AVCHD video Transfer and Editing

[glenpinn]

I THINK THIS MIGHT BE IN THE WRONG SECTION ???

hey peeps.

im moving up from Mini DV cam to a HD cam, and really like what i see and read of the panasonic HDC-HS300 that films in AVCHD to card or int 120gb hdd.

i was looking at the canon HF-S100 but it uses removable card media and i need the large hdd storage space offered by the panasonic.

i have had a look at some reviews and looked about in this forum re some info on this cam, and wanted to ask anyone out there if the software that ships with this cam is any good at transferring the footage to my pc, and allow me to do basic cutting and joining etc (ive seen pretty poor reviews of the included software)

if not, what software is recommended for video transfer > cutting > processing etc.

i believe AVCHD is H264 and is very dificult to edit (as opposed to HDV) but im not interested in full on editing using filters etc, just want to be able to chop my footage up and get what i need back together again.

anyone suggest anything.

btw, my main pc is Q6600 @ 3.0ghz, 4gb 800 ram, 1.5TB of hdd space and a HD2400pro graphics card etc etc etc

i will be upgrading my GPU as well, and need some advice on which cards might also be suited.
im also upgrading to 8gb of ram as well.

cheers

[redwudz]

Unless you are running a 64bit OS, 8GB RAM will just give you a extra 4GB that will be inaccessible to a 32bit OS.

You would need a video card that can supply hardware acceleration. Most other video cards have no effect on editing and are just for playback/display.

[glenpinn]

Unless you are running a 64bit OS, 8GB RAM will just give you a extra 4GB that will be inaccessible to a 32bit OS.

You would need a video card that can supply hardware acceleration. Most other video cards have no effect on editing and are just for playback/display.

well i know about the 64bit OS and ram thing, i run Win 7 RC 7100 as my main OS with XP sp3 32bit as my 2nd OS in dual boot.

im after video editing software that i can use to transfer the video to my pc, cut the bits out i dont want, then process the output file.

also, advise me of the best video card for this work.

[872156]

[quote="glenpinn"]

I'm after video editing software that i can use to transfer the video to my pc, cut the bits out i dont want, then process the output file.

I recommend Microsoft Movie Maker.




---------

[redwudz]

You're in the right forum for Camcorders. I've just been waiting for some AVCHD camcorder users to add to this thread. Sometimes it takes a while. But.... standby.

One editor program: Elecard AVCHD Editor. WMM might work, but you may need to use a program like VoltaicHD to convert it to a format that WMM understands.

Meanwhile, what format do you want to use as final output? Blu-ray AVCHD or regular DVD-5 or DVD-9 in MPEG-2 format authored as a DVD?

[minidv2dvd]

video cards don't make much difference for editing and encoding on consumer pc's. anything over a 8600gt is fine. your comp specs will most likely work as is.

for editing/encoding programs the usual, i.e. vegas pro 9 or cs4 premiere pro, if you want pro features. a second monitor is nice if you are really going to do a lot of editing.

i wasn't going to jump in, as i'd just say go with HDV not avchd

[Braindrain]

As I've personally tried the program that ships with Canon, I can tell you it's a humongous waste of time. Just stick your SDHC into your PC and transfer via Windows Explorer. The only thing that will be screwed up is the naming convention, but no biggie.

Once transferred, it would be useful to encode to a lossless intermediate codec (eg. Cineform). Your life will be much less painless when rendering.

Programs mentioned like Vegas Pro 9 and Premiere Pro work fine.

Personally, I took the exact same direction as you. I went from miniDV to AVCHD. Personally, I think the pros with AVCHD far outweigh the cons. I went with the Canon HF200 and got 2 - 16GB SDHC's. 90 min of recording on each and I use the 2nd as a backup card, just in case. I transfer the footage to my PC at the end of each day so storage is never a problem.

[glenpinn]

I recommend Microsoft Movie Maker.

never, no way

NOW for the rest of the posts so far, i kind of decided on this cam because of its big HDD and the format it shoots in, but then realized its quite difficult to edit (professionally) but assumed it would be easy to find something that allows me to transfer the video from the cam to my pc in its original format, then just chop it up and output it back to its original format, in other words, join it back together without re-encoding it.

then i can decide later on what format to convert it to, or leave it as it is.

im walking blind here btw, i have no experience with AVCHD (H264) as i am used to working in dvd format from my mini dv cams, and am currently converting 170 mpeg2 files (family videos) to Xvid with the help of a few kind members in this forum.

as far as HDV goes, is it correct that you cant shoot full HD (1920x1080) in HDV format, and correct that HDV uses either a card or dv tape to shoot onto.

i know with this cam and its onboard 120gb HDD, you can shoot 16 hrs in highest quality, but you have to dump your video from the cam once the hdd is full, and thats ok if your shooting locally where you have access to your own pc to do so, but travelling may well present a problem.

i read over some links in another thread about differences between HDV and AVCHD and also differences between this new HS300 and other cams that shoot in this format, and shoots in HDV, and it is quite confusing to say the least.

anyway, if i do go with this cam, the only editing i want to do (for starters) is to cut/join and output, either to its original format, or to another format, as yet decided.

and there lies another problem, i always believed that H264 was going to become a very popular format, and might become a lot more supported in regards to playback devices such as dvd players, but i still dont think there are very many players that support H264 where many support Xvid/divX etc.

blu-ray, well i dunno either, but i dont want to get a HD cam then down convert the video to standard def DVD format, i might as well keep my 3 SD cams i have right now.

anyway, its an interesting journey to say the least, given im just getting used to Xvid output from SD mpeg2 files.

cheers

[glenpinn]

As I've personally tried the program that ships with Canon, I can tell you it's a humongous waste of time. Just stick your SDHC into your PC and transfer via Windows Explorer. The only thing that will be screwed up is the naming convention, but no biggie.

Once transferred, it would be useful to encode to a lossless intermediate codec (eg. Cineform). Your life will be much less painless when rendering.

Programs mentioned like Vegas Pro 9 and Premiere Pro work fine.

Personally, I took the exact same direction as you. I went from miniDV to AVCHD. Personally, I think the pros with AVCHD far outweigh the cons. I went with the Canon HF200 and got 2 - 16GB SDHC's. 90 min of recording on each and I use the 2nd as a backup card, just in case. I transfer the footage to my PC at the end of each day so storage is never a problem.

ok you just mention you got the canon cam, which only uses a removable card from memory, no int HDD or int flash memory either, and i was worried that 16gb SHHC cards would be far too expensive given they only allow a limited length of video to be filmed onto them, but i wasnt aware a 16gb card held 90 minutes of footage.

the thing i worry about with an int hdd is that it can break, but i can get 16 hrs of top quality video onto it, which is what i like.

isnt there any way to get the footage off the HS300 hdd to my pc using windows explorer, like you can with a card, i assumed there might be, but obviously i need some software to transfer it with.

hows your canon HF-200, i was tossing between a canon HF-S100 and the panny HS300, but not decided 100% yet.

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/ratings.php (1st and 3rd in this ratings war)

[Braindrain]

From what I understand, you can just burn your AVCHD footage onto a Blu-Ray and a Blu-Ray player should play it.

I'm not sure as I don't have a Blu-Ray burner.... yet.

If you want a player, I believe the Western Digital TV plays AVCHD natively.

[glenpinn]

From what I understand, you can just burn your AVCHD footage onto a Blu-Ray and a Blu-Ray player should play it.
I'm not sure as I don't have a Blu-Ray burner.... yet.
If you want a player, I believe the Western Digital TV plays AVCHD natively.

ok i didnt know u can burn the H264 direct to blu-ray disc.

yep my next hdd media player will be one of those West Digital media players, and i already have 2x 1TB ext hdd caddies ready to use with it as the video storage devices.

i currently have 2 noontek hdd players that only play standard def files such as mpeg, Xvid etc, and thats why im keeping my 170 mpeg2 files as they are, and converting them to Xvid as well, so i can keep the storage size down on that noontek player yet still get near mpeg2 quality from them.

btw, i had also considered getting the panny HDC-TM300 which has built in 32gb flash memory and also takes SD/SDHD cards, but i sill want a big int hdd + the SD/SDHD card option, just makes it a lot more flexible i think, which is why i prefer the panny over the canon at the moment.

decisions decisions

BTW guys, should i be concerned about the panasonic cams only doing 17Mbps compared to the canon HF-S100 doing 24Mbps compression ???

[Braindrain]

Personally, I'd take it without the HDD/internal memory. Reasons:

1) With the flashcards, you can replace them if they start flaking.
2) You can't replace HDD/internal memory. Well, maybe you can but I'm sure it's going to be major $$.
3) The cost of 2 - 16GB SDHC (Class 6) cards is well under the premium for 32GB internal memory. You could buy more cards but it's a wash after that.
4) With internal memory, you can ONLY transfer via a USB hookup to the camcorder - extremely slow. With SDHC, just get a cardreader and it's way faster.

As for Panasonic vs Canon, bitrate is only 1 part of the equation. Whether it's a concern is completely up to you.

[minidv2dvd]

glennpinn- HDV is full hd video. it records at 1440x1080, but the pixel shape is non-square, so the actual square pixel equivalent is 1920x1080. just like a 16/9 dvd mpeg-2 is 720x480.

if consumer convenience is your main concern, by all means go with a hard drive or sd card HD cam. just don't come back and whine when it turns out you want to edit the video it makes.

[redwudz]

4)With internal memory, you can ONLY transfer via a USB hookup to the camcorder - extremely slow. With SDHC, just get a cardreader and it's way faster.

Most times a card reader uses the USB port also. But reading the card over USB is likely faster than tryiing to stream the video file over USB to the computer HDD.

[glenpinn]

glennpinn- HDV is full hd video. it records at 1440x1080, but the pixel shape is non-square, so the actual square pixel equivalent is 1920x1080. just like a 16/9 dvd mpeg-2 is 720x480.

if consumer convenience is your main concern, by all means go with a hard drive or sd card HD cam. just don't come back and whine when it turns out you want to edit the video it makes.

m8 i have already posted in several threads saying im not interested in doing any kind of advanced editing apart from cutting bits out of my footage and wanting it joined up again without actually re-encoding the original footage, if its possible with AVCHD, and im aware that even if i did want to, i can convert to another format to do so.

i also realize HDV on tape is full HD video, and that it records at 1440x1080, i just dont want to record to tape any more, so AVCHD is the way im prepared to go, and although the HS300 cam has a 120gb hdd, it also allows for shooting onto sd/sdhd card up to 32gb. the TM300 has an int 32gb flash memory pluse sd/sdhd card only, so that might be an alternative as its cheaper to buy and the savings i get will buy me some 16gb or 32gb cards.

dont worry, im not the sort to ask for advice, then come back bitching that i made the wrong choice, thats why i want to get it right b4 i buy.

cheers

[pippas]

apart from cutting bits out of my footage and wanting it joined up again without actually re-encoding the original footage, if its possible with AVCHD

The software supplied with the Panasonic cameras, HD Writer, can now perform the simple edits you are describing. The earlier versions could only delete whole files, but the new 'AE' version supplied with the model you are considering can, according to the manual, cut out sections from a clip, and even add fades and transitions. So no extra software to buy to do what you want.

Maybe someone else can confirm whether the supplied software with the Canon can do the same?

[Braindrain]

4)With internal memory, you can ONLY transfer via a USB hookup to the camcorder - extremely slow. With SDHC, just get a cardreader and it's way faster.

Most times a card reader uses the USB port also. But reading the card over USB is likely faster than tryiing to stream the video file over USB to the computer HDD.

You're right in that a card reader is via USB. However, if you hook up the camcorder via USB to transfer video, there is the extra step of passing through the camcorder itself. This makes the process extremely slow compared to just sticking it into a card reader.

if consumer convenience is your main concern, by all means go with a hard drive or sd card HD cam. just don't come back and whine when it turns out you want to edit the video it makes.

A little harsh, no? Plenty of people whine about how to even transfer DV video to a computer.

[minidv2dvd]

if consumer convenience is your main concern, by all means go with a hard drive or sd card HD cam. just don't come back and whine when it turns out you want to edit the video it makes.

A little harsh, no? Plenty of people whine about how to even transfer DV video to a computer.

yes, sorry. you are probably right.

[edDV]

Just understand the issues. If you intend to buy an AVCHD cam. Get all your ducks in line and test the workflow first.

Tape may be a pain for some but it works. It also creates an automatic backup.

[glenpinn]

apart from cutting bits out of my footage and wanting it joined up again without actually re-encoding the original footage, if its possible with AVCHD

The software supplied with the Panasonic cameras, HD Writer, can now perform the simple edits you are describing. The earlier versions could only delete whole files, but the new 'AE' version supplied with the model you are considering can, according to the manual, cut out sections from a clip, and even add fades and transitions. So no extra software to buy to do what you want.

Maybe someone else can confirm whether the supplied software with the Canon can do the same?

ok well i will contact panasonic direct and ask them, because i noted at comcorder info site they say the included software isnt very good, so i dont know if that means it cant do fancy editing or what.

it got a rating of 7.5 to 8.0 for software tho, and the canon cams got a poor 2.0 or 3.0 for software

anyway, thanks, all i want to do is chop and join without re-encoding it so i keep the original "cut" footage on my 2 backup mediums.

Tape may be a pain for some but it works. It also creates an automatic backup.

by this, are you referring to using the tape as your archived footage ???
if so, i wouldnt rely on keeping just the 1 tape as your backup, i would also keep another copy on hdd somewhere.
anyway, each to their own, i just dont want tape, and i want AVCHD format, now just to decide on the cam.

cheers

[edDV]

Tape may be a pain for some but it works. It also creates an automatic backup.

by this, are you referring to using the tape as your archived footage ???
if so, i wouldnt rely on keeping just the 1 tape as your backup, i would also keep another copy on hdd somewhere.
anyway, each to their own, i just dont want tape, and i want AVCHD format, now just to decide on the cam.

cheers

By that I mean when you transfer to HDD you work on one copy and still have the tape to revert if a mistake is made. Tapes are cheap enough that people aren't tempted to immediately erase and reuse. This isn't true for expensive SD cards.

Many complain they accidentally erase or damage transferred files on the HDD. Few have the discipline to duplicate the file before use.

I usually backup to a separate external drive when in the field. When I finish editing I also backup the edit master.

[glenpinn]

By that I mean when you transfer to HDD you work on one copy and still have the tape to revert if a mistake is made. Tapes are cheap enough that people aren't tempted to immediately erase and reuse. This isn't true for expensive SD cards.

Many complain they accidentally erase or damage transferred files on the HDD. Few have the discipline to duplicate the file before use.

I usually backup to a separate external drive when in the field. When I finish editing I also backup the edit master.

yep i thought thats what you were referring to.

anyway, in my case (except for the wedding and 2 kids birth/baptism tapes + betacams) i dont have any other tapes as i used all mine approx 3 times to film onto each, then got rid of them (a budding young 18 year old skate videographer used to get them off me)

as soon as i filmed some footage, i transferred it to the hdd in type2 dv-avi and a copy was sent to my original dv-avi footage backup device for storage, and i used another copy to edit and output to dvd compliant mpeg2.

i would then send 1x copy of the edited mpeg2 file onto a dedicated mpeg2 hdd in my file server and 1x copy to my hdd media player for playback on tv.
the original edited mpeg2 stays on a dedicated 500gb family video hdd inside my own pc (it actually sits inside a removable sata tray for easy removal if we ever go away for extended periods of time)

so in all i have 3 copies of every mpeg2 home video file i have (170 files at 165gb total size)

i have also just finished converting those 170 mpeg2 files to Xvid format as well, totaling 115gb in size.

[edDV]

i have also just finished converting those 170 mpeg2 files to Xvid format as well, totaling 115gb in size.

And forced a deinterlace? I hope you kept the DV-AVI and MPeg2 copies.

[glenpinn]

And forced a deinterlace?

i take it your asking me if i deinterlaced them ???

I hope you kept the DV-AVI and MPeg2 copies.

in my previous post i mentioned what i do with all my files, there is absolutely no way im stupid enough to get rid of the originals and just keep the Xvid files

however i know a few people who actually output their video files to Xvid format and did delete all the source files, forever.

[glenpinn]

ok still nothing regarding basic editing tools (cutting and joining) for AVCHD from camera so i have taken this topic to the editing section of the forum, might get some response over there as this topic kind of was in the wrong section anyway.

https://forum.videohelp.com/topic369376.html

at least i found a decent avi splitting tool that reliably frame accurate for all my downloaded standard def Xvid/divX and H-264 files.

Video Edit Master, which i got from this very forum.

[rallymax]

Workflow:
I've found that simply copying the MTS files from the camera over USB or if it has SDHC sticks via a SDHC card reader (I like my SD->ExpressCard reader in my laptop) is the easiest way to get the footage off of the camera.
Editing, as long as it's basic cuts free or cheap software will do the trick.
Any more complicated and you'll need A LOT of processing power (Intel Core 2 Duo 2.2GHz is NOT enough) to be able to scrub back and forth.
Adobe Premiere CS4 added CUDA support to use the GPU from nVidia video cards. I've not tried it but have tried Premiere CS3 with MainConcept's H.264 decoder but never got a workflow to work smoothly. It's encode is slow but does get the job done - about 1:300 ratio (ouch).

If all you want to do is play, CoreAVC's H.264 decoder works GREAT though.

Lastly, you don't need to burn your AVCHD to Blu-Ray. There is a spec that allows you to put HD on DVD with AVCHD material. I'm YET to get that to work properly - after months of trying - so I won't go into details here.
I'm not sure but I think Nero supports the complete AVCHD workflow including burning to DVD in the AVCHD spec that is supported by Blu-Ray players.
Right now I'm trying to skip that step by simply taking the .MTS files and streaming them to my TiVo HD instead using "streambaby" - a TiVo compatible video streamer.

[RonUSMC]

I just wanted to post some info on this thread as I have a similiar camera and have done a lot of testing with the H264/AVC MTS/M2TS files.

Someone earlier mentioned the cards had a 2 gig per file limit, but the HDD doesnt. My Canon HG10 has a 30 gig HD and it also has the 2gig limit. The camera doesnt shut off it just keeps going but behind the scenes it chops them up in 2 gig chunks.

I dont think I can do any editing inside the camera, but it does come with some software to do some editing. http://www.ulead.com.tw/ulead/Survey/campaign/Canon_DMF/member.cfm?FS=US&pg=1

Ulead DVD Factory or something.

One thing I have used is the CoreAVC codec. The main benefit of that is that it takes an intense amount of CPU power from the CPU and transfers it to the GPU. This speeds up encoding and decoding. Core only does decoding.

So, with whichever encoder you prefer... just set it to decode with Core and then encode with your choice, MainConcept, Adobe, whomever.

One thing I have been talking about on the other thread is making them smaller for archiving, but it seems that this is almost worthless without losing quality. The codec I shoot with H264 is already compressed, so taking it down any smaller would just hurt the overall picture more.

If you just drag and drop from the STREAM folder over, you get MTS files... if you use the packaged application, Corel GuideMenu, you get M2TS files without the names after the dates.

[rallymax]

w.r.t CoreAVC... As I said earlier, and as RonUSMC has noted, CoreAVC is a great H.264 decoder - especially now that it has nVidia CUDA support (off-loading the decode to the GPU instead of the CPU as Ron noted).

Anyhow as a second datapoint on HD playback...
I have an older machine (Dell Dimension 8400)
WinXP SP3 + CoreAVC (old version with CPU only) SUCCESS
WinXP SP3 + MainConcept H.264 decoder in Adobe. FAIL
To my surprise....
Windows 7 RC v7100 out-of-the-box SUCCESS!!!!

My point is that it seems that Microsoft has written or purchased a really good H.264 decoder. I don't know if it is using the CUDA (I have a nVidia 9400 in that machine).

Back on the topic of AVCHD editing....
Has anyone tried
Adobe Premiere Pro CS4 + nVidia QUADRO card (inc. RapiHD H.264 decode + encoder)??? ( http://www.rapihd.com )

With Windows 7 playing back H.264 natively I'm now wondering if Adobe CS3 Premiere Pro will simply play without the MainConcept plugin??? - testing is needed to see if Win7 includes a H.264 encoder.
- I'll do a test tonight to find out.

[rallymax]

I have made a new thread over in Editing talking about AVCHD workflow from camcorder to Adobe Premiere Pro CS3 and CS4.

https://forum.videohelp.com/topic370612.html

[rallymax]

So, with whichever encoder you prefer... just set it to decode with Core and then encode with your choice, MainConcept, Adobe, whomever.

Hi Ron,

how did you make CoreAVC work as the decoder in Premiere?