Best VHS/DVD recorder?

[Michael 77]

I would like to start a small vhs to dvd conversion company. Can i use a pro vhs/dvd recorder like the JVC SR-MV45US? Is it a good choice? Or do i have to go the quality svcr to dvd recorder route? Any help would be appreciated.

[hech54]

The best VHS/DVD recorder is one left unsold on the store shelf.

[kimco52]

If you want a dual purpose deck for your home, go for it.
If you want to use it in a business to charge people money to dub their tapes to dvd, forget it.
For a professional business, you need professional equipment. Separate tape and dvd decks. Add a timebase corrector/proc amp so you can correct playback errors from the tape deck. I like to strip off sync and chroma and regenerate clean pulses and add back together (in a proc amp/framer). Anything less than that, I would not like to put my name on the finished product.

[lordsmurf]

If you want a dual purpose deck for your home, go for it. If you want to use it in a business to charge people money to dub their tapes to dvd, forget it. For a professional business, you need professional equipment. Separate tape and dvd decks. Add a timebase corrector/proc amp so you can correct playback errors from the tape deck. I like to strip off sync and chroma and regenerate clean pulses and add back together (in a proc amp/framer). Anything less than that, I would not like to put my name on the finished product.

Agree 1,000%

This is about on par with asking the local drug store pharmacist what brand of cough syrup is best to use, because you want to open a doctor's office.

You can't buy a DVD recorder and expect to open a business. I watched many try, and all of them fail.

If you're wanting to get good equipment for your own projects, maybe charge a few people you know to convert some of their videos (mostly to cover the equipment costs!), yeah maybe.

The JVC SR-MV45US is a great machine, but if you're thinking that's all you'll need, you're in for a world of hurt. That you're even asking these questions means you're in over your head. At minimum, you'd have to add a TBC, for loopback recording.

Sorry if I sound mean, but I feel the need to be honest here.

You'll need several thousand $$$$ worth of good equipment (for example: many VCRs, not just one), to handle the VHS tapes out in the wild, plus experience in video to get you through the projects. It's not as easy as cramming a tape in the VCR, putting a blank in the DVD recorder, hitting RECORD and walking away.

[jman98]

On top of all of this, you'll have the following issues.
1) Some customer somewhere will have some ancient piece of crap DVD player that is going bad and even if you made the DVDs for this customer with the best media and they were made properly, that guy's DVD player won't play your disc and it will be YOUR fault, according to him. Are you prepared to deal with that? Many consumers have ancient DVD players that are problematic when playing recordable media, yet they never consider that they might need to replace them.
2) Many people who want to set up mom and pop video shops end up getting obsessed with preventing people from copying the DVDs they make. This is probably because opening such a shop is no way to get rich, so some owners get very protective of their work as any lost sale hurts financially. Hollywood, with all of its billions of dollars, can only make it difficult, but not impossible, to copy DVDs. You won't have access to their tools, so there's no realistic way to prevent people from copying your work. If your business model depends on zero unauthorized copies being made, you can't make money at this.

[kimco52]

That you're even asking these questions means you're in over your head.

Sorry if I sound mean, but I feel the need to be honest here.

I was going to say that but decided to be nice. I'm glad you added it for me in a more diplomatic way, Lordsmurf.

[OneTwoThree]

Tough crowd here. Sounds like someone doesn't want another competitor.

Yes - you will need professional equipment if you want your video transfer business to last, but don't let that stop you. One of the more well known companies located in Chattanooga, TN (Southtree) use quite a bit of consumer type equipment and they seem to be doing just fine. Sure they do have a pile of complaints with the BBB (which is probably more from poor customer service), but they have a slick website and know how to market.

Honestly, it isn't rocket science when transferring most video tapes to DVD. VHS (and older formats) probably provide the most problems, so yes you will need TBC, but you can find this stuff on Ebay for pennies on the dollar. The newer formats (like Hi8 and MiniDV) typically do not need much to get a high quality transfer. You could easily buy a DVD recorder and a Hi8 or MiniDV camcorder -- and you are set.

Just do a lot of homework and strive to offer the best quality you can. Now if you want to convert professional formats -- that can get a bit more expensive... but equipment still comes cheap on Ebay.

[victoriabears]

I cannot believe there is much money to be made , dear sir, go to school, get a qualification and save your energy for some thing long term

[lordsmurf]

Tough crowd here. Sounds like someone doesn't want another competitor.

We're just tired of liars, idiots and quacks who shopped at Best Buy and Walmart for equipment. If you don't have good equipment, you simply cannot get good results. There's no cheat.

, but don't let that stop you. One of the more well known companies located in Chattanooga, TN (Southtree) use quite a bit of consumer type equipment and they seem to be doing just fine.

Just because somebody else offers garbage-grade service doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

Sure they do have a pile of complaints with the BBB (which is probably more from poor customer service),

Well, duh. If you use low-end equipment, you'll end up with low-end crap output. And people will complain.

but they have a slick website and

Oh, so that makes it all okay? In fact, I took a look at their site. It's full of myths (or lies, depending on how you want to look at it). Things like "tape fade" are impossible, and the "average" life span of a VHS tape is far more than 10-15 years. That's just perpetuated horseshit, meaning they must not really know much about video aside from what they read on forums, Wikipedia, etc, and decided to rewrite into texts full of typos and grammatical errors. FYI: Those myths didn't start to circulate until about 2003 or so. I'm especially amused by the "DataDVD" as if that was some new miraculous format of their own creation.

know how to market..

Translation: Know how to feed enough bullshit to a potential customer to scare them into using the service. "All my tapes are dying! Holy cow, I better send them to you right away!"

but equipment still comes cheap on Ebay.

Yeah, great -- but you'll find much of it is in rotten condition.

it isn't rocket science when transferring most video tapes to DVD

Actually, yes, it most certainly is, if you want the best possible results. If you just want a crummy quality transfer, sure, stick it in any old piece of crap from Walmart and do it yourself. No need to pay the store down the street that does the same thing.

I cannot believe there is much money to be made

There isn't, especially not long-term. These strip-mall companies all have limited lifespans, sort of like the bulk-grade photomats of the 80s-90s. The people with actual skill at video will still have a job in 20-30 years. These charlatans running VHS-to-DVD budget shops will shrivel up as soon as the demand goes away. The recession kicked many of them in the ass already.


This topic -- treating video as a "get rich quick" easy DIY service -- always aggravates me.

[kimco52]

Tough crowd here. Sounds like someone doesn't want another competitor.

I don't care if there is another competitor out there. Quite frankly, I have all the pro equipment to do this because I use it for other tasks. I don't make dubs for people as a business. If a friend asks me to make a dub/copy, I'll probably do it as a favor but I am not in the business to do it for making money. Not worth my time. I have other things to do.

Having said that, I agree with everything Lordsmurf has said about this topic. The fact that this thread is old and has sat dormant for a long time indicates that the OP probably isn't around now, anyway. Looks like he made the original post just after joining and hasn't posted anything since that original.

[OneTwoThree]

There is a lot of good professional (and in good shape) equipment on E-Bay. I just got a brand new S-VHS Professional PAL deck for less than $125. Brand new -- in a box -- never been opened -- rack mountable. It is there, you just have to look for it. Add that to a good capture card from Blackmagic or Matrox, a Mac and Final Cut Studio --- you can make extremely high quality (motion-adaptive) conversions of PAL to NTSC -- and you've spent what $3k?

I'm not saying go to Walmart and buy your stuff... but I am saying that if you are a perfectionist, know how to market and are honest -- you can be successful in this business. Add film transfers using frame-by-frame technology from Moviestuff and you've got a good thing going for at least 5 to 10 years. I don't know who can guarantee work for longer than that -- especially with a changing economy and new technologies always emerging.

You guys should just lighten up a bit. Kinda sounds like old school video veterans waking up on the wrong side of the bed. LOL

[OneTwoThree]

Another thing -- looking at one of the poster's profile on equipment...

An "AVT-8710 TBC" is far from professional! I mean seriously -- you need to "walk the walk" if you are going to "talk the talk!" Maybe this is what you call "Prosumer." It doesn't even have component ins or outs. I doubt it is even 10bit.

Not trying to stir up things but I thought professional meant like Snell and Wilcox, not AV Toolbox.

I'm aware of another top 10 video transfer company that does use AVT-8710's on all of their stuff (or a model very similar that you can buy on Ebay cheap) -- they're located in Georgia. They advertise color correction on all of their tapes. Now that is deceptive! LOL

[lordsmurf]

An "AVT-8710 TBC" is far from professional! I mean seriously -- you need to "walk the walk" if you are going to "talk the talk!" Maybe this is what you call "Prosumer." It doesn't even have component ins or outs. I doubt it is even 10bit. Not trying to stir up things but I thought professional meant like Snell and Wilcox, not AV Toolbox.

Then that just how little you know about video. TBCs from Cypress (AV Toolbox is just a private label) and DataVideo were created specifically for handling consumer formats. This isn't just my guess, or my assumption -- it's printed right on the manuals! TBCs from broadcast racks can specifically choke on consumer formats, as they were not created for that type of source input. I've used $4K TBCs, and they simply do not handle these tasks well -- not to mention they are ridiculously huge and hot.

They advertise color correction on all of their tapes. Now that is deceptive! LOL

Again -- you display your limited knowledge, or complete lack thereof. All that it takes for some modest color correction is a really good proc amp in the hardware chain, such as an Elite or SignVideo piece.

Based on your posts so far, I can say without a doubt that you don't know what you're talking about.

And you sure as hell don't want a Mac with Final Cut, if you're handling VHS work. That's a DV centric workflow that works piss poor when given a VHS source based project. It fully lacks the filters and processing needed for quality transfer work.

I'm done.

[OneTwoThree]

OMG - this is getting ridiculous.

This isn't just my guess, or my assumption -- it's printed right on the manuals!

Wow - you believe everything you read in a manual? Especially on a sub $200 TBC unit?

And you sure as hell don't want a Mac with Final Cut, if you're handling VHS work. That's a DV centric workflow that works piss poor when given a VHS source based project. It fully lacks the filters and processing needed for quality transfer work.

What professional uses a DV codec with Final Cut Pro? I mean seriously? ProRes is the standard format. It sounds like you sir are over your head.

Again -- you display your limited knowledge, or complete lack thereof. All that it takes for some modest color correction is a really good proc amp in the hardware chain, such as an Elite or SignVideo piece.

And color correction? Are you serious? Have you ever color corrected anything with a DaVinci System?

We're talking apples and oranges here.

I've used $4K TBCs, and they simply do not handle these tasks well -- not to mention they are ridiculously huge and hot.

What $4k TBC system have you used within the last couple of years? Not one that was worth $4k twenty years ago, but one you can buy now at that price? These units are very good at what they do -- especially with unstable analog formats.

In summary, your own response:

Based on your posts so far, I can say without a doubt that you don't know what you're talking about.

[lordsmurf]

ProRes is unnecessary for VHS, and still confines you to (H)DV-centric Mac workflows. I can only guess you've never worked with any of these workflows, as it's hindering.

Davinci Revival is for correcting film defects, not color correction.
Davinci Resolve is for color correction to film or professional digital HD video, not video tapes.

The DataVideo TBC has been well discussed for the past 10+ years now, I see no need to re-hash what's already common knowledge. DataVideo has chosen to be very transparent about their products, and largely avoid hyping like you see from Canopus and other "big brands" like Canon or Sony.

This must be what it's like to argue with the Wikipedia generation. Your knowledge is clearly from reading random junk online, and not actually being in the field in any capacity.

[poisondeathray]

Davinci Resolve is for resolution enhancements to film, not color correction.

Actually it's for color correction

DaVinci colorists are in big demand for high end productions

But I doubt anyone would use it for a VHS transfer

[lordsmurf]

Correct, Resolve is for color work: http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/davinciresolve. (I was thinking of another product when I wrote the last post. So many programs out there.) At any rate, Davinci Resolve was created for film or video shot directly to HD digital formats (i.e., from a Red).

With a consumer format tape, your color data is limited. A decent proc amp or even Adobe Premiere is more than adequate for that.

[OneTwoThree]

Look - I understand where you are coming from... but I think the personal insults can stop now. Wouldn't it be better to keep this as a more civilized discussion, rather than just look foolish?

I'm 38 (far far far from the "Wikipedia Generation") and have produced several documentaries where I did use some footage from old VHS tapes (plus other analog formats like U-Matic). DaVinci was used for color correction.

On Final Cut Pro -- here you are completely wrong. I suggest you do some reading up on Wikipedia yourself. And look it is okay to not always be right on everything. We all learn from each other.

ProRes is not limiting, but rather quite the industry standard in the Mac world. It is super fast, small file size and can give you 4:4:4 color space. I don't know where you keep on thinking it is based on the DV or HDV codec. Far from it. Please read up before you bash...

If you think ProRes is unnecessary for VHS restoration -- then what codec do you suggest? I'm sure Avid has some great codecs as well -- if you are coming from that side.

Your knowledge is clearly from reading random junk online, and not actually being in the field in any capacity.

LOL - Ok... I'm not in the field in any capacity. LOL Well something pays my mortgage and it isn't flipping hamburgers.

[lordsmurf]

4:4:4 for VHS is like
- a dedicated server for grandma, so she can have an email account
- a Phase One to take photos at junior's birthday party
- a Red to video junior's birthday party
- an atomic bomb for an ant bed

ProRes is a lossy intermediary that exists solely for Apple software (specifically, the FCP NLE). Nothing is shot in ProRes, and in fact nothing is delivered in ProRes for distribution. It's honestly nothing more than an Apple hack to expand what very much started as a DV/HDV only type of workflow. And that differs entirely for what's needed for working with consumer tapes. Not to mention you don't need an NLE at all for conversion work.

You've jumped from supporting low-end junk, to high-priced filmmaker tools that are wrong for the project. I don't get it.

This reminds me of some of this HORRIBLE advice I sometimes see at Creative Cow.

[OneTwoThree]

Well at least the personal attacks have dropped off a bit - LOL.

I'm not suggesting ProRes 4:4:4 is recommended for VHS. ProRes is an intermediate codec. ProRes 4:2:2 is perfect for capturing VHS if you plan to really tweak it up. It all depends on what you are doing.

Again -- I ask -- what format would you recommend to capture and edit a VHS tape with?

Creative Cow has industry experts -- so there is lots of good advice going on that forum. And the people are civilized.

Anyway -- I get it --- you're not a Mac person. I use both Macs and PCs for my work. I find they both have their strengths and weaknesses, but I don't diss one or the other. You're also probably a bit old school. Nothing wrong with that either. Maybe next time you could be a bit more cordial.

There's a difference between giving good advice and good advice with underlying insults.

[lordsmurf]

ProRes 4:2:2 is perfect for capturing VHS if you plan to really tweak it up.

I completely disagree in almost all scenarios. Only if mixing in VHS source to a larger ProRes based project would it be required. And that's mostly because your hands are tied. To use ProRes on a VHS only project would be, to be quite blunt, absolutely stupid, as it's just another generation of loss being introduced.

Again -- I ask -- what format would you recommend to capture and edit a VHS tape with?

It depends on the needs of the project. There is no one answer. Sometimes lossless, sometimes uncompressed 422, sometimes MPEG-2.

Creative Cow has industry experts -- so there is lots of good advice going on

Yes, but I still I see quite a bit of bad advice there. For example, just yesterday I saw posts from an so-called "expert" suggesting a person encode a DSLR H.264 to WMV with Pavtube (Chinese crapware) in order to get the footage to import to Premiere. That's newbie advice, and quite bad at that. CC gives the impression of being a community of experts, but I observe it to be a situation where less than half of the posting members have any idea what's what.

I use both Macs and PCs for my work. I find they both have their strengths and weaknesses,

Same here. I'm platform agnostic. These are just tools. Mac is the wrong tool for VHS conversion, however. It's no more proper than is using a screwdriver to beat in nails. Yeah, it can be done, but it's not pretty. Use the hammer. Save the screwdriver for screws.

[OneTwoThree]

It depends on the needs of the project. There is no one answer. Sometimes lossless, sometimes uncompressed 422, sometimes MPEG-2.

Well in a perfect world, uncompressed would be the way to go... but the file size is ridiculously large (not to mention the hard drive array needed to capture or play it back). I vote ProRes -- it is easy to use, practically no generation loss after 10 trips and doesn't require specialized hardware. Now on MPEG-2, I don't know why one would want edit / restore in that format... it doesn't make any sense.

Mac is the wrong tool for VHS conversion, however. It's no more proper than is using a screwdriver to beat in nails. Yeah, it can be done, but it's not pretty. Use the hammer. Save the screwdriver for screws.

I don't get this one either. Don't really see why one or the other would be better for video capture. It is all about your capture card and software.

Some filmmakers edit on Macs and some edit on PCs. This is a personal preference issue.