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  1. Member
    Join Date: Oct 2004
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    I have a Canon HV-30 camcorder than outputs 1920 x 1080 from the camera's HDMI port. I would appreciate any suggestions on ways to capture this HDMI video stream. When recording in the camera to HDV tape, the max that HDV tape supports is 1440 x 1080. The only way to capture 1920 x 1080 is to stream it from the camera to some sort of capturing device (computer with HDMI interface) while the camera is shooting. The camera cannot record the full resolution to tape because HDV tape doesn't support anything above 1440.

    Cineform has a conceptual device that they have been talking about for a long time. I seriously doubt if they will ever bring it to market. If they do, it will be extremely expensive. http://www.cineform.com/products/CineFormRecorder.htm
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    Black Magic Design Intensity Pro
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  3. the 1440 on the tape is the same quality as the 1920 going out the hdmi. where else would the video is come from? the 1440 is recorded with non-square pixels and expanded to 1920 on playback. you need to do the same thing after transferring the tape to the computer. the pixel ratio on the tape is 1.3333 and should be specified in the recorded file, if not while in the encoder right click on the file/properties/pixel aspect ratio/HDV(1.3333).
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  4. Member
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    I have read that the video stream coming from the HDMI camcorder port while shooting has not been MPEG compressed and it is a true 1920 x 1080 video stream. Obviously this isn't the case when playing from the tape in the camcorder because it has already been MPEG encoded and is 1440 x 1080 at this point.

    EDIT: Note to minidv2dvd, You didn't read my full question. You are talking about reading it from the tape; I'm not.

    The Black Magic Design Intensity Pro http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/ looks like it will do the job. The gotcha is that to stream HD to hard disc requires a 4 drive RAID 0 to keep up with the data rate.
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  5. Originally Posted by SCDVD
    The Black Magic Design Intensity Pro http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/ looks like it will do the job. The gotcha is that to stream HD to hard disc requires a 4 drive RAID 0 to keep up with the data rate.
    If you only need to capture from HDMI, then the regular Intensity will do. You'll save a $100. The only difference between the two models is the pro model supports analog connections.
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  6. i read it. afaik canon has never claimed the hdmi output hasn't been through the digic dv encoder chip to 1440 and decoded back to 1920. users have made that statement. canon doesn't even claim to capture 1920 on the sensor, they state "the CMOS sensor reproduces high-resolution images at 1920 x 1080 resolution with full HD information in video images" not quite the same.

    and you have to have the cam constantly attached to a high powered computer with the HD capture card and a h.d. raid array to get the full uncompressed stream - it's not a convenient option.
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  7. Member
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    I sent an email to Black Magic asking them about this and here is their response:

    "When the camera is connected to our products (via HDMI or component), the camera will do a process called un-line decimation that will allow for the original 1920X1080 to come out over HDMI or component directly to our card so you are capturing the original 1920X1080 that your footage originally was. Hence, working with uncompressed footage."


    "un-line decimation" is a new term for me.
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  8. Originally Posted by SCDVD
    I sent an email to Black Magic asking them about this and here is their response:

    "When the camera is connected to our products (via HDMI or component), the camera will do a process called un-line decimation that will allow for the original 1920X1080 to come out over HDMI or component directly to our card so you are capturing the original 1920X1080 that your footage originally was. Hence, working with uncompressed footage."


    "un-line decimation" is a new term for me.
    That's nice, but I wouldn't believe them. Why ask black magic about a canon product? You should ask Canon if the HV-30 can output true 1920x1080p over the HDMI output. The only thing Black Magic affirmed, is that their card will accept true 1920x1080 uncompressed video.
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    This is for the hv20, but I think it applies to hv30 as well

    http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t=7008


    HDMI is captured on an card manufactured by Blackmagic Design called the Intensity, or with HDMI and component it's the Intensity Pro.

    What you will actually get is 24p embedded in a 1080i stream. You then do pull down (there is freeware to do it, or Cineform). You end up with full 1920x1080 square pixel at 24p with 4:2:2 color space.

    To compare:
    Firewire capture: 1440x1080 with 1.333 pixel ratio and 4:2:0 colorspace.

    HDMI capture: 1920x1080 with 1.0 pixel ratio and 4:2:2 color space.

    The HDMI has 50% more color space. You can see the color difference. If you search the forums you'll see comparison images. More color is shown in the HDMI images. There is still some debate over the potential 25% increase in image data. We are still trying to get an answer out of Canon.

    The CMOS sensor is advertised as full 1920x1080. (Actually it's bigger for the still photo capability but masked off for video.)

    The increased image resolution is definately there at 1920 in HDMI captured images. The debate is whether the image is an internally upconverted data stream in the camera. In other words is it interpolated data or raw data.
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  10. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SCDVD
    I sent an email to Black Magic asking them about this and here is their response:

    "When the camera is connected to our products (via HDMI or component), the camera will do a process called un-line decimation that will allow for the original 1920X1080 to come out over HDMI or component directly to our card so you are capturing the original 1920X1080 that your footage originally was. Hence, working with uncompressed footage."


    "un-line decimation" is a new term for me.
    True but the 1920x1080i that the HV20/30 camcorder produces at the HDMI port most likely followed this path.

    1. Optical capture to CMOS Sensor and interlace processed to 1440x1080i YCbCr.

    2a. 1440x1080i is MPeg2 encoded to 25Mb/s for output to tape or the IEEE-1394 port.

    3a. 25Mb/s HDV stream (from camera or tape) is decompressed and H stretched to 1920x1080i for output over HDMI port.

    So the video quality would be the same from the IEEE-1394 port at 25Mb/s (3.13 MB/s or 11.25 GB/r) or the HDMI port at ~ 960Mb/s* (120MB/s or 421 GB/hr).

    Camcorders capable of true optical 1920x1080 generally sell for far more than $799 online. Pro HD lenses start around $8,000.

    * RAID or real time encoding required. BlackMagic provides an MJPeg software coder. Alternative is Cineform.
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  11. hehe i like that, "un-line decimation" i'd take that to mean they drop any frame they can't handle. and it's a feature, not a defect.
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  12. Member Soopafresh's Avatar
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    Might be less expensive just buying an HG21, which does AVCHD at 24mbs with full 1920x1080 recording.
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    Originally Posted by mrswla

    Why ask black magic about a canon product?
    Because I don't think Canon would give a straight answer. And after Black Magic's "un-line decimation" answer, I guess I didn't get a straight answer from them either.
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  14. Member
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    Originally Posted by edDV

    So the video quality would be the same from the IEEE-1394 port at 25Mb/s (3.13 MB/s or 11.25 GB/r) or the HDMI port at ~ 960Mb/s* (120MB/s or 421 GB/hr).

    Assuming that is the case, there is nothing to gain from using the HDMI port to output from while shooting.
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  15. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SCDVD
    Originally Posted by edDV

    So the video quality would be the same from the IEEE-1394 port at 25Mb/s (3.13 MB/s or 11.25 GB/r) or the HDMI port at ~ 960Mb/s* (120MB/s or 421 GB/hr).

    Assuming that is the case, there is nothing to gain from using the HDMI port to output from while shooting.
    There would be no difference if the HDV encoder is in the path. The stated purpose of the HDMI port is to allow direct playback to a consumer HDTV.

    Alternate designs might include 1440x1080i to 1920x1080i stretch before encoding. This would only work for the live feed. Feeds from tape would still be HDV decompressed.

    A higher end 3 sensor camera section may make true 1920x1080i to the HDMI port.


    Question: Has anyone on the www.HV20.com site ever reported a superior picture over the HDMI port? I did a quick search. Nothing yet.
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  16. Member Soopafresh's Avatar
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    Question: Has anyone on the www.HV20.com site ever reported a superior picture over the HDMI port? I did a quick search. Nothing yet.

    I did see a thread at HV20.com on the subject, with posted pictures of HDMI vs Firewire out.
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  17. Member
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    Originally Posted by Soopafresh
    Question: Has anyone on the www.HV20.com site ever reported a superior picture over the HDMI port? I did a quick search. Nothing yet.

    I did see a thread at HV20.com on the subject, with posted pictures of HDMI vs Firewire out.
    hv20.com is a good site but it could be a lot better. They are way over vigilant about posting on any subject that has been posted on before. There is a balance to moderating repeat postings. If not controlled, overly repeated post topics can be annoying. But "throttling" repeat postings requires a deft hand. HV20.com way overdoes the control. If you over control repeat postings, you choke the dynamic of a forum. To be a little facetious, I calculate that the site will have to close down on March 17, 2009. By that time, all possible subjects will have been covered and it will no longer be possible to start a new thread because it will have already been posted. If you want to get smacked, all you have to do is post on just about anything over there and you are very likely to get jumped on for "not searching before posting" if not by a mod, a number of wannabe mods will jump on you because the repeat posting obsession has become a forum culture. I think these wannabes feel they are winning points by sniping at posters who post on topics that have been posted before. The moderators there need to get a life. They act like they are running a little Kingdom over which they are the all-powerful supreme ruler.
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  18. Member gadgetguy's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SCDVD
    They act like they are running a little Kingdom over which they are the all-powerful supreme ruler.
    They ARE running a kingdom and they ARE all powerful. And they are here too, it's just that our King and his marshals are more benevolent (and more intelligent).
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    Ownership, king and all of that stuff is nice but if you have a party and no one comes, who is there to be a king over?
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  20. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Here is the HV20.com thread that makes the case that the HDMI port taps ahead of the HDV compressor for the live camera feed. He (Duke) compared the live feed to tape playback.
    http://hv20.com/showthread.php?t=7228

    Still the 25 Mb/s HDV vs. 960 Mb/s penalty for HDMI capture should be considered. 960 Mb/s means 422 GB/hr capture files!

    From BlackMagic Intensity Pro manual


    True, you can realtime software compress to MJPEG or Cineform to a single drive using a beefy CPU.
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  21. Member gadgetguy's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SCDVD
    Ownership, king and all of that stuff is nice but if you have a party and no one comes, who is there to be a king over?
    That's where the intelligent part comes in.
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    Originally Posted by gadgetguy

    That's where the intelligent part comes in.
    You got that right!
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  23. Member
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    Hello,
    I have a macbook pro, and a canon Vixia HFS200 with 2 SDHC 32 gig cards. Here's my goal.
    Capture hi-def video from the camera directly to my macbook pro (external 1.5 TB Drive). I'm a coach, and I need a quick way to video a game and have it available asap without having to plug the mem card into the macbook pro and allow imovie to encode it. .MOV is ok but i really need it encoded to mpeg2 in real time...due to the fact that our game software editing system only sees avi's, mpegs and wmvs.

    Any help would be appreciated.
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  24. Member
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    Originally Posted by jsumoski View Post
    Hello,
    I have a macbook pro, and a canon Vixia HFS200 with 2 SDHC 32 gig cards. Here's my goal.
    Capture hi-def video from the camera directly to my macbook pro (external 1.5 TB Drive). I'm a coach, and I need a quick way to video a game and have it available asap without having to plug the mem card into the macbook pro and allow imovie to encode it. .MOV is ok but i really need it encoded to mpeg2 in real time...due to the fact that our game software editing system only sees avi's, mpegs and wmvs.

    Any help would be appreciated.
    I received this recently from a video exchange supplier:

    "...This year we have a live capture option using an external device connected to your camera & computer. This will allow you to capture HD footage directly to our MP4 files for upload. This can drastically reduce your workflow time as you can have files to upload directly after the game. Your setup would be like this...

    -2 people, camera, recorder, computer FOR EACH CAMERA VIEW REQUIRED, ie for side AND end view need 4 people, 2 cameras...
    -camera connected to recorder via HDMI/component/composite
    -recorder connected to either Mac or PC via usb
    -along with the cameraman, you'll need someone controlling the capture app on the computer marking in's & out's

    ...here is an Amazon link for the hardware:

    http://www.amazon.com/Blackmagic-Design-Recorder-Distributes-Websites/dp/B005ABJ0H8/re...0659442&sr=8-2 ..."
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  25. Member
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    S9300 - Can I display the camera image on my PC while filming? How? I have a mini-HDMI from the camera to a usb port on the PC.
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