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  1. Member dzsoul's Avatar
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    I use FAVC, how can i set whether interlace or progressive?

    I use FAVC in opening 2-3 movies to compress them then I use TMPGEnc to make a menu with the Working Folder.

    I just noticed that if I make a DVD using FAVC with 2 movies, then selecting the Half-d1 resolution there - if i open them with TMPGEnc in each track I can see that the default is Interlace and one of the movie or both of them becomes shaky...what i mean is that if i test them by playing in my computer, either PowerDVD or Windows media or nero showtime, the movie is shaky, Even before I open them with TMPGEnc.

    If i set it to progressive TMPGEnc will reencode it because the converted files are really interlace. Example, if TMPGEnc offers it as interlace, and if i leave it like that, when i start making the output, it will just make things into a DVD format and would only take about 15 minutes. If i make it to progressive, it will reencode the whole movie and it takes about an hour to finish things up.

    If I put 3 movies for one DVD, still using FAVC with the VCD resolution - opening them with TMPGEnc, the default is progressive.

    That is what i notice.

    Why is that? What should i do?
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  2. my instinct says, don't use half-D1 resolution, it's likely TMPGenc has it's own ideas about half-D1, hence the interlacing.

    stick with D1, it is the DVD default, and will work in a DVD player regardless of age or updates, or later issues, etc. the reason you choose Half-D1 or VCD is size/quality/bitrate concerns, i.e. to fit more onto a DVD. IMO, if you want to squeeeze 3-4hrs into a DVD (or just a DVD5) , you're doing it wrong.

    it's very doable, but 3 hours is a bit beyond 720x480 in mpeg2, you end up pushing the average bitrate just too low to make anything look good (i.e. around 2mbit, when it should be 3-5mbit or even 6-8mbit)

    if you are going to use D1 i.e. 720x480 / 720x576, set the max bitrate to 4000-5000 for a 3-4 hour DVD. the encoder will know how to make 1 video fit the size if you have 8000 or 9800 there, but by adjusting the max, it will help if there's more than one video on the disc.

    also, while FAVC is great for the encoding part, it doesn't always hit the right sizes for DVD, a bit of tweaking is usually necessary with the encoder, and i usually stick with HC, it's flashier IMO, but i don't think it changes anything.
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  3. Member dzsoul's Avatar
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    so if i put 2 movies in one DVD5 i should tick full-d1 and lowering the bitrate? and if it will be 3 movies i would select VCD?

    This procedure is being suggested here by someone in this forum....I really don't have much problems in my results but it's just that if i choose half-d1 with 2 movies, ONE of the two is shaky when i try to play it in my computer (Windows Media Player/Nero Showtime/PowerDVD), EVEN BEFORE i open them with TMPGEnc. AND when I open them with TMPGEnc, the default is interlace.

    An example is, I have Hellboy and Hellboy 2, I converted them with FAVC to DVD with half-d1, 8000 is the max bitrate. The result here is that the Hellboy part 1 is shaky while the part 2 is not. When i Opened them with TMPGEnc for menu creation, the default of both of them is Interlace. Whereas if I have full-d1 or VCD NO MOVIE is shaky and all of them is progressive.
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    A couple of points: To squeeze more than roughly 2 hours onto a DVD5 entails some sort of a tradeoff. If you stick with full D1, then a lower bitrate corresponds to a greater incidence of macroblocking artifacts in busy portions of the image, as well as during fast motion.

    Half-D1 allows you to avoid or reduce degradation under such conditions, but that's largely because you're starting from a lower quality in the first place. So, pick the degradation of your choice.

    Another option is to use an MP2 audio track, and at lower bitrates. The tradeoff, of course, is in audio quality. MPEG2 audio is supported in all the standalone players I've encountered, even though it's not strictly part of the US spec. Using MP2 this way will often give you a ~10-20% boost in play time.

    Certain bootleg DVDs from Asia contain, say, 8-10 TV episodes by using a combination of these methods. It's essentially the equivalent of authoring a DVD using XVCD-encoded assets. Hardly high-def (!), but viewed on a portable DVD player, it's enough to keep the kids happy on long car and plane rides.

    Now, as to the shakiness: That can be the result of several things, ranging from incorrect field dominance, to pulldown-related problems (sometimes a flag doesn't get set properly, for example). I encounter this fairly often in encoding VCDs (no comments about "VCD is crap", please -- I am well aware of its deficiencies). If you use TMPGENC to create the MPEG1 stream, you can select various filters, some of which will almost certainly solve your problem (but some experimentation may be needed to determine the right solution). Just as one illustrative example, you can use the deinterlace filter option (click on it to bring up a menu of about a dozen or two different choices for deinterlacing strategies; the default is "none").
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  5. Member dzsoul's Avatar
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    anyway, one thing i really forgot it is not really this:

    "If i set it to progressive I think the movie will be not good because the default offers it as interlace."

    It is not really that the movie will not be good, TMPGEnc will reencode it because the converted files are really interlace. Example, if TMPGEnc offers it as interlace, and if i leave it like that, when i start making the output, it will just make things into a DVD format and would only take about 15 minutes. If i make it to progressive, it will reencode the whole movie and it takes about an hour to finish things up.

    Sorry, just a correction.
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  6. Member dzsoul's Avatar
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    I'm sorry but i'd like to bump this since the real topic is about how i can set whether interlace or progressive and just to remind you i use HC in FAVC.

    Most of the time when i use Full-d1 with a movie so far the result is always interlace even if the source/input is progressive (i used mediainfo on the source).

    thanks.
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  7. If you're making NTSC DVDs, even if the source is progressive 23.976fps AVI, and even if it's encoded as progressive 23.976fps, after pulldown the final output is interlaced 29.97fps. I don't use FAVC but it has a good reputation and I suspect it's doing everything correctly.

    If you'd like that confirmed, please upload a short 10 second piece of the output for us to have a look.
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  8. Member dzsoul's Avatar
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    but why is the results progressive when i use VCD instead full-d1 with 3 movies?
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  9. Probably because you're encoding for progressive 29.97fps. But I don't use VCD resolutions or, as I already said, use FAVC. Rather than argue about it, why not do as I suggested and upload a small 10 second piece of the output so I or someone else can tell you if it was done properly.
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  10. Member Ethlred's Avatar
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    VCD is inherently progressive. There simply is no interlacing.

    Ethelred
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  11. Originally Posted by Ethlred
    VCD is inherently progressive. There simply is no interlacing.
    When sent to a TV via composite or s-video it is still sent interlaced, one field at a time. The two fields are either identical or they are interpolated from the one stored field.
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  12. Member AlanHK's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by dzsoul
    so if i put 2 movies in one DVD5 i should tick full-d1 and lowering the bitrate? and if it will be 3 movies i would select VCD?
    I personally would never make VCD, unless the source is VCD, as then any conversion will be lossy.

    I've put up to 5 hours at D1 DVD. It's better than VHS and looks fine on my CRT 29".
    But on a widescreen LCD, it looks a bit blurry, I must admit.

    DVD MPEG2 uses variable rate, VCD MEPG1 is a constant rate. So for the same final file size, I think you get better quality on average with MPEG2, both starting from the same higher quality source, as the encoder is able to allocate more bits where it needs (using HCEnc you can see the bitrate frame by frame as it encodes -- full black frames are almost zero, high action is several times the average you set).

    I work out the bitrate by loading a combined AVS file, including all the video I intend to put in one project, and setting the final size to be 4,000,000 kb in HCEnc, then using that rate for the individual encodes.
    Audio usually AC3 stereo at 128k. I downmix 5.1 if present in the source, since I usually listen through headphones or two speakers anyway.

    For TV episodes I'm happy to use 2000 kb/s or better, have gone down as low as 1600.
    For movies higher if possible.
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  13. Member dzsoul's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by manono
    Probably because you're encoding for progressive 29.97fps. But I don't use VCD resolutions or, as I already said, use FAVC. Rather than argue about it, why not do as I suggested and upload a small 10 second piece of the output so I or someone else can tell you if it was done properly.
    I use FAVC from the very start. look at my topic title. i'll be posting a part of the output later.

    Originally Posted by AlanHK
    Originally Posted by dzsoul
    so if i put 2 movies in one DVD5 i should tick full-d1 and lowering the bitrate? and if it will be 3 movies i would select VCD?
    I personally would never make VCD, unless the source is VCD, as then any conversion will be lossy.
    Yup. i just said that when i use VCD(in FAVC - there, we have to choose Full-d1, half-d1, or VCD, this is what i meant) my result is always progressive to all the movies. And i usually use VCD when i want to have 3 movies fitted in one DVD(4.7GB). And the resulting three movies are all progressive. Actually it's fine for me if those movies that are being used with VCD looks worse because those are for my cousin and it's fine for him anyway.


    To generalize, I can never make full-d1 progressive since it will be always interlace no matter what.

    Just another question, just going back, the shaky result is not resulted by the movie being interlaced? Because recently i've made another DVD using FAVC with full-d1 and it turns out that the result is shaky and i thought this is caused by choosing half-d1(Please read my first post since i've explained a lot about the 'shakiness' there if you haven't).

    don't worry i'll post the result later so you'll know what i really meant by shaky back then.

    Thanks a lot guys
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  14. Half D1 will not create shakiness.

    If you see a very fast (30 fps), slight up and down shakiness, with sharp, high contrast material, even with still shots, it's because your player is doing a bob deinterlace.

    If you see two-steps-forward-one-step-back shakiness only when there is motion you have the wrong field order.
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  15. Member dzsoul's Avatar
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    so what is really the cause of shakiness? the wrong field order? sorry i dont really get that. what makes the field order go wrong? is it because of the source/input? or FAVC? or because of what?

    after FAVC is working, i usually play the results with WMP then Cyberlink powerdvd or media player classic, all of them shows shakiness. even though after i work with the working files with TMPGEnc DVD author (after using FAVC i create menu for it with TMPGEnc).
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  16. Each frame of interlaced video contains two half pictures (fields). The half pictures are intended to be viewed one at a time and in a particular order. The field order is the order in which those two fields are supposed to be viewed. If you view them in the wrong field order you will see fields out of sequence. Instead of fields in order 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8... you will see 2,1,4,3,6,5,8,7... During still shots you won't notice any problem. Since nothing is moving it doesn't matter what order you see the fields. But if anything is moving you will a fast jerkiness. This is so fast that many people will call it flickering or strobing.

    The capture device determines the field order. Some capture top-field-first, others bottom-field-first. You need to maintain the correct field order throughout your handling.

    When interlaced video is viewed on a progressive monitor it has to be deinterlaced. A bob deinterlace separates the two fields, then fills in the missing lines (one field is in all the even numbered scan lines, one in all the odd numbered scanlines) by averaging the pixels above and below it. This causes a slight up and down jumpiness, most obvious with sharp horizontal edges.
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  17. Member dzsoul's Avatar
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    thanks for the info. so what can i do to prevent this?
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  18. Check the field order setting in all your programs.
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  19. Member dzsoul's Avatar
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    what programs you mean? sorry for asking a lot of questions.
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  20. All the programs you are using to handle your video. Each should have field order settings. Don't count on them determining the field order for themselves.
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  21. Member dzsoul's Avatar
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    Ok, i use FAVC in handling the video. i might look into it.

    actually this DOES NOT always happen, only to some inputs. This only happens sometimes that the result is shaky.
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  22. Member dzsoul's Avatar
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    here is a part of the output. I used Mpeg2Cut to cut this part from the output. My Windows Media Player can play the real output but it can't read this file.

    http://www.mediafire.com/?35bwmcny1xi

    Notice the shakiness? But when i opened the output with Mpeg2Cut (or even Nero Showtime and Cyberlink PowerDVD) i didn't notice any shakiness. But in WMP and Media player Classic it does. I've already tried burning my previous outputs with the same problem and tried watching them in my TV using my dvd player i can see the shakiness.

    Anyway, i can't find where is the field order setting in FAVC.

    Just a reminder this doesn't always happen to my outputs that there is shakiness but only for some.
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  23. About the only "shakiness" or "flickering" I see is in the Sony text at the bottom of the Statue of Liberty and on her clothing, and I see that all the time with PAL2NTSC conversions when using that player (MPC HC). It seems to result from the pulldown applied, or maybe it's deinterlacing it. When using the VLC player I don't see it. When I view my own conversions on my standalone hooked up to my TV set I never see that "shakiness". Have you played this on your TV set yet? And what kind of a TV is it - a traditional CRT interlaced TV set or a progressive widescreen HDTV? If playing to an HDTV using a lousy progressive scan DVD player, it might just deinterlace it creating the "shakiness" you describe. Otherwise I don't see how this particular sample could play with any problems.

    There's nothing at all wrong with that VOB. You probably couldn't have picked a worse sample if you had tried, though, since it has a mix of black frames, logo, and very fast moving intro, almost all of it useless, and nothing from the actual movie. Apparently your source was a 25fps AVI, and FAVC applied 25->29.97fps pulldown after encoding it, as it should have. Maybe you're more sensitive to the slightly different judder of that non-standard pulldown than you are to standard 3:2 pulldown. And it was encoded as progressive, unlike what you seemed to be saying earlier. And it outputs interlaced 29.97fps, just as it's supposed to. FAVC did a good job with it. I would have done some things differently, if I had done it (higher max bitrate, DCT Precision of 10), but those are minor things. If there are any problems, they probably result from using low quality AVIs as sources, rather than better quality DVDs. That's if the source for this thing was originally an AVI, you never really said.
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  24. Member dzsoul's Avatar
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    yes my source is avi. sorry i forgot to tell you. it's a 2.49GB xvid avi.

    this is the info in the folder of the movie:

    Video : 2227 XviD
    Bits per Pixel : 0.412 bpp
    Resolution : 720x300
    Frame Rate : 25,000
    Audio 1st : 448 kb/s 6 chnls AC3 English
    SA : B VOP,No Qpel,No GMC
    Source : Bluray

    Originally Posted by manono
    I would have done some things differently, if I had done it (higher max bitrate, DCT Precision of 10), but those are minor things.
    In FAVC the default max bitrate is 8000 and i didn't touch that. how much would be the ideal max bitrate? and my DC precision is 8. someone posted (forgot what site, im sure it was a forum) that said "use 10 bits for AVG 6Mbps and above, 9 for 3500~4500 and 8 bits for low bitrate encoding (e.g. 1.5Mbps for quarter size frame)". In fact i really don't understand much about that DC precision and how it affects the encoding. So from now on, i must use 10 always?

    Originally Posted by manono
    what kind of a TV is it - a traditional CRT interlaced TV set or a progressive widescreen HDTV?
    CRT interlaced(i think so....T_T ) TV but my standalone claims it is using progressive scan.

    Originally Posted by manono
    It seems to result from the pulldown applied, or maybe it's deinterlacing it.
    FAVC does the pulldown to all encodings right? But the "shakiness" is resulted only when the source is very bad? Because the shakiness only appears on some inputs, not really all.

    Originally Posted by manono
    and I see that all the time with PAL2NTSC conversions when using that player (MPC HC).
    But i've also done an avi with 25FPS(this makes it PAL right?) to dvd that there's no shaking that i can see - compared to this right now.

    THanks a lot for your help.
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  25. Turn off the Bob deinterlacer in your player.
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  26. So from now on, i must use 10 always?
    Use whatever you like. I said it was a minor quibble, and I always use 10. But I don't use AVIs as sources and don't put 2 movies on a DVDR either. Ideal max bitrate? I've seen it argued at this site that 6000 is plenty, something with which I strongly disagree. I usually use 9500, but with low bitrate encodes such as you're doing, I suppose 8000 is fine. Again, I said mine were minor quibbles and I can't really fault FAVC for anything it did.
    CRT interlaced(i think so....T_T ) TV but my standalone claims it is using progressive scan.
    Not if it's outputting to an interlaced CRT TV, it's not. Or shouldn't be. I didn't think you could even make them use progressive scan if the display was interlaced. Anyway, if I were you I'd check the DVD player settings and make sure it's not in progressive scan mode - that it's outputting 480i and not 480p. Could that be the source of your problems? I don't know.
    FAVC does the pulldown to all encodings right?
    Yes, it can't be authored unless it outputs 29.97fps. And it was encoded as 25fps.
    But i've also done an avi with 25FPS(this makes it PAL right?) to dvd that there's no shaking that i can see - compared to this right now.
    The source for the encode was a PAL 25fps (Blu-Ray?) disc, yes. As for why some 25fps AVI sources make flickering DVDs and others don't, I don't know unless you use different players with which to test.
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  27. Member dzsoul's Avatar
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    does 23.976 FPS avi's or even mp4's make flickering DVDs?

    Thanks, maybe i should prevent 25FPS avi since i'm so sensitive.
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  28. Originally Posted by dzsoul
    does 23.976 FPS avi's or even mp4's make flickering DVDs?
    I'm still not sure exactly what you mean by flicking. Did you try what I suggested -- turn off the Bob deinterlacer in your player (or MPEG2 decoder)?

    Originally Posted by dzsoul
    does 23.976 FPS avi's or even mp4's make flickering DVDs? Thanks, maybe i should prevent 25FPS avi since i'm so sensitive.
    25 fps shouldn't be any more flickery than 23.976 fps unless you have an HDTV that doesn't handle inverse 3:2:3:2:2 pulldown correctly.
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  29. Member AlanHK's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by dzsoul
    does 23.976 FPS avi's or even mp4's make flickering DVDs?

    Thanks, maybe i should prevent 25FPS avi since i'm so sensitive.
    If you have a 25 fps AVI, make a PAL DVD, assuming your player and TV can play PAL.
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  30. Do you find this Xvid flickery?

    test.avi

    That file and your VOB file look the same on my computer.

    Or are you talking about the slight flickering just before that sequence where the camera is pulling back? The lines on the base do flicker a bit there but that's a resizing issue.

    <edit>
    Oops, I just noticed that VirtualDubMod thought the VOB was 29.97 fps when it was really 25 fps. A 25 fps version:
    test25.avi

    Or does your VOB shake something like this:
    shakey.avi
    </edit>
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