connections. Try capture with VirtualDub and select the right format sent by vcr. If your tape is PAL the files must be 720x576 and 25i fps. If you want to convert in NTSC standard use avisynth script or better leave as PAL to avoid quality loss.

LE Other conversion tools will hurt even more the quality.

[edDV]

Using a multi system VCR to play a European Pal VHS tape: The video shows up fine when played on my Plasma TV connected through an RCA cable. But European Pal VHS tapes cannot show up clearly when connected to a video capture card, only NTSC US tapes show up clearly.


Are HDTVs decoding the PAL signal and Video capture cards can't [TV Wonder Pro + All-In-Wonder 9200]?

I tried changing the modes on the VCR but when set up correctly, picture shows up on HDTV but not on the computer.

Let's start over and summarize the infomation we now have.

You bought a Sharp VC-TA55 Euro version PAL VCR that can play PAL tapes as PAL (4.43 MHz subcarrier). It can also play NTSC tapes and output with either 3.58 (normal NTSC) or 4.43 PAL subcarrier (aka PAL60). It will not play PAL and convert to NTSC.

You also have a Panasonic TH-42PH9UK HDTV that can decode and display PAL directly from the VCR. This TV is multi-standard and can decode NTSC, PAL, PAL60 and SECAM.
http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/panasonic-th-42ph9uk/4505-6482_7-31986261.html

You also have an ATI capture card [All-In-Wonder 9200] that Lordsmurf assures us can be set to capture PAL from that VCR using ATI MMC or third party software. If you use the MMC, you can use the card's hardware to encode directly to a PAL MPeg2 file which can be used to author a PAL DVD. If you use Virtualdub or Dscaler to capture, you would capture uncompressed 720x576i/25 fps or use software encoding.

So now we know what you have, what do you want to do next?

[c627627]

Well put. The VCR has one RCA audio out. Tapes are old and in mono anyway. Is RCA splitter put on the VCR the way to go when connecting the VCR to the L/R RCA inputs on ATI capture card adapters the way to go?

After Dscaler captures 720x576/25 to avi, can you please just clarify what I should do after importing the avi file into a video editing program:

• 720x480/29.97 MPEG DVD
• 720x576/29.97 MPEG DVD

or when you guys say 'better leave as PAL to avoid quality loss', do you mean
• 720x576/25 MPEG DVD and most DVD players in USA will then play it?

[hech54]

Standard European VCRs do NOT have the ability to output an NTSC tape as true NTSC. It is always a quasi/hybrid signal.

[lordsmurf]

If you have correct drivers, and depending on the version of ATI MMC, you can capture quasi-signal "PAL60" (29.97fps PAL subcarrier) with ATI All In Wonder AGP Radeon cards. I've done it. Not too often, however, because I don't get many PAL-M Brazilian tapes.

I capture PAL as PAL and NTSC as NTSC.

Your problem is with trying to play a NTSC tape in a plain consumer PAL VHS VCR, and not realizing it DOES NOT convert the signal to 100% true PAL. It's playing as PAL60 (aka PAL-M, aka PAL Brazil).

Coincidentally, if you need/want a true "converting VCR", I have a Panasonic AG-W3 available. It plays and converts between formats (all except French SECAM-L).

[edDV]

Standard European VCRs do NOT have the ability to output an NTSC tape as true NTSC. It is always a quasi/hybrid signal.

True but this particular Sharp model claims ability to play NTSC tapes as NTSC with 3.58 subcarrier or as PAL60.

[edDV]

If you have correct drivers, and depending on the version of ATI MMC, you can capture quasi-signal "PAL60" (29.97fps PAL subcarrier) with ATI All In Wonder AGP Radeon cards. I've done it. Not too often, however, because I don't get many PAL-M Brazilian tapes.

I capture PAL as PAL and NTSC as NTSC.

Your problem is with trying to play a NTSC tape in a plain consumer PAL VHS VCR, and not realizing it DOES NOT convert the signal to 100% true PAL. It's playing as PAL60 (aka PAL-M, aka PAL Brazil).

Coincidentally, if you need/want a true "converting VCR", I have a Panasonic AG-W3 available. It plays and converts between formats (all except French SECAM-L).

PAL60 and PAL-M are different formats.

A normal NTSC VHS VCR uses the color under recording system. First incoming NTSC video goes through Y/C separation either by notch or comb filter. The remaining monochrome Y signal is used to FM modulate RF to tape. The 3.58 MHz color subcarrier is down converted to 629 KHz and AM modulates the RF to tape. On playback the 629 KHz color information is upconverted back to 3.58 MHz and added to luminance to produce composite NTSC.

PAL60 is 525 line, 59.94 fields per second but with 4.43 MHz subcarrier with PAL encoding. A VCR PAL60 mode upconverts the NTSC 629 KHz off tape color information to 4.43 MHz, then decodes U and V and applies "phase alternation" field to field. The result is a 60 field per second quasi PAL that can be decoded by a PAL TV.

PAL-M is a broadcast transmission format used in Brazil. PAL-M is 525 line, 59.94 fields per second but with 3.58 MHz PAL encoding. The only difference vs. NTSC is the color phase alternates field to field producing line to line color phase averaging (no hue shift). TV channel width is 6 MHz like NTSC.

PAL-N used in Argentina, Uruguay and Paraguay is 625 line, 50 fields per second like European PAL but with the PAL subcarrier at 3.58 MHz instead of 4.43 MHz. The channel width is 6MHz like NTSC.

[lordsmurf]

Hmmmm...... I remember this.

I think I've mixed them together again because the ATI card does it. It doesn't necessarily distinguish the 4.43 vs 3.58.

I'll have to test this out again ... and write it down this time.

Thanks for catching my error there.

[edDV]

Well put. The VCR has one RCA audio out. Tapes are old and in mono anyway. Is RCA splitter put on the VCR the way to go when connecting the VCR to the L/R RCA inputs on ATI capture card adapters the way to go?

After Dscaler captures 720x576/25 to avi, can you please just clarify what I should do after importing the avi file into a video editing program:

• 720x480/29.97 MPEG DVD
• 720x576/29.97 MPEG DVD

or when you guys say 'better leave as PAL to avoid quality loss', do you mean
• 720x576/25 MPEG DVD and most DVD players in USA will then play it?

Yes you would use a Y splitter to the capture card. Alternately, some capture cards can designate the left or right channel input as monaural and copy that to both channels.

'better leave as PAL to avoid quality loss'

Yes it would be 720x576/25. Some DVD players in the US will play PAL as PAL. These are mostly the cheap Chinese brands. Some will digitally convert PAL DVD playback to 720x480/29.97 NTSC. The Philips 5990/92 is an example. Most US DVD models won't play a PAL DVD at all. Most computer software will play a PAL DVD to the computer monitor or out the video connectors.

In your case, your TV can handle PAL as PAL. You should find a DVD player that will play PAL DVD as PAL for the best quality.

[c627627]

There is a lot of very useful information in this thread and I thank you for it. ATi cards have two RCA inputs so the Y splitter would have to go on VCR out, any pros vs. cons of using Y-Splitter at VCR out vs. using only L or R RCA in and then using software to get the mono sound to both channels?

fyi: VirtualDub 1.9.8 displays B&W grainy but stable picture no matter which Video > Capture filter is chosen. Picture is grainy B&W just like ATi MMC.

So: *only* DScaler displays clear stable picture in color. Attached is the screen shot of this VCR's options.


I am familiar with all ATI MMC option settings but am at a loss to explain why ATI MMC cannot display a stable picture in color whereas DSCaler can. DSCler captures 720x576@25 avi.


I tested the VCR on a regular TV and it does not display the pic. I tested two DVDs made out of the .avi capture:
1. 720x480@29.97 DVD plays just fine.
2. 720x576@25 DVD I get a disc error.


Should I make a 720x576@29.97 DVD as my best choice? How bad is the degradation, this is 1990's old VHS camcorder footage that appears to be just fine on the DVD.


Should I get a $10 PAL capture card? What would that change when I already have DScaler 720x576@25 avi captures, is there anything wrong with them?

[edDV]

Single RCA audio is better than Y-Splitter if your software will handle monaural. Splitting drops the levels forcing an auto gain adjustment raising the noise floor.

Your Sharp VCR plays PAL as PAL no matter what settings you use in that menu. The Menu only affects how NTSC is played. In your case, you should play NTSC as normal 3.58 but the other settings will get a picture on that Panasonic TV model.

Your best quality DVD will be PAL 720x576/25. You can also try a conversion to NTSC (many methods) to have something that can play on any NTSC DVD player to a normal NTSC TV. NTSC would be 720x480/29.97.

[c627627]

Thank you. Should I connect the RCA out to L or R RCA in on the ATi card? Will DScaler handle monoaural since that is the only software I found capable of displaying the picture in color. Otherwise I can capture audio separately then manually match or use the Y splitter and degrade.

I will change the setting from 4.43 to 3.58 when I capture as suggested.


You final suggestion is to go with
PAL 720x576/25 DVD or
NTSC 720x480/29.97 DVD.


The 720x576/25 DVD I made would not play on an inexpensive DVD player connected to a standard TV but it does play on my DVD player connected to Plasma. I think I will test the 720x576/25 DVD on my parents' DVD player to see if it can play it on their standard TV before deciding whether to make
720x576/25 DVDs or
720x480/29.97 DVDs.

[edDV]

By convention white (left) is used for monaural but this should be tested.

I don't use DScaler, so you need to test.

For quality make a PAL DVD

For distribution to NTSC people send the lower quality NTSC conversion or send both.

[c627627]

Finally, can you tell me about
Dscaler capture to 720x576/25 .avi then 720x576/25 DVD using my equipment,
vs.
using a real converting VCR and/or PAL capture card.

[c627627]

• Any changes to screen shot 1?

• No Recompression or change to Full Frames (uncompressd) in screen shot 2?

• Looks like Audio is grayed out and there is no way to set monaural, plus it is set to 44,000 Hz. Perhaps I can import the audio captured through white (left) then import it into something like Sony Soundforge and set it to monaural manually then set that as audio on DVD? Should I change the 44,000 Hz to 48,000 Hz manually too?