Panasonic AG-1980P vs JVC HR-S9800 / SR-V10U

[lordsmurf]

This is a short post.

In general, the JVC gives a better quality image, especially when the various filters are engaged. Filter-less, the Panasonic plays cleaner.

Recently, however, I've come across a batch of tapes that were recorded about 10 years ago, SP mode, on a JVC HR-S9800U VCR, in SP mode plain VHS, from digital output. The tapes show heavy chroma errors in my SR-V10U without TBC, modest ones in the 9800. Both are clean with TBC. However, the tapes jitter with the TBC engaged, because the recording deck was apparently going out of alignment at the time. The errors aggravates the line TBC in the JVCs. The AG-1980P is pretty much spotless, without the TBC, no chroma flaws -- even better than JVC + TBC.

This is the first time I've seen the Panasonic outperform the JVC in image quality. It's usually only superior in SLP tracking (but not always).

Sometimes your tapes will determine what machine(s) you need.

[orsetto]

I have noticed this myself, and other members have commented occasionally but not as specifically as you do here. Most of us would agree this post confirms your previous general-purpose advice, to the effect no one VCR will cover all the bases. Particularly at the high-end, there are really only two basic designs with TBC/DNR that were ever mfr'd: JVC or Panasonic. Each is biased to perform better with certain types of tape issues that the other can't play well, ideally one should have both on hand if the project involves a large number of random tapes. A couple years ago the Panasonic was excessively overpriced second-hand compared to the JVCs, because it was a rare-ish one-off model in hot demand. Today, eBay is flooded with them and decent-condition AG1980s are easily found in the $100-150 range. Those interested in adding an AG1980 to their VCR rack might also seek out the Panasonic AG5710: this was the virtually unknown "pro" sister model to the AG1980, it is identical except it lacks a tuner. The AG5710 sometimes pops up for sale at lower prices than the AG1980, because sellers/buyers have no idea that its actually just a tunerless AG1980, not some weird pro model.

Be careful not to confuse these with the lookalike earlier AG1970: that older unit has a different type of TBC/DNR and is not as "universally" good as the AG1980, AG5710 or the JVCs. The old AG1970 is an excellent, sturdy VCR in its own right, but tends to have a noisier image output and lacks the near-magical TBC performance of the other models. It does have the advantage of wide-range sharpness/detail controls, which can juice up some otherwise murky tapes that play like mud on the AG1980 or the JVCs.

[robjv1]

I've still been afraid to fork out money for an AG1980 on eBay. All the fun is getting sucked out of eBay with all this "Buy It Now" nonsense, which are always at inflated prices far above what the item would go for in auction. I just worry that a lot of them are well-worn decks. I do notice that a lot of places on there are offering "warranties" which is somewhat comforting, though I do wonder about the truthfulness of their statements. It's just too bad there are no newer generation equivalents of the older Panasonic decks, the way that there are newer alternatives (D-VHS, Mitsubishi) for the older JVC decks. I wouldn't worry so much about it if there were more places around my area that still serviced VCRs, but it's been my experience (at least with certain JVC decks) that if you take anything other then the regular run of the mill deck in there, they insist you send it off to their service facility. Then again that could just be my own personal experience with my local service centers.

Does anyone know of any place with a good reputation that you can ship pro or prosumer decks to for repairs?

I recently acquired a SR-W5U deck in much better condition then my first deck and I am amazed at how stable the transport seems to be. It does a great job even with my problem EP tapes (especially when paired with the Panasonic ES10 for filtering) that had all kinds of issues before.

The picture seems quite a bit better then the other JVC models I've tried (SR-V101US and HR-7600U) with noticably added sharpness and clarity. I'm sure part of that is attributed to the fact that I no longer have to run it through an external TBC though.

[orsetto]

The JVC SR-W5U is a vanishingly rare ultra-high-end vcr. Properly functioning, it blows all other JVCs and the Panasonic AG1980 into the weeds. If your SR-W5U is working correctly, you have no need to supplement it with any other vcr: the SR-W5U is that rarest of the rare, a "one size fits all" deck that will track and improve any tape you throw at it. It combines the best of the JVC and Panasonic mechanical and electronic virtues. Which should be expected, considering it originally sold for over $3000! You are fortunate indeed to own one.

I would not worry unduly about a used AG1980 being defective: second hand AG1980s don't deteriorate as often as second hand JVCs, and the AG 1980 is very easily repaired by any competent VCR mechanic. Thousands were in use by wedding videographers and college AV studios, they are well-understood by service shops. The AG1980 was also a single one-off semi-pro model of reasonably consistent quality control in its lifetime, which ups your odds. JVCs came in a plethora of models over many more years, some of which were no better than $80 throwaways with TBC/DNR added, and some drift very badly in the mechanics: one has to shop a little bit more carefully for a JVC to avoid getting a worn one.

BTW, the reason you are seeing more "Buy It Nows" than auctions on eBay lately is that eBay has lost its frigging mind and is actively discouraging auctions recently in favor of Buy It Nows. Its all part of some insane Wall Street toadying, because the stock market in its infinite stupidity is pressuring eBay to become the next Amazon. You'd think it might have occurred to eBay that Wall Street definitively proved it has its head up its ass this year, but no: current management is in a pandering frenzy. If you see a VCR you like at a Buy It Now you consider excessive, see if the seller is accepting "Best Offers": I have scored a couple of nice VCRs by making offers near the end of a listing.

[robjv1]

Excellent points Orsetto.

Yes it does seem to be a one size fits all VCR, but given my track record with electronics, I am not (ok, ok, no longer) foolish enough to own only one VCR, especially one that I doubt anybody has the parts to fix. The AG-1980/AG5710 sounds like a solid backup. To your point about them being ubiquitous, I can remember having a slew of AG-1970s in a video production class at my high school, so Panasonic seems a safer bet for a backup VCR then does JVC (and I already have two JVCs anyways).

eBay used to be the best! You could get anything at a fair price from those in the know and at a fire-sale price from those who had no idea what they owned. What worries me about these folks that collect all this stuff and try to pass it off at ridiculously high prices, is eventually they will decide it's not worth the monthly relisting fee and pull their items and dump them.

Just a side note, but my FAVORITE thing about the JVC SR-W5U deck is that it hides hi-fi noise better then any other deck I've used thus far, but not at the expense of the fidelity. I don't know how it does it, but I read something in the manual about the audio head being made out some kind of special material to achieve this. I hate having to record the regular linear mono track due to the noise on the hi-fi track and in fact, I have had to redo a number of conversions because I later noticed certain parts of the footage had issue with it. In some tapes, I have even gone so far as to get multiple versions of a tape and use the second to supplement the bad audio parts and then dub it in using MPEG Video Wizards frame accurate editing.

[lordsmurf]

In some tapes, I have even gone so far as to get multiple versions of a tape and use the second to supplement the bad audio parts and then dub it in using MPEG Video Wizards frame accurate editing.

Same here.

Kudos to you picking up on this helpful restoration method. Most people never think of it.

[1junpei]

In general, the JVC gives a better quality image, especially when the various filters are engaged. Filter-less, the Panasonic plays cleaner.

Is normal, the Panasonic AG-1980P is older, right?

Do you know what is the Pal version of the JVC HR-S9800? Or a clone?

[lordsmurf]

JVC PAL equiv to the 9800U is the 8965EK. I have the 7800U/7600U equiv, the 7965EK.

The 1980P is older, yes.

[1junpei]

Thanks ^ ^

A guy offered me a JVC HR-S7722, do you know if it's good?
I think that it has TBC.

[danno78]

I have this model. It is just 7600 with some small desing changes and made around 2001. It perform like every JVC with DigiPure. Lack Video Stabilizer and Dynamic Drum. This features can be found only in the best model made by JVC.

[lordsmurf]

I'd say the dynamic drum is important to have.

[1junpei]

What does the Dynamic Drum?
And is this feature only in the JVC HR-S8965EK?

[lordsmurf]

It plays SLP/EP mode tapes better. If you don't have any of those, then it may not be a big issue.

[1junpei]

No, I don't need it.
And what is the difference between Video Stabilizer and TBC?

[danno78]

From www.digitalfaq.com:

Video Stabilizer. This is a very nifty feature for tapes that have a hard time playing in other VCRs or have tracking issues that cause the tapes to bounce. This is a kind of bounce or jitter that is due to the physical aspects of the tapes, and cannot be corrected by a TBC. It must be corrected at the playback level, and this feature provides a solution to that error. The only disadvantage of this feature is that it cannot be used in conjunction with the built-in TBC/DNR filter. If turned on while TBC/DNR is enabled, it will first shut off that feature before initializing the stabilization filters.

Read more about JVC features on this page:
http://www.digitalfaq.com/guides/video/capture-playback-hardware.htm

[Bix]

Video Stabilizer is definitely one of the cooler JVC features. It's saved many a tape for me.

As many others have said, if you can afford it (possibly by finding good deals - I got my Go Video SDV-650, the JVC 9800 clone, brand new for about $150 shipped a few years ago, and the AG1980 used for about $60 shipped several months ago), it's best to have a JVC and a Panasonic. Besides the pluses of having two different high-end VCRs' tracking systems, they each have their own advantages over the other:

JVC has Video Stablilizer to help with jitter that the TBC doesn't fix, and Audio Monitor (I think the Panasonic has this too in some form but it's easier to use here), as well as on-screen menus for most tasks.

Panasonic has the soft -> sharp picture slider (much more effective than you might expect, especially compared to similar dials on older consumer VCRs), noise reduction that works much better than JVC's on 2nd generation or worse dubs, and a B&W switch so you get a more "pure" signal on black & white tapes. There's also the dropout compensation, which is a positive for obvious reasons but also adds small white sparkles at times.

[1junpei]

So, the Video Stabilizer is better than TBC/DNR to correct jitters?

[Bix]

So, the Video Stabilizer is better than TBC/DNR to correct jitters?

Some types of jitter, especially from physical problems with the tape, yes.

[themaster1]

Probably for difficult tapes.I got a jvc model and it don't have this feature so it must be present on the latest models only, the 9XXX series.

[Bix]

I've even seen it on a cheap consumer JVC VHS VCR, but that version doesn't work nearly as well and adds a lot of weird interference to the picture. It's strange that it was included in there.

[fuzzblaster]

Hi, I have hours and hours of Raw footage from my NYC Public Access TV show shot on the Panasoinc AG 450. Most camera masters are S-VHS and some VHS tapes. Several tapes have been edited on pro eqipment, I also want to copy those. I need a deck to play the tapes into my DVD recorder and also to edit in Sony Vegas. I have a Canopus 110 for capture. I could use the camera but I need to scan the tapes and shuttle is slow. There were also some tracking issues so some of the tapes have jitters. The cameras heads might not be the best thing to use as a deck.

I have heard that the panasonic AG 1980 is a great choice and the TBC might help correct some problem tapes. They are also both Pansasonic.

However, others have stated the the AG 1980 might not be the best choice. That most of the ones on ebay have been used to death. Even though they are workhorses I would imagine hours and hours of use would take thier toll. Also some say the 1980 shows too much detail and I might be better off with high end JVC consumer model. I'm looking to spend under $200 or even less. I would greatly appriciate any feedback you have on this issue.

By the way, this isn't spam to get anyone to watch, but here is a sample of my public access program, pretty funny, huh!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZW_lEEhmQk

Best video deck to play S-VHS tapes shot on a Panasonic AG 450

[lordsmurf]

What brand of tape are the S-VHS masters shot on? (Yes, this does make a difference.)

[fuzzblaster]

Wow, You really know your stuff. Glad I found this forum. Mostly Fuji High quality Svhs I think. I'll have to look at the others. I know I was buying "master quality" prosumer tapes I suppose, because it said that on the box. But mostly Fuji. Maybe some Maxell, I will have to look when I'm home in a few days. I'll get back to you, however if you have any advice for the Fuji's I'm all ears. I think I tried to get the best "consumer" high grade tapes whatever I used.

Thanks so much. This is important footage to me. Indy docs, great shots of NYC in early 90's and some killer interviews.

[lordsmurf]

Maxell is JVC candy. Yum, yum, yum -- tape is eaten. I don't understand it. I've seen it dozens (hundreds?) of times in the past 10-15 years. Don't put a Maxell S-VHS tape in a JVC deck if you want it back in one piece. You been warned.

Fuji is good. I'd run Fuji's through the JVC.

Did you read the VCR Buying Guide (S-VHS, D-VHS, Professional) post? Be sure to give that a look.

Any forum I use is a good forum.

Need to know brands on consumer tapes, too. Some so-called "high grade" tapes were really total crap.
Fujifilm, for example -- terrible VHS blanks. You'd be better off with standard grade Sony tapes.

[astro1]

Yeah, have to agree with orsetto, the W5 or H5 (for Japanese model), has the best output I've ever seen from NTSC VHS. I sure wish they made a PAL model, but no luck. I'm still trying to find the best PAL equivalent. I want to get equivalent quality output from my PAL tapes as the W5/H5 can produce from NTSC tapes, if that's possible. I wouldn't mind some feedback, if say price was no object, which player would get the nod?

[Deter]

The AG1980 Units have tons of problems with them, and it very rare to get one that doesn't need repairs. Worst off the AVG. consumer has no idea what these problems are or the effects they can cause to the video. For example a color shift problem. I have had 11 AG 1980 units, everyone one needed to repair in some way. Each unit also gives a different type of picture quality on the play back.

The JVC units, I really have not had any problems with them working. Even testing out a few different units, they tend to play the tapes pretty close to each other.

It really depends on the video tape on which of these units are better. Standard issue SVHS/TBC/DNR JVC vs AG1980's, the tape errors and tracking are going to be almost the same. (I have tested this out a lot) However on the JVC decks, it tends to blur out some of the tracking or picture damage, you can still see it. Also have a freak of nature AG 1980, which tracks tapes totally different than any machine I have, it even track a tape perfect which I sent to lord smurf, which he couldn't fix with every one of his VCR's.

I like the AG1980 picture to be honest, it does have a bit more of chroma bleeding than the JVC decks. On some of my older tapes the JVC deck tends to really blur the picture were the AG1980 brings them to life. The picture on playback is also different. The JVC decks tend to play back in a different apect ratio than the AG1980's. The AG1980 units have a fuller picture were the JVC picture seems to be more cropped. The audio is pretty close, but the AG units wins slightly in this department.

Some tapes don't look that good in the AG unit and played back in a JVC deck, they look amazing. You need both...

Now I have upgraded to higher end units (meaning industrial) The $3,000 to $7,000 VCR's, from the mic outputs to the TBC's and general filters you get the best possible picture & sound out of a VCR. The biggest difference is in the chroma & luna channels. Their is really no bleeding and they look really good. Than the sound is 10x better than any normal VCR, from the MIC outputs to the audio tracking.

Side note:
I just got in a broken JVC BR-S622-DXU, not sure if I can fix this unit cause the mother board may be fried. However I took the VCR apart and it has 14 expansion slots, with cards in those slots. The VCR weights like 60 to 70lbs. From the insides it looks like a computer. The unit also has a digital frame drop out compensator. If I get this thing fixed, I'll post back some of the results. It will play VHS-C tapes, which is cool, actually have a few of them.

[orsetto]

The AG1980 Units have tons of problems with them, and it very rare to get one that doesn't need repairs.

Very true. OTOH, the AG1980 (and its twin the AG5710) were deliberately designed for regular servicing, with sensible adjustment points. The basic chassis remained unchanged for more than a decade. The main reason so many are worn out now is that 90% of original owners were pros who used them 24/7 - your odds of finding a "cherry" JVC are much greater, although even a mint JVC can bite you with hidden problems.

The JVC units, I really have not had any problems with them working.

You have been very lucky with your second-hand JVC ventures. Most are tape eaters, and the ones that do not obviously munch your tapes will do other damage to them that you may not notice until you play the tape again or in another VCR. Treat ANY used JVC very very gingerly: use only tapes you can afford to sacrifice for initial testing during the first two weeks. This applies more to the SVHS units, the later DVHS have a redesigned transport which is less troublesome.

Even testing out a few different units, they tend to play the tapes pretty close to each other.

Again this is unusual good luck. Of all brands, consumer JVCs tended to have the least consistent tracking: you could buy two brand new, one serial number apart, and they would not track each others tapes correctly (esp the hifi audio- ugh).

It really depends on the video tape on which of these units are better. [...] Some tapes don't look that good in the AG unit and played back in a JVC deck, they look amazing. You need both...

Absolutely agree. Unless every single tape in your collection was recorded on the same VCR, and that VCR did not drift over the years, you could need to try a dozen different VCRs before you find a good match for some really difficult tapes.

Now I have upgraded to higher end units (meaning industrial) The $3,000 to $7,000 VCR's, from the mic outputs to the TBC's and general filters you get the best possible picture & sound out of a VCR. The biggest difference is in the chroma & luna channels. Their is really no bleeding and they look really good. Than the sound is 10x better than any normal VCR, from the MIC outputs to the audio tracking.

This is a dangerous route I don't recommend unless the person has a LOT of storage space to house big, heavy, mostly-useless old VCRs. These retired "pro" workhorses look very exciting, and you'd assume the original price is a good indicator of quality. But it ain't necessarily so. I have worked with these monsters in professional suites back in the day, and in every case they were used ONLY with tapes they made themselves, or tapes made on similar machines. If we had to incorporate tapes sourced from consumer VCRs in a project, we always kept an AG1980 or even a cheap crappy Sears on hand as initial playback source. The big $5000 pro decks usually had no LP or EP playback and their SP video heads and support electronics were not optimized for consumer SP recordings: at best, if all planets aligned, it was a wash (you got nice TBC and DNR cleaning which just barely compensated the extra noise added by the incompatible heads and electronics). At worst, you got a pretty crummy picture from the big beasts (one of the reasons VHS news footage taken by amateurs would look ten times worse when broadcast than it did in the videographers own home).

I just got in a broken JVC BR-S622-DXU, not sure if I can fix this unit cause the mother board may be fried. However I took the VCR apart and it has 14 expansion slots, with cards in those slots. The VCR weights like 60 to 70lbs. From the insides it looks like a computer. The unit also has a digital frame drop out compensator.

See above: appearances can be deceiving. The pro gear is SO appealing, with all the expansion slots, heavy-duty construction, pro connections, arcane PC interfaces, meters, etc. But it isn't optimized for consumer-recorded tapes, which use some notably different recording techniques. A pro deck will play consumer tapes, but not necessarily any better than a Quasar you picked up for $15 at a thrift shop. There are exceptions of course, but not often enough to be worth the risk. Paying $200 for a VCR that cost $7000 fifteen years ago seems like a steal, but isn't unless you just enjoy the pride of ownership and can afford to throw away $200 on a display piece. For daily, predictable transfer use invest the $200 in a refurbished Panasonic AG1980 or a nice clean JVC or Mitsubishi DVHS.

[sanlyn]

More good info, orsetto. No way I could ever affod the big guys, and I've avoided consumer JVC's, having gone thru a few of them in rapid order. They ran just long enough to destroy some tapes. Thanks to your advice I've collected 3 Panasonics to help transfer of my last 200 VHS tapes (these are the dreaded 6- and 8-hour mementos I've been saving for last): Panasonic PV-4651, PV-4662, PV-4664, and one pristine PV-8661 that seems atypically well-playing and just won't give up. I must've made lucky picks on eBay; not one of these has given me a problem...so far.

[fuzzblaster]

Hi....I started this thread a while ago. It seems to have been resurrected. I got a really clean JVC s9800 with the help of Lord Smurf's advice (Mr. Smurf....are you still there?)

I've had nothing but amazing results with it. There were long discussions about which edit mode to use when digitizing, and whether to leave the TBC on or off (or that it's not a real TBC). I'll have to look at the old thread. I think I used Edit mode with the TBC on.....can anyone confirm that. I want to start some digitizing soon and I don't even remember.

It's been maybe a year since my massive digitizing endeavor and got almost all my VHS-SVHS tapes digitized. I had the machine cleaned and serviced professionally. I asked the tech guy (an old Chinese man who runs one of the last mom and pop vcr/tv repair shops in NYC where I live). Seems very honest and knowledgeable. I asked him after it was cleaned would it be good to run tape through it now and then to keep things moving, or can I let it sit there for a year without using it. He said "I could just let it sit there and not use it and when you use it, it will work fine". Not using, no wear and tear.....but could it be like a car....you need to run it every now and then to keep things moving.?

Any answer would be helpful.

On the JCV machine the S vhs tapes look really good

[lordsmurf]

I'm here. (But I'm mostly here these days.)

A car is mechanical and has fuel, oils, grease, air pressure, etc. While a VCR has some grease, it's mostly unaffected by lack of use. It's not really a fair comparison.

The AG-1980P has a lot of flaws. Panasonic in general does. I don't have the time tonight to document them, but I think it's time I do so. I'll contact deter and 2-3 others, compare notes, and write up an authoritative listing with some samples (where available). The TBC can be a serious problem, too. The best thing about the Panasonic is the transport.