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  1. I am going to try and be as detailed as possible on this, so please bare with me!

    PC Setup:

    -HDMI ready Gigabyte S-Series Motherboard - Model GA-MA69G-S3H qith ATI Redeon on board video (not sure what exact modelof the ATI graphics card it is - but the box has Blu Ray and HD ready on it)

    -3 gigs of DDR2 ram - Board can hold up to 4 gigs on 32bit (of course) and 16 gigs on 64bit.

    -Athlon DUal Core 64 processor @ 2.6 ghz - RUnning Windows XP 32 bit (may upgrade to Windows & in the future).

    -Currently have 3 hard drives - (1) 250 gb for OS and software, (2) 500gb for video capture/editing, audio recording/editing - SATA 3GB/s @ 7200RPM each.

    -I plan on adding a tower of all hard drives - perhaps the RAID setup in the future. Don't know much about it yet, talking with my PC sales guy about it soon.

    I have read several things about the Black Magic Intensity Pro card the past year or so, and did plenty of research on it. I just ordered mine tonight once I heard Sony Vegas 9 now supports it, and it should be ariving in a few days. I'll be replacing my Pinnacle Studio 8 Deluxe SD capture card with it.

    I am a hobbyist at the moment, working with a lot of SD video, but putting a project together with newer in-between interview style shots from an HD camera. I hope my gradual upgrades will push me into a small project studio runner to do some commercials/indy projects that are HD ready. But I am finding out there was more to the un-compressed capturing then I thought. So here is my overall questions/concerns.

    I currently am running my entire project studio setup on 1 pc. I do audio projects for bands as well as the video stuff. I have Sony Programs mostly for all my workstations. I just upgraded to Vegas Pro 9 when I heard it support the Intensity card. I have a Canon HV-30 video camera with HDMI output on it. It captures at 'full HD 1080i' at 1480x1080 or something close to that, with options to capture HDV @ 30fps. Some of my recordings from the HV30 are Standard HD video, while a lot of my more recent shots are at the HDV 30fps. I am not doing Blu Ray authoring yet, mostly regular DVD authoring, but I will be doing HD web videos and what not.

    From what I have read, capturing HD video through 1394 firewire will capture HD video, but it still passes through some sort DV compression. So, I wanted to do HDMI with the Intensity card to avoid the compression, but see now that I need some sort of RAID setup (not sure much about it, so I know I don't have it). I will consult my PC store guy on that.

    So, if I capture via HDMI with the BM card, I can't do 100% un-compressed video yet because of this RAID setup I don't have (yet; I plan on getting it soon with a second PC tower built with nothing but drives for storage, editing, ect.) So I capture through HDMI but with some sort of compression on during the cap, is this still a higher quality of video then the the firewire capture? And will it produce better quality video when downgrading it for SD-DVD authoring?

    I also ordered a 2nd monitor with this card. It is a 22inch Asus 1080p HDMI input monitor. So I can go from the BM's HDMI out to it for better color correcting. Has anyone work with Sony Vegas 9 with this card? I basicaly want to know if Vegas will be able to use the HDMI out of the Intensity card to the second monitor without lagging issues. Can I use the HDMI out as the 2nd output in a dual monito setup basicly...?
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  2. Member Soopafresh's Avatar
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    The HDMI capture is "real time", as in your camera needs to be tethered to the BM card while you film. 50ft is the maximum length for HDMI cables. Plus, you really do need a hardware raid configuration to capture uncompressed video quickly enough. As you can see, there are technical hurdles to do what you want. Oh, and the disk space you'd need boggles the mind. There's a $3000-4000 External HDMI "portable" drive, but once again you're tethered to that.


    http://www.convergent-design.com/CD_Products_nanoFlash.htm
    http://www.markertek.com/Video-Equipment/Digital-Video-Recorders/AJA-Video/KI-PRO.xhtml

    You didn't specify the exact processor you're using, but quite possibly you won't have enough CPU power to process the uncompressed footage.

    You can create some fantastic looking videos on the HV30 with the HDV (which is MPEG2) source files. It's 25mb bitrate. Not bad at all. Your lighting and the way you set up your shots is the important thing. Drop $100 for NeoScene software which will convert your HDV .MTS files into easy to edit Cineform AVIs. This will make your workflow much easier and you won't be faced with delays as you scrub through your footage.

    The way you film is far more important than compressed vs uncompressed video processing. Spend your $ on good 3 point lighting, a wide angle lens for the HV30, a steadicam, a fluid head tripod and an external microphone.
    "Quality is cool, but don't forget... Content is King!"
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  3. Hey soopafresh, thanks a lot. I was already looking into making a small 3 point lighting kit. In reality, I am going to be doing more standard DVD authoring and web-based videos then anything. At least on my first couple projects, as all my footage is based on VHS or old Analog 8mm. I have been doing more audio production for music/bands recently, and less video work, so I am still learning/re-learning some of this video stuff.

    I'm not looking to capture video directly from the camera. I planned on recording to tape, then playing back to BM via HDMI. Are there any known issues for that?

    Sony Vegas does something with Cineform, but I have no idea what exactly it does, or what it is able to do. I do see what you mean though, because with my mt2 files do lag when I scrub through and delay when I click from one point in the clips to another.

    Any more input on this cineform? Like, what does it exactly do, and do I have to render the cineform files differently when my project is completed?

    I am trying to stay ontop of this format thing, but damn... there is just so much to it...

    Any feedback on the 2nd display monitor with the BM card?
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  4. Member Soopafresh's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by liberty610
    Hey soopafresh, thanks a lot. I was already looking into making a small 3 point lighting kit. In reality, I am going to be doing more standard DVD authoring and web-based videos then anything. At least on my first couple projects, as all my footage is based on VHS or old Analog 8mm. I have been doing more audio production for music/bands recently, and less video work, so I am still learning/re-learning some of this video stuff.

    I'm not looking to capture video directly from the camera. I planned on recording to tape, then playing back to BM via HDMI. Are there any known issues for that?

    Sony Vegas does something with Cineform, but I have no idea what exactly it does, or what it is able to do. I do see what you mean though, because with my mt2 files do lag when I scrub through and delay when I click from one point in the clips to another.

    Any more input on this cineform? Like, what does it exactly do, and do I have to render the cineform files differently when my project is completed?

    I am trying to stay ontop of this format thing, but damn... there is just so much to it...

    Any feedback on the 2nd display monitor with the BM card?
    I don't know if it'll transfer from tape to BM via HDMI. Dunno if that ability is supported. Of course it'll work via the standard Firewire/1394 method. There wouldn't be any quality advantage to transferring one way or the other anyway - once it gets to tape inside the camera it's HDV Mpeg2 regardless.

    HDV---->NeoScene/Cineform---->Edit In Vegas---->Render Out of Vegas to DVD/DivX/h264. etc

    There's a very basic version of Cineform that ships with Vegas. It's limited to 1440x1080 resolution. NeoScene allows full 1920x1080. The files that NeoScene creates become the video you edit inside Vegas. The Cineform codec which NeoScene converts to is very efficient and fast. It's also multiprocessor aware. Once you're done editing you'd render your project into any other format you want. There's a 2 day eval of NeoScene which you can try.

    Can't help you with the BM out to monitor part. I don't own an Intensity card.
    "Quality is cool, but don't forget... Content is King!"
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  5. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by liberty610
    Hey soopafresh, thanks a lot. I was already looking into making a small 3 point lighting kit. In reality, I am going to be doing more standard DVD authoring and web-based videos then anything. At least on my first couple projects, as all my footage is based on VHS or old Analog 8mm. I have been doing more audio production for music/bands recently, and less video work, so I am still learning/re-learning some of this video stuff.

    I'm not looking to capture video directly from the camera. I planned on recording to tape, then playing back to BM via HDMI. Are there any known issues for that?
    Like Soopafresh said, it doesn't work like that. You would need to haul your computer (with RAID) out to the shooting site to gain from the HDMI connection. If your HD goal is internet distribution, there is no advantage to the BM Intensity at all. You don't need the Intensity, or the RAID disks or a monitor looped off the Intensity. Recording to HDV tape is fine for your needs for a while. I suggest you return the BM Intensity.

    The HV30 will also work in standard 720x480i DV mode. You should use your new camera for SD tasks rather than VHS or 8mm. You can also learn Vegas in SD mode.

    When you are ready to start high def recording, I suggest you start with standard 1440x1080i 59.94 field per second interlace HDV and master the work flow through Vegas. You have a lot to learn so don't complicate things. After you understand 480i and 1080i editing, try a 1080p 30 frames per second test. 30p will be more jerky for motion but may offer advantage for web distribution vs deinterlaced 1080i. Compare the results and make a choice.

    When editing HDV on an Athlon Dual Core 2.8 GHz, you will find things get laggy on the timeline. Cineform Neoscene digital intermediate format will improve editing performance and provide better size scaling. You may still wish you had a Core2Duo CPU or better.

    Originally Posted by liberty610
    Sony Vegas does something with Cineform, but I have no idea what exactly it does, or what it is able to do. I do see what you mean though, because with my mt2 files do lag when I scrub through and delay when I click from one point in the clips to another.

    Any more input on this cineform? Like, what does it exactly do, and do I have to render the cineform files differently when my project is completed?
    Cineform has a conversion app that decodes HDV MPeg2 (or AVCHD) to all I frames similar to standard def DV. It also converts the in-frame compression from DCT to wavelet which is better for multi-generation filtering or resizing. It will make it possible to edit large cumbersome HD files with a slower CPU.

    Cineform files are much larger than HDV but still can be handled on a single hard drive, so no RAID is needed. You do need to use a different drive than the OS just like you would with HDV. Vegas treats Cineform much like uncompressed video and it is almost as responsive.

    Originally Posted by liberty610
    Any feedback on the 2nd display monitor with the BM card?
    I suggest you don't use a computer monitor for color correction if the goal is video distribution. Invest instead in a TV (SD monitor for SD work and HD monitor for HD). For SD work I recommend an interlace CRT monitor (e.g. Sony PVM series) so you can detect interlace field order issues and work in proper color and gamma space.

    If your HD work will only be used for web distribution, a 2nd computer monitor can be used. See Vegas help, search "external monitoring" for connection of an SD TV or computer LCD as a video monitor.
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  6. Hmm wow... I guess I haved been away from this video stuff to long, and didn't get into as much as I should of when I was doing it. haha...

    Thanks for the replies though guys, you just saved me about $200.00 on the BM card if I send it back - witch I am probably going to now, and toss $100.00 towards the Cineform thing.

    With this updated info that my camera connected to HDMI on the BM card wouldn't work like I though, let me go into better detail on what I plan on doing for my first couple major projects, and what I have to work with. Please stick with me here; I really need my current project to be the best it can be, as old friends from high school and thier families are asking for copies of it, and this can be my intro into doing small projects for the public.

    So my first few project will mostly be on regular DVD, as I am not interested in making a jump to Blu Ray right now. I don't have enough HD project ideas yet, and it isn't a popular request around here yet. So normal DVD is my final media goal, along with hosting deleted/extra scenes online off my website for downloading. And since a lot of my upcoming projects couple projects are setup much like this first one with a lot of SD footage, I'll need SD help first, then when my HD projects come around, I'll come back.

    I have done SD projects on DVD before, but it was with basic programs like Pinnacle 8 and 9. I want to get into a more pro setup and learn what I can... having said that, here is my first project setup:

    I'm not sure if you are familure with it, but Pinnacle Studio 8 deluxe package had a capture card with 2 1394 ports on it and a pin to pin break out box for standard RCA A/V in and out (yellow video cord, red/white for stero audio). Thats what I currently have for SD capture. Sony Vegas 8 couldn't capture from it (not sure about 9 nine - havn't tried yet), so I also run Pinnacle studio 9 to capture from the card.

    When I owned my sony 8mm camera about 10 years ago (it was all analog recording- no digital), I ended up copying all the 8mm taoes to VHS. Some of the VHS tapes where not new (recorded over), and the slightest tracking issue on the VHS tape would cause Pinnacle's capture footage to bounce dramaticaly, ruining the capture. So I bought a Panasonic DVD recorder/player for TV hookup to see if recording the VHS to DVD and then capturing the DVD playback in Pinnacle would stop the bouncing issue. And it did. The captures where very smooth. I didn't loose much if any quality from the DVD compression (that was noticable anyways), and the picture quit bouncing during capture, witch was the most important thing to me.

    So using Pinnacle Studio, I captured over 38 hours of SD footage off these DVDs I recorded from VHS. Now, an idea I have for this project is to set up a decent 3 point lighting system, get a lav mic, and do in-between scene on camera interview styel shots with the HV30. Now, here is where I get lost on what I should do for this. Keep in mind, my final media goal is normal DVD

    With the main bulk of the project being SD footage, should I record the interview shots in standard DV off the HV30? Or can I record it in HDV and render the files a certain way for higher quality when it goes to the DVD? I got some tips on another site on how to stretch SD footage to 16:9 simular to Sharp/Magnavox style smart stretch so the picture doesn't look that bad when stretched to 16:9, so I would like the whole project to be in 16:9 with the best possible quality on DVD playback with most of today's TVs being widescreen - if this is a bad idea, please let me know. Keep in mind, this is for family and friends, so I am not looking into broadcast quality on these first projects.

    So how should I shoot the HV30 interview shots? Regulat DV mode with 16:9 enabled? Or in a HDV mode and then render it down to the other SD footage?

    Once all the footage is captured and on the hard drives for editing, I;ll be adding the music, some on screen graphics/text to spruce it up a bit, ect. So I can actualy make it a some what entertaining production with a semi-pro twist to it.

    What prject settings should I be using in my Vegas Project file? Like for de-interlacing, and what not? Is there a certain template I should use that has the correct screen resolution and so on? Or should I make a custom one with the proper settings entered manualy. I have DVD Architech 4.5 for DVD authoring, so I'll be tag teaming these two pieces of software to make this project. And you are suggesting not to use a 1080p HDMI screen for color correcting SD footage? Can I get away with using one for it? Cause I'm not really looking for broadcasting quality on the bulk of my early projects here, just a bit of pop in the color to restore the footage a bit.

    I know this is a lot of ground to cover, but I want to make sure I get this right. If there are any step by step books, pages, ect for Vegas on how to do this, I'd gladly read them. I like to take a lot of pride in my work, and I really get into these things when working on them.

    Thanks again for the help...
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  7. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by liberty610
    So using Pinnacle Studio, I captured over 38 hours of SD footage off these DVDs I recorded from VHS. Now, an idea I have for this project is to set up a decent 3 point lighting system, get a lav mic, and do in-between scene on camera interview styel shots with the HV30. Now, here is where I get lost on what I should do for this. Keep in mind, my final media goal is normal DVD.
    What video format was used to capture this SD material from VHS or the DVD copies? Or does the SD data only exist on the DVDR discs?


    Originally Posted by liberty610
    With the main bulk of the project being SD footage, should I record the interview shots in standard DV off the HV30? Or can I record it in HDV and render the files a certain way for higher quality when it goes to the DVD? I got some tips on another site on how to stretch SD footage to 16:9 simular to Sharp/Magnavox style smart stretch so the picture doesn't look that bad when stretched to 16:9, so I would like the whole project to be in 16:9 with the best possible quality on DVD playback with most of today's TVs being widescreen - if this is a bad idea, please let me know. Keep in mind, this is for family and friends, so I am not looking into broadcast quality on these first projects.
    A great feature of the HDV cameras is you can shoot HDV to tape, but transfer as HDV or standard definition 720x480i DV over IEEE-1394 with the camera handling the downsize in hardware. That way you have an HDV master but can edit DV to DVD without needing to deal with high definition in Vegas. Later you can transfer the material in HDV format for an HD project.

    I suggest you use this feature for your first project. Set an NTSC DV 720x480i Vegas project. Import the camcorder material as DV and the other SD material in whatever format that is (probably MPeg2). Then you are all set to edit to a 720x480i DVD.

    You will use your HV30 camcorder as a bridge to a TV monitor following the instructions in Vegas Help for external monitoring.
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  8. Awesome. Sounds simple enough so far. Everything makes since to this point. Thanks a lot for the reply!

    The SD footage was captured from the DVDRs using the classic RCA video/audio cables into the Pinnacle studio breakout box. I always capture in un-compressed AVI format. So if I add one of these clips to a Vegas timeline and check the properties of the video clip, this is what it reads:

    Video:
    29.970 frams per second
    720x480x24, DV

    Audio:
    48,000Hz, 16 bit stereo, uncompressed

    So if I shoot HD footage on my HV30 and have the camera handle the downgrading, I'll have all DV footage, with a HD master. Something I didn't know until now. I'll look into finding out how to do that. That just made my regular DVD authoring headaches go away, as the 2 formats where confusing me. So thanks a million on that. Should I shoot on the HV30 as just regular HDV or should I have it in HDV30 mode? Since there will be no real motion in the shot, I figured 30p would be a good recording mode.

    Thanks again for the replies man... this is all starting to make since!!!
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  9. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by liberty610
    Once all the footage is captured and on the hard drives for editing, I;ll be adding the music, some on screen graphics/text to spruce it up a bit, ect. So I can actualy make it a some what entertaining production with a semi-pro twist to it.

    What prject settings should I be using in my Vegas Project file? Like for de-interlacing, and what not? Is there a certain template I should use that has the correct screen resolution and so on? Or should I make a custom one with the proper settings entered manualy. I have DVD Architech 4.5 for DVD authoring, so I'll be tag teaming these two pieces of software to make this project. And you are suggesting not to use a 1080p HDMI screen for color correcting SD footage? Can I get away with using one for it? Cause I'm not really looking for broadcasting quality on the bulk of my early projects here, just a bit of pop in the color to restore the footage a bit.
    For a 4x3 DV project use the NTSC DV default template (under New Project).

    For a 16x9 wide DV project use the NTSC wide DV default template (under New Project).

    For an HDV project use the NTSC HDV 1440x1080 default template (under New Project).

    DV project settings are always 720x480i, lower field first and 59.94 fields per second, 29.97 frames per second. Your imported SD material is probably "upper field first" MPeg2. Vegas will handle it.

    When you encode for DVD use the same lower field first 720x480i settings. DVDA will handle the encoded assets.

    I recommend a TV over a computer monitor for quality monitoring. It is almost impossible to calibrate a computer monitor to video spec but you are free to try. Regardless, the final quality check is DVD player to a calibrated TV.
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  10. Thanks Ed. Did you see my last post where I wrote that my SD footage is actualy AVI??
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  11. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by liberty610
    Awesome. Sounds simple enough so far. Everything makes since to this point. Thanks a lot for the reply!

    The SD footage was captured from the DVDRs using the classic RCA video/audio cables into the Pinnacle studio breakout box. I always capture in un-compressed AVI format. So if I add one of these clips to a Vegas timeline and check the properties of the video clip, this is what it reads:

    Video:
    29.970 frams per second
    720x480x24, DV

    Audio:
    48,000Hz, 16 bit stereo, uncompressed
    So that looks like DV-AVI format, not uncompressed. DV-AVI files are about 13GB per hour, uncompressed SD would be about 60GB/hr.

    DV-AVI is lower field first.


    Originally Posted by liberty610
    So if I shoot HD footage on my HV30 and have the camera handle the downgrading, I'll have all DV footage, with a HD master. Something I didn't know until now. I'll look into finding out how to do that. That just made my regular DVD authoring headaches go away, as the 2 formats where confusing me. So thanks a million on that. Should I shoot on the HV30 as just regular HDV or should I have it in HDV30 mode? Since there will be no real motion in the shot, I figured 30p would be a good recording mode.
    See above.

    Avoid "HDV30" 30P mode for now. All your SD material is 720x480i so shoot for that.

    30p will cause more jerkiness in the video for normal playback. It is usually used for special effects editing or web export where progressive has advantage.
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  12. Member edDV's Avatar
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    One other comment on monitoring 480i.

    Computer monitors are progressive so will show both fields for interlace material. Newbies complain about "lines". Computer monitors also have different gamma vs. TV. If you monitor on a CRT TV, you see the interlace video as intended and can easily see levels or reverse field order issues that others won't see until too late when the final DVD is rejected.
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  13. Thanks a lot for the replies man. The filed order was something I wasn't sure about. Now I know.

    I am not sure how to make the Canon HV30 downgrade HDV to SD. In the playback menu, there are options on how to show the footage through the component output. You can select 480i or 1080i. But where it shows the 1394 output, its greyed out and doesn't give me the options to change it.

    I looked in Vegas's capture program, and it doesn't show any options there for changing it either. Any ideas?
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  14. Member edDV's Avatar
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    All this power and versatility makes for confusing settings.

    The HDV camera (regardless or brand) has separate settings for the video camera and for video play. There are also separate still camera menus.

    Video Camera mode:
    Recording Modes (HDV, HDV PF24, HDV PF30, DV normal, DV wide)
    Then for DV you should select SP and 16bit audio.
    I prefer manual audio level control for interviews.


    Video Play menus
    HDV/DV mode will follow the video format on tape.
    If the tape is DV, your settings are similar to a DVD player like wide or 4x3 TV. In addition you have AV recording modes.

    If the tape is HDV format, you can select "DV Output" as
    DV Locked --- forces 720x480i DV out (auto downscale)
    HDV/DV ---- follows tape format.

    Take some time to understand all the settings.
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  15. I understand the settings and what they are as far as DV and HDV. My issue is, I am not seeing anywhere in the menus for anything about this DV lock or anything....I'm not getting any of these options.

    EDIT:
    Nevermind... I had the camera connected to the computer via 1394 while tryign this DV lock, and it wouldn't let me change it. I unplugged it, and then I got the options. Thanks!
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  16. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Remember that if you shoot HDV, the DV out will be 16x9.
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  17. Yea, I know. This is what I was going for actualy. I was just about to post a page for you to look at if you don't mind. On a forum dedicated to the Canon HV series, a user there posted some tricks to strech out the 4:3 footage to 16:9 without making it look terribaly un-natural. I just tested the settings, and it does look good.

    Does this seem like a good idea if I am going for a widescreen DVD?

    http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2007/12/12/
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  18. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by liberty610
    Yea, I know. This is what I was going for actualy. I was just about to post a page for you to look at if you don't mind. On a forum dedicated to the Canon HV series, a user there posted some tricks to strech out the 4:3 footage to 16:9 without making it look terribaly un-natural. I just tested the settings, and it does look good.

    Does this seem like a good idea if I am going for a widescreen DVD?

    http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2007/12/12/
    Yes, fun to play with. You are creatively cropping, stretching your rock footage. This is a good way to learn Vegas features. At HD resolutions you would find your computer grinding to a halt. Best to play and learn with SD video.
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  19. Awesome man. Thanks again. This has helped a great deal for sure.

    I have played with Vegas on and off the past couple years. I know more about audio programs like Acid then I do Vegas. I have done a lot of audio jobs with recording full bands and demos (if interested in hearing my quality, I can post a link). So I know the plugin chains workflow and how they work within Sony programs.

    Having said that, lets say I get all the footage I have captured on the time line. I get all the edits made, so if I play the footage from start to finish, it is basicaly what you would see from start to finish once you hit PLAY on the DVD.

    Whats next? Do I wait until I get everything edited, and then do the color correcting? I don't want to get to in depth just yet, as I don't have all the gear I would need to do it right, but a little color restore is always good.

    I played around with the saturation settings on the color corrector plugin from Sony, and I have the Learn Vegas DVD from the company Class on Demand where host Tim Duncan walks through the entire program, one thing being color correction. He doesn't seem to use a 2nd monitor for smaller projects like what I am going for. And he kinda flies through the process without really explaining what to look for. He some what goes over these graphs that display how much or how little the color on the project is as far as bradcasting quality goes. thats about it.

    So, for just adding a little pop to the color and giving it a little restored look, I just added a little satuartion and played with the color wheels a bit. Turned from almost black and white to a richer feel. A lot of the footage I have jumps around a lot. Like some scenes are shot at one place with daylight, the other in a lower light setting (this is all amature home video type stuff). So should I seperate each clip when the scene changes and color correct each individual clip that has different lighting stuations and what not? That seems to make the most since to me...
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