Puzzling behavour encoding from DV to Mpeg2

[DB83]

I have put this on the Ulead forum as it concerns Media Studio 7 but the answer may be a more general one.

I have some DV source clips which I put into a DV project to edit and then encode to MPEG. However, whatever data-rate I selected for the mpeg the encode was always at 8000 kbps.

However, if I put the same DV source clips into a MPEG project to edit and then encode to MPEG the encode is done at the correct selected data-rate.

Is there something specific about DV that means it will only encode at 8000 kbps if you are specifically editing DV in the NLE whereas if you fool the editor into thinking it is editing MPEG clips then it will encode at whatever data-rate you desire.

[PuzZLeR]

Nope. You can encode DV to MPEG-2 with bitrates other than 8Mbps.

I believe it's the editor's settings that are wrong. Keep in mind, editors aren't necessarily flexible or good MPEG-2, or anything, encoders. They can encode, but this feature is really only available for the sake of completion to add overall value, not because it's any good.

For best results, you should smart render your DV and use a separate stand-alone MPEG-2 encoder for the final product.

Then again, I don't use MS7, but I will use VideoStudio for DV. Even so, I import clips at project settings and smart render the result. When I want DvD/MPEG-2, I drop that into my encoder separately since I don't like how VS encodes MPEG-2 (which applies to most editors).

Good stand-alone MPEG-2 encoders that yield great quality and give you good control over the settings are CCE, TMPEGEnc, MainConcept and ProCoder. An excellent free one is HC Encoder.

Then you can drop the encoded MPEG-2 stream into any one of several DvD author tools for the disc.

[Braindrain]

As Puzzler said, render to DV-AVI output and use a stand-alone encoder. The built-in encoder in Videostudio is crap. Really.

[PuzZLeR]

As Puzzler said, render to DV-AVI output and use a stand-alone encoder. The built-in encoder in Videostudio is crap. Really.

I would say that VS as an encoder GUI is crap, not necessarily the built-in encoder which is/was from MainConcept. I'm not sure if they still have MC, but even when they did, the results were still crap.

VS is a very good editor but it does something to the frames along the way when encoding the final result, regardless of how good the internal engine is under the hood. The settings just don't work well, even when enabling the advanced options. Even frame-serving to another encoder just didn't produce good results either.

I would not be surprised if MS7 is plagued with similar problems.

I haven't checked to see if any of them improved upon this in recent editions since I don't care now. I'm very happy just quickly smart rendering the edited content and having better control and quality with CCE's settings towards the final encoded stream.

I believe editors are editors, never encoders (just like the fact that it isn't a good idea to mess with editing features within an encoder either). Let both do the job they were designed for separately.

Encoding tools offered by editors are just available as ambitious token features for "completeness", or for the lazy IMO.

[DB83]

Thnx for the input here.

I am currently appraising CCE and tmpgenc.

From my point of view, I never had a quality issue with MSP7 and certainly no complaints from the people who viewed the final results. But this is the first time I am using DV as a source as in the past I did mpeg2 transcodings using the capture component via my Canpous ADVC and was now curious to see if DV >> mpeg2 via the editor and then encoding as against editing the mpeg2 (I know it's not completely accurate that way although it seemed to be ok) and then encoding that again [shouts of quality loss ring through my ears ]

At the moment, CCE does seem to have the edge (atleast on the current source) both in quality and speed.

[ron spencer]

try HCEnc

[DB83]

try HCEnc

I would but (please do not laugh at this old guy) how can you make a d2v file from dgindex when that only seems to accept mpeg sources ? kinda defeats the object.

And as for making an avs (script).............

[Jim44]

try HCEnc

I would but (please do not laugh at this old guy) how can you make a d2v file from dgindex when that only seems to accept mpeg sources ? kinda defeats the object.

And as for making an avs (script).............

It's really not that hard. If you're not doing any filtering, simply:

AviSource("my-dv-video.avi")

That's all there is (AFAIK) to get a script to read in your DV into HCEnc (I start started checking it out recently, after being a long time TMPGEnc user). Certainly Avisynth is very powerful, but if all you need is a method to get the video into HCEnc, it's pretty straight-forward (I've been using Avisynth to do some fairly simple resizing/filtering for a while now).

Hope that helps.

[PuzZLeR]

Alot of encoders don't natively decode MPEG video. I won't get into detail but many formats in AVI are acquisition formats (creation/capture/source/etc) while MPEG is meant to be a deliverable format (for playback, etc).

The mindset is to encode acquisition formats, not deliverable formats (which are already supposed to have been "encoded" or would need intermediary files or codecs, etc). You can still encode MPEG, but you'd have to index it - in other words create a simulation of it much like an acquisition format - and d2v is that method.

But even many of the encoders that accept MPEG directly actually do index it as well, only it's done automatically and internally for you, not lucidly requiring it like CCE or HC Encoder do.

That's the way I see it and understand it. Hopefully an "old guy" like you can at least appreciate the process a little better now.

[DB83]

'Old guy' here again.

So I fired up HC and whatever DV (Type 1) file I try to load via the script gives me the same error. I attach a screen grab which shows the file 'captured' with the Canopus ADVC300 using MediaStudio7 (I have no problems editing these files) under gspot, the script and HC showing the error. Even if I re-encode a small part of these files with MSP7 I still get the same error.

CCE accepted this file with no complaints and successfully encoded the 3 minutes (evaluation version)[/img]

[manono]

Install Cedocida and see if that helps.

Edit: I see it's a Type 2 DV AVI codec. Maybe it won't help.

[PuzZLeR]

CCE is usually very good with AVI directly - formats, color spaces, codecs, etc., because it does alot of the internal work for you.

For HC Encoder, you'd need to do it manually. Try this - after your "AVISource(...)" line add:

ConvertToYV12()

I bet this is getting better all the time for you.

[DB83]

CCE is usually very good with AVI directly - formats, color spaces, codecs, etc., because it does alot of the internal work for you.

For HC Encoder, you'd need to do it manually. Try this - after your "AVISource(...)" line add:

ConvertToYV12()

I bet this is getting better all the time for you.

You missed the point in my previous message.

HC will not even load the DV.

[Safesurfer]

Have you tried using DirectShowSource instead of AVISource in your script?

[DB83]

Have you tried using DirectShowSource instead of AVISource in your script?

Thank you ! It finally accepted the file.

I also needed "ConvertToYV12()" in the script. HC prompted me to add this.

Another program to evaluate now.

[Jim44]

Ahh, sorry about the misleading "AviSource" - I realized I was testing with an Xvid file, not a DV-AVI. My bad.

Glad you got it to work, though.

[manono]

I also needed "ConvertToYV12()" in the script. HC prompted me to add this.

If it's DV AVI then it's interlaced, right? So you'll want to add:

ConvertToYV12(Interlaced=True)

instead.

[jagabo]

If you're using Cedocida you can force it to output only YV12 in interlaced MPEG 2 format. Still, I'd prefer to have it output YUY2 and convert to interlaced YV12 in AviSynth.

[PuzZLeR]

CCE is usually very good with AVI directly - formats, color spaces, codecs, etc., because it does alot of the internal work for you.

For HC Encoder, you'd need to do it manually. Try this - after your "AVISource(...)" line add:

ConvertToYV12()

I bet this is getting better all the time for you.

You missed the point in my previous message.

HC will not even load the DV.

Errr... no I didn't:

So I fired up HC and whatever DV (Type 1) file I try to load via the script gives me the same error. I attach a screen grab which shows the file 'captured' with the Canopus ADVC300 using MediaStudio7 (I have no problems editing these files) under gspot, the script and HC showing the error. Even if I re-encode a small part of these files with MSP7 I still get the same error.

Where did I miss it? You're talking about loading a DV file via the script.

At any rate:

Safesurfer wrote:
Have you tried using DirectShowSource instead of AVISource in your script?


Thank you ! It finally accepted the file.

I also needed "ConvertToYV12()" in the script. HC prompted me to add this.

Another program to evaluate now.

Glad to see it did work for you once you've adjusted your script.

Now that you're learning AviSynth, it wouldn't also hurt you to experiment with a few filters to enhance your video: deblock, sharpen, change colors, add grain, etc., which could add more value than what your editor can provide. You've entered into a whole new world here.

[PuzZLeR]

Ahh, sorry about the misleading "AviSource" - I realized I was testing with an Xvid file, not a DV-AVI. My bad.

Not misleading to me. AviSource works also with DV-AVI.

[DB83]

Ahh, sorry about the misleading "AviSource" - I realized I was testing with an Xvid file, not a DV-AVI. My bad.

Not misleading to me. AviSource works also with DV-AVI.

Pray tell me how then. See my earlier post and the screen grabs.

But then my DV may not be like your DV as it was 'captured'/'converted' through an ADVC and uses a DirectShow Capture Plugin.

Maybe the 'old guy' knows more than you give him credit. He just does not speak that 'avs' language and needs some assistance there.

But, for me, this thread is now closed as I have 3 or 4 different programs to evaluate and can then select the best one for this particular job.

[jagabo]

DirectshowSource() uses DirectShow decoders. AviSource() uses VFW decoders (VFW is older video subsystem still supported by Windows but deprecated by Microsoft). Windows comes with a Directshow DV decoder (qdv.dll) so DirectshowSource() doesn't require that you install a DV decoder. To use AviSource() on a DV AVI you must have previously installed a VFW DV decoder like Cedocida or Panasonic DV codec (do not use the latter, it's old and full of bugs).

[PuzZLeR]

@DB83: No disrespect mate. Your pic does show a script as well as you mentioning script so I followed up as such. Glad to see you're on your way at any rate.

I also use DV type 2 but do have DV VFW codecs installed on my system, so AviSource works for me. Thanks for the comments Jagabo.