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  1. Member brassplyer's Avatar
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    Comparison of two 16:9 DV avi files - about 6 secs 20 megs.

    Original untreated

    http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/3/11/1809238/test.avi


    Same file run through Thalen DeShaker.

    http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/3/11/1809238/test_deshake_problem.avi

    Notice the artifacts very noticeable around the orange "tiles" on the roof and the "Storm Struck" sign.

    Any idea how I can get rid of this?

    Thanks
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  2. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Can't get your files.

    No free lunch.

    Removing camera shake results in artifacts. You are re-processing every pixel.

    Next time use a tripod.
    Recommends: Kiva.org - Loans that change lives.
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  3. Member hech54's Avatar
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    .....or buy a Steady-cam.
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  4. Member brassplyer's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by edDV
    Can't get your files.
    You mean you can't access them? They download fine here.

    No free lunch.

    Removing camera shake results in artifacts. You are re-processing every pixel.

    Next time use a tripod.
    I assume you're being facetious about the tripod and in reality grasp it's not always practical.

    So why are the artifacts more noticeable under certain circumstances? It seems they show up primarily around the edges of objects.
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  5. Member edDV's Avatar
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    I don't see your files on the page linked.
    Recommends: Kiva.org - Loans that change lives.
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  6. Member hech54's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by brassplyer
    I assume you're being facetious about the tripod and in reality grasp it's not always practical.
    What you are trying to achieve, with what you have, is a drastic loss of a grasp on reality.

    I'm guessing this is not your camera?


    Or at least this one?
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  7. Member brassplyer's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by edDV
    I don't see your files on the page linked.
    Dunno what happened, the videohelp site did something to the link. I've re-edited and as of this time the links are showing correctly and clicking on them invokes a download applet.
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  8. Member brassplyer's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by hech54
    I'm guessing this is not your camera?
    Yes, I walked around Disney World with that same model. I just figured I'd touch up the image with Vdub.

    The question wasn't "why doesn't my $200 Handycam produce images like high-end pro gear" but what if anything can be done about artifacts with a particular Virtualdub filter.
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  9. Are you talking about the comb artifacts?



    That's normal for interlaced video. Note that Windows DV decoder will normally perform a simple BOB deinterlace when playing DV so you will see jagged, buzzing edges instead of comb artifacts. If you're going to make a DVD leave the video interlaced.

    Be sure to use DeShaker in interlaced mode.
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  10. Member brassplyer's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jagabo
    Are you talking about the comb artifacts.
    No, I'm talking about a general "static/fuzziness" that appears in the treated file compared to the original. I see it both within Vdub and playing with WMP.

    It's harder to point out with individual frames since it appears more prominently when the video is in motion, but compare for example the long right diagonal edge of the blue roof at frame 1869 between the two. See how much less distinct that edge looks? Look at that same place with the files in motion. Also notice the sign in the background.

    You don't see what I'm talking about? I've got the deshaking set very mildly, so it's not just because you lose resolution due to the "zoom" imposed by the filter, there's very little frame lost in this example.
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  11. You have to keep in mind that each frame contains two half images. Each of those half images is missing the other half of the image. The deshaking can't work as well with that and you get more aliasing artifacts, ie, buzzing edges.

    It might work better if you bob deinterlace first. That will turn each field into a full frame. Deshaking that may work a little better. You can the take the output from the deshake, split it into fields and weave them back together. Here's a VirtualDub filter chain that works:



    Using a better deinterlacer like AviSynth's TempGaussMC_beta1() should give even better results:
    Code:
    import("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\TempGaussMC_beta1.avs")
    
    AVISource("test.avi")
    ConvertToYV12(interlaced=true)
    TempGaussMC_beta1()
    SeparateFields()
    SelectEvery(4,0,3)
    Weave()
    One thing I noticed about your deshaken clip -- the edges were rougher than I would have expected. Here's a crop from your clip (simple bob deinterace) and from mine (default deshake settings):

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  12. Member brassplyer's Avatar
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    Thanks Jagabo - I'll give that filter chain a try. I'm not really familiar with steering AVIsynth, I should probably try it that way too as practice.

    Much of your post wasn't showing up at first but now it is.
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  13. TempGaussMC_beta1() requires a bunch of other filters. You'll have to download and install them all if you want to try it out. See the docs for details.
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  14. Member brassplyer's Avatar
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    On that Vdub filter chain, how are you doing it? Are you leaving all filters active during the initial pass with the Deshaker or turning them off on first pass? Are you hitting the output button or using the "run analysis pass" command?

    You say you used the "default" DeShaker settings, but that specifies square pixels, progressive scan and the wrong dimension for DV avi. Can you clarify?

    I tried it and just got different artifacts.
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    Because TGMC is so slow, it would be prudent to encode to a lossless intermediate first, to avoid heavy processing on multiple passes

    So:

    AVISource("file.avi")
    TempGaussMC_Beta1()

    Encode that to a lossless format e.g. huffyuv, lagarith, UT

    Then re-import that lossless AVI into vdub and use deshaker.

    Vdub and avisynth assume square pixel, but the frame size should be the same. It's your export format that specifies different PAR setting (setting an aspect ratio flag that tells the player to "stretch" the pixels upon playback)

    What is your final format goal? If it's some progressive format e.g. for PC or internet distribution, there is no need to re-interlace it
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  16. With the VDub filter chain I set up all the filters, including Deshaker set to Pass 1, then ran File -> Run Video Analysis Pass. Then I changed Deshaker to Pass 2 and ran File -> Save As AVI.

    Yes, setting Deshaker to Anamorphic NTSC should help. But after deinterlacing the video is progressive, so you should leave Deshaker set to progressive.
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  17. Member brassplyer's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jagabo
    With the VDub filter chain I set up all the filters, including Deshaker set to Pass 1, then ran File -> Run Video Analysis Pass. Then I changed Deshaker to Pass 2 and ran File -> Save As AVI.

    Yes, setting Deshaker to Anamorphic NTSC should help. But after deinterlacing the video is progressive, so you should leave Deshaker set to progressive.
    Still getting the same artifacts as before. As far as I can tell set up the same way you did.

    Screenshots



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  18. What DV decoder are you using? I wonder if it might be putting out YV12 which VirtualDub will screw up. Try forcing VirtualDub's to use its internal DV decoder.

    And as noted before, you will never get rid of those buzzing edges completely.
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  19. The simple answer is, your cam is to blame. This is an old issue, having to do with the way dv cams record 16:9 widescreen, cropping/resizing incorrectly, etc. My Canon ZR10 had similar bad function like this. I found that the only way around it was to shot 4:3 and crop it, and fake 16:9 through croping as long as the viewers didn't know this little trick, its a mute point. I'll let someone else explain that issue.

    But there's also another issue I see with your sample dv clip. It looks like it was processed. Since you didn't say you did anything to it, I'll assume that your cam is also to blame. The image looks like it was filtered, the evidense seems to point to some temporal algorithm in your dv cam. In another dv cam I own, it seems to produce very similar results like your clip. Hard to explain, but almost chisely like..the pixels. Very similar indeed. I blamed that on my cam, too.

    May try an experiment in your house. Shoot footage in both 4:3 and 16:9 modes, and run them through the same paces, then review. Post them (untouched) up here if you like.

    Use avisynth for the best 16:9 setup, but try and stay away from other filtering because in the long run it'll just get worse, and just encode to your desired format, mpeg-2 or whatever. Your cam already did several levels of damage. So leave everything else alone, set your encoder to 16:9 and use as high a bitrate the standard calls for in your destination format. For mpeg-2, I topped at 9 MBits. If you skimp bitrate because you want to fit on a cd you'll see the results later on when you least expect to. That's been my experience, and is why I mostly go with high bitrates in such circumstance.

    -vhelp 5305

    VHELP's - Sample Clips [last: 12.29.06],
    my YouTube videos
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  20. Member brassplyer's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jagabo
    What DV decoder are you using?
    Mainconcept DV
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  21. Can you force Mainconcept DV to output YUY2?
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  22. Member brassplyer's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jagabo
    Can you force Mainconcept DV to output YUY2?
    Not sure, here's the config screen


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  23. Since "YUY2 disable" isn't checked you're probably getting YUY2 in VirtualDub. Unfortunately, VirtualDub doesn't seem to report the colorspace it negotiated with the DV decoder. But try using VirtualDub's internal DV decoder anyway:

    Options -> Preferences -> AVI -> Prefer Internal Video Decoders...
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  24. Member brassplyer's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jagabo
    Since "YUY2 disable" isn't checked you're probably getting YUY2 in VirtualDub. Unfortunately, VirtualDub doesn't seem to report the colorspace it negotiated with the DV decoder. But try using VirtualDub's internal DV decoder anyway:

    Options -> Preferences -> AVI -> Prefer Internal Video Decoders...
    Interesting to know there is such an animal, but makes no difference.

    I'll have to try the 4:3 - 16:9 comparison and see what happens. That would suck to find my 16:9 video won't respond well to this filter under any circumstances.
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  25. My DV encoder can't set the 16:9 flag but here's what I get with the earlier VirtualDub filter chain:

    http://kotuha.com/file/HxjVA-deshake.html

    When I was examining your samples earlier I was looking only at BOB'd output on the screen. But I zoomed into the actual source and see a worse problem. Your deshaken output has corrupted the two fields. There are no longer distinct comb artifacts everywhere where they should be. Here's a 2x zoom from your deshaken (left) output vs mine (right):



    Mine looks like the source. Yours had corrupted the two fields. Did you do some other filtering?
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  26. Member
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    I couldn't reproduce your issues with the same filters, but I'm using a different DV decoder and encoder, cedocida.

    If you export a lossless format, like huffyuv or lagarith, do you see the corruption? If not, then it suggests the encoder is at fault. If it still is corrupted, then it suggests the decoder or your filters are at fault

    Your mainconcept dialog box is old, you might be using an outdated version, it might be corrupting your video somewhere along the line (either decode or encode). I have a newer mainconcept DV encoder (directshow, not vfw) , and it worked normally as well on a lossless export from vdub

    It wouldn't hurt to try cedocida, since it's free. You can use vcswap to temporarily disable your mainconcept vfw dv configuration
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  27. Member brassplyer's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jagabo
    My DV encoder can't set the 16:9 flag but here's what I get with the earlier VirtualDub filter chain:

    http://kotuha.com/file/HxjVA-deshake.html

    When I was examining your samples earlier I was looking only at BOB'd output on the screen. But I zoomed into the actual source and see a worse problem. Your deshaken output has corrupted the two fields. There are no longer distinct comb artifacts everywhere where they should be.

    Mine looks like the source. Yours had corrupted the two fields. Did you do some other filtering?
    No other filtering. It would appear the absence of the 16:9 is clearly a factor. I'd be satisfied if I could get it to look like that but in 16:9.

    -a minute later-

    I just triedconverting your file to 16:9, it results in what appears to be the same artifacts as I'm getting originally.

    I also notice that media info isn't reporting the Mainconcept DV codec anywhere on my DV files, it's saying Sony.
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  28. Member brassplyer's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by poisondeathray
    Your mainconcept dialog box is old, you might be using an outdated version, it might be corrupting your video somewhere along the line (either decode or encode). I have a newer mainconcept DV encoder (directshow, not vfw) , and it worked normally as well on a lossless export from vdub
    Looking at the Mainconcept site, I don't see a newer version of the DV codec than the 2.4.16 than I'm using. Where do you find yours?


    It wouldn't hurt to try cedocida, since it's free. You can use vcswap to temporarily disable your mainconcept vfw dv configuration
    I'll give this and your other suggestions a try.
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  29. Originally Posted by brassplyer
    Originally Posted by jagabo
    Mine looks like the source. Yours had corrupted the two fields. Did you do some other filtering?
    No other filtering. It would appear the absence of the 16:9 is clearly a factor. I'd be satisfied if I could get it to look like that but in 16:9.
    It's already 16:9. It's just not flagged as such. If you open it in an editor all you have to do is override the source AR.

    Originally Posted by brassplyer
    I just triedconverting your file to 16:9, it results in what appears to be the same artifacts as I'm getting originally.
    What are you doing to "convert" it to 16:9? I think this is the source of your problems, not the Deshaker filter.

    Originally Posted by brassplyer
    I also notice that media info isn't reporting the Mainconcept DV codec anywhere on my DV files, it's saying Sony.
    MediaInfo always reports Sony DV when the fourcc is "DVSD". It doesn't matter what DV decoder you're using.
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  30. Member
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    Originally Posted by brassplyer
    Looking at the Mainconcept site, I don't see a newer version of the DV codec than the 2.4.16 than I'm using. Where do you find yours?
    It's not a vfw codec (doesn't work with vdub) , it came with my DVCPRO HD pack. v7.something. I just checked the site, and I guess yours is the most recent version for standard DV. Before, I just quickly looked at the dates, yours said 2003, mine said 2008
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