Blu Ray vs AVCHD?

[kelvin1704]

Blu Ray vs AVCHD?

I am confuse.

Anyway, I have a High Defination video camera that records to tape, which mean it can do blu ray. However, i wanted to change to a harddisk based high defination, it seems my only choice is to go with AVCHD.

Can someone tell me am i losing out a lot in terms of quality with AVCHD? I am no proffesional, i just want to archive my family video and play it with great details in my plasma tv.

Other than that, can I do blu ray recording on a DVD-R DL?

[zoobie]

last i looked, AVCHD was at around 15000kbps whereas HDV is 25000
whether or not you can determine the difference is up to your eyes and setup

[edDV]

Blu Ray vs AVCHD?

I am confuse.

Anyway, I have a High Defination video camera that records to tape, which mean it can do blu ray. However, i wanted to change to a harddisk based high defination, it seems my only choice is to go with AVCHD.

Can someone tell me am i losing out a lot in terms of quality with AVCHD? I am no proffesional, i just want to archive my family video and play it with great details in my plasma tv.

Other than that, can I do blu ray recording on a DVD-R DL?

BluRay is a DVD disc standard. Allowed codecs are MPeg2, VC-1 and H.264 AVC.

I think you are saying your current camcorder is HDV which is 25 Mb/s MPeg2 based within a DV structure.

AVCHD is a form of H.264, 15 Mb/s max currently.

The advantage to stay with what you have HDV.
- Depending on the camcorder, HDV is a higher quality format currently than consumer AVCHD.
- MPeg2 suffers less generation loss than h.264. Your finished DVD will have higher quality.
- HDV gives you an immediate backup --- the tape. Blu-Ray DVD authoring is limited currently. Tape makes a good archive until you are ready to author BluRay and makes a good backup even then.
- HDV format is better supported by today's edit software and performs better with today's computers.
- HDV camcorders can output standard definition DV format so you can edit a normal DVD today without upgrading edit software and save the high definition version on tape to edit in the future.

Disadvantages of HDV
- Records to either tape or external HDD. Today nobody makes an internal HDD HDV camcorder. Keep in mind that tape is a better long term backup media than HDD or DVD.
- Transfer from the camcorder to computer is limited to 1X with tape. An external HDD can be read immediately.

Advantages of AVCHD.
- Can record in variable bit rates. This allows highly compressed recording to flash media but quality drops with bit rate.
- AVCHD can be transferred from the camcorder to the computer faster than 1x.
- AVCHD format (pre-editing) can be backed up from computer to Blu-Ray DVD and can be played on a Blu Ray player. Some limited cuts editing can be done without dropping quality.

Disadvantages of AVCHD.
- H.264 was intended as a final distribution format and suffers loss if recoded. Normally editors first convert (lossy) to MPeg2 or other intermediate format to limit generational quality loss.
- H.264 HD is difficult to play on most computers. A fast computer and fast display card are required. HDV MPeg2 plays smoother on a typical computer.
- Direct editing of AVCHD is slow and frustrating on most current computer hardware because of slow decoding. Even when cuts editing, it is difficult to shuttle or scrub to find the edit point. Computers need to be faster to solve this problem. Consumer editors usually convert AVCHD to MPeg2 or other format to make it easier to edit. This causes quality loss.
- AVCHD provides no backup strategy. Most offload the camcorder HDD or flash media to make room for more recording. Most will fail to make a backup before attempting an edit. In many cases, the path to the original is lost. AVCHD places the full backup burden on the user.
- AVCHD is not fully standardized. This means edit software may only work with one brand of camcorder or firmware generation. This may leave some early (unmodified) hardware stranded without editor support.
- AVCHD will always be a compromise consumer format. It is possible to extend the format to 25Mb/s for better quality (requiring a new camcorder). As computers speed up and software improves, AVCHD will be easier to edit. Pros and Prosumers will bypass AVCHD for DVCProHD, XDCAM-EX or AVC-Intra, the pro H.264 format.

[webvan]

Thanks for this most excellent analysis, currently the owner of a Sony HC3-E and having no time to edit I was thinking of upgrading to SR10/11 wit AVCHD a few more pros :
- can be read nativey in PS3
- can easily erase unwanted sequences from the cam (who hasn't pressed the record button by mistake!)
- easier to replay sequences when cam plugged into HD TV, don't have to keep people waiting by rewinding tape !

Excellent points about editing but I have no time for editing, I used to edit a lot when I got my miniDV in 2000 but no longer have the time for that, so I wouldn't be missing much with AVCHD. My attempts in 2006 at HDV editing were pretty miserable anyway!

I just caught a banner here for TMPGenc Editor v3 and that seems quite promising for HDV, it won't make avchd DVDs though, only Blu-Ray (HD) and DVD (SD) it seems.

[raffie]

Interesting...

[MozartMan]

... wit AVCHD a few more pros :
- can be read nativey in PS3

HDV (.m2t file) can be read natively in PS3 too (tested with my HDR-HC1 and PS3).

[webvan]

Ah, that's good news will give it a try later ! I wonder if there are tools to drop the bitrate a bit from 25MBPS and stay in 1080, actually I could live with 720p too !

[MozartMan]

Ah, that's good news will give it a try later ! I wonder if there are tools to drop the bitrate a bit from 25MBPS and stay in 1080, actually I could live with 720p too !

I can use Vegas to convert HDV to AVCHD and stay in 1080i.

[SCDVD]

I suspect that AVCHD is stuck as a consumer format. On the high end, Sony for example has XDCAM. It seems like they have positioned XDCAM as the pro high-end format while AVCHD is positioned as a consumer format. The ~15MBPS max bitrate on AVCHD just doesn't cut it for smooth, high quality 1080 HD. I suppose that competition among the camcorder manufacturers could change this in the future but meanwhile, the best HD video quality solution is HDV.

[webvan]

I guess it depends on the res, 15mbps mpeg4 should be enough for 720p ?

@MozartMan - Does Vegas let you select the bitrate ?

[edDV]

I guess it depends on the res, 15mbps mpeg4 should be enough for 720p ?

@MozartMan - Does Vegas let you select the bitrate ?

What kinds of editing do you expect to do? It can be done several ways in Vegas.

[fjmr]

My question is:

Can I use NERO 8 to convert HDV from a Camcorder Sony HDR HC5 ( HDV Camcorder) to AVCHD and stay in 1080i?? I mean maintaining the HD quality??

And doing so to record to a DVD -+ R or DVD -+ DL without loosing the Image quality of the HDV tape??

Thanks.

[edDV]

My question is:

Can I use NERO 8 to convert HDV from a Camcorder Sony HDR HC5 ( HDV Camcorder) to AVCHD and stay in 1080i?? I mean maintaining the HD quality??

And doing so to record to a DVD -+ R or DVD -+ DL without loosing the Image quality of the HDV tape??

Thanks.

And play on what? If on a computer better to keep it MPeg2. Further conmression will lower quality but it will still be HD.

[fjmr]

Play in a Sony PS3 or a Blu Ray Player.

[edDV]

Play in a Sony PS3 or a Blu Ray Player.

I need a refresher on what exactly will play in a PS3 and BluRay Player. MozartMan above says HDV m2t will play in a PS3. BluRay players will play properly formatted MPeg2, h.264 and VC-1. Most BluRay players require BluRay media for HD.

[fjmr]

With Nero Vision Express 5 that is included in Nero 8 pack You can do an AVCHD disc recorded in a dvd or dvd dl disc and play in PS3 or BD Player I have already done that but with a film from a DV standard tape transferred to the PC as a standard DV and then recorded with NVE 5 to an AVCHD DVD disc.
My question is if I could explain well can I do the same if a have a DV tape recorded in HC5 Sony camcorder in HDV format transferred to the PC and then burn an AVCHD DVD disc but still having the high quality of HDV??

[jg0001]

Play in a Sony PS3 or a Blu Ray Player.

I need a refresher on what exactly will play in a PS3 and BluRay Player. MozartMan above says HDV m2t will play in a PS3. BluRay players will play properly formatted MPeg2, h.264 and VC-1. Most BluRay players require BluRay media for HD.

The PS3 is an impressive piece of machinery.

I have a Sony HDR-SR7 (HDD based camcorder, records 1920x1440 (viewed as 1920x1080i)) in AVCHD format.

I can:
(1) copy the AVCHD files (with .m2ts extensions) direct from the HDD of the camcorder onto a thumbdrive or USB harddrive and play them on the PS3; the files show up in the PS3's crossbar and you can play them one at a time, but can't tell it to play one file and then the next automatically (this will likely be added in a future FW update)

(2) burn an AVCHD DVD (note: yes, onto a DVD+R disc, for example) using the included software that came with the camcorder and play that on the PS3; the included software puts a LIMITED MENU SCREEN on the disc... it's not fancy at all

(2b) burn the AVCHD .m2ts files direct to a DVD, without structure -- this only works because (1) works; but this is unlikely to result in a disc where the files would work in a 'regular' Blu-Ray player

(3) burn a BDAV DVD via Nero 8 (this may result in a transcoding to MPG2, IIRC)

(4) do #2, but using Nero 8 instead of the Sony software

(5) use the included Sony software to transcode the video to a DVD compliant form, burn on a DVD and play wherever (decent quality too)

(6) FWIW, I also managed to use Nero 8 to transfer/encode the .m2ts files from my PC to my PSP, and they look great. I use Nero Recode directly for transitioning to the PSP (if doing this, I recommend selecting the option to boost the audio volume, as the default volume will otherwise be very low, even with the PSP maxed out)

(7) For getting .m2ts files to OTHER formats (i.e. not simply the PSP or iPod, etc), I had to use Nero VISION (not recode), set it for a DVD project (that part doesn't matter), select an input file, then selectively CONVERT files one at a time (without ever completing a project, just using the button at the bottom of the page that brings you to a conversion program (which is not Nero recode)). Via this method of using Nero Vision, you can encode the files to a large variety of formats, including standard MPEG2, which is what I do to get videos onto my KODAK picture frame -- and they don't look too bad either!

The PS3 will nicely play back the .m2ts files from a thumbdrive or USB harddrive (my choice, a nice little WD Passport drive, powered from the USB port), and even play those back with 5.1 surround (though prior to the latest firmware update, it was only 5.1 if you used a disc to play back).

It is my understanding that ALL BluRay players will play AVCHD discs, if they use the proper structure... when I have Sony's included software make an "AVCHD" disc, no transcoding takes place (at least, nothing more than mere seconds if at all, b/c it burns right away), so I'm assuming very little is done to the .m2ts files to set them up for the proper structure.

[fjmr]

I am repeating my question to complement jg 0001 answer ok!

With Nero Vision Express 5 that is included in Nero 8 pack You can do an AVCHD disc recorded in a dvd or dvd dl disc and play in PS3 or BD Player I have already done that but with a film from a DV standard tape transferred to the PC as a standard DV and then recorded with NVE 5 to an AVCHD DVD disc.
My question is if I could explain well can I do the same if a have a DV tape recorded in HC5 Sony camcorder in HDV format transferred to the PC and then burn an AVCHD DVD disc but still having the high quality of HDV??

Doing so I intend to clarify my question.
Thanks jg0001 and edDV.

[jg0001]

With Nero Vision Express 5 that is included in Nero 8 pack You can do an AVCHD disc recorded in a dvd or dvd dl disc and play in PS3 or BD Player I have already done that but with a film from a DV standard tape transferred to the PC as a standard DV and then recorded with NVE 5 to an AVCHD DVD disc.
My question is if I could explain well can I do the same if a have a DV tape recorded in HC5 Sony camcorder in HDV format transferred to the PC and then burn an AVCHD DVD disc but still having the high quality of HDV??

One thing you'll note is that there is NO consumer software that will make a NICE menu for an AVCHD disc.
(1) The included options with NERO 8 are very limited, and while they do work, they can be quite ugly and I think there are only 2-3 choices, none of which are BASIC, which is a shame.

(2) Sony's own included software creates a very bland menu, but at least it pumps out a disc with no further encoding from source.

(3) Pinnacle Studio 11 Ultimate, which is labeled as being AVCHD friendly, will NOT make an AVCHD disc with a MENU (you can easily make one without, but even then it seems to insist on "encoding" something, though I don't know what, as the same source in Sony's own AVCHD disc maker gets turned into a disc immediately versus the 1/10th x realtime speed of Studio). Pinnacle's manual suggests not creating a menu if making an AVCHD disc as that functionality needs work. I found this ridiculous, but so be it. I tried about 10x to make an AVCHD disc with a menu and it always got stuck while encoding around the 90% mark, never completing (I left it overnight on a 1 minute video to be sure). When you then take a peek at the directory where it puts the temp files, it's effectively empty except for the structure. Weird.

[MozartMan]

I am repeating my question to complement jg 0001 answer ok!

My question is if I could explain well can I do the same if a have a DV tape recorded in HC5 Sony camcorder in HDV format transferred to the PC and then burn an AVCHD DVD disc but still having the high quality of HDV??

YES, You CAN.
I did that.

Attached is my guide on
How to author MPEG-2 to AVCHD on DVD5/9
using Ulead DVD MovieFactory 6+ with HD pack
without re-encoding MPEG-2 to AVC:

Attachment: HowToAuthorMPEG2toAVCHD.pdf

You can also use free tool tsMuxeR, but you don't get the menu.

[webvan]

(6) FWIW, I also managed to use Nero 8 to transfer/encode the .m2ts files from my PC to my PSP, and they look great. I use Nero Recode directly for transitioning to the PSP (if doing this, I recommend selecting the option to boost the audio volume, as the default volume will otherwise be very low, even with the PSP maxed out)

Thanks for the detailed write-up but I don't understand why you perform this step since you wrote the PS3 reads m2ts files out of the box, are you reducing the encoding rate from the original 15mbps ? I suspect quality would still be good at 6/7Mbps in 720p, if that's an option at all.

[jg0001]

(6) FWIW, I also managed to use Nero 8 to transfer/encode the .m2ts files from my PC to my PSP, and they look great. I use Nero Recode directly for transitioning to the PSP (if doing this, I recommend selecting the option to boost the audio volume, as the default volume will otherwise be very low, even with the PSP maxed out)

Thanks for the detailed write-up but I don't understand why you perform this step since you wrote the PS3 reads m2ts files out of the box, are you reducing the encoding rate from the original 15mbps ? I suspect quality would still be good at 6/7Mbps in 720p, if that's an option at all.

Note, #6 was about the PSP, not the PS3 -- i.e. PlayStation PORTABLE... sorry for the confusion. I don't think the PS"P" will read AVCHD files in their native format like it's big bro will.

[jg0001]

I am repeating my question to complement jg 0001 answer ok!

My question is if I could explain well can I do the same if a have a DV tape recorded in HC5 Sony camcorder in HDV format transferred to the PC and then burn an AVCHD DVD disc but still having the high quality of HDV??

YES, You CAN.
I did that.

Attached is my guide on
How to author MPEG-2 to AVCHD on DVD5/9
using Ulead DVD MovieFactory 6+ with HD pack
without re-encoding MPEG-2 to AVC:

Attachment: HowToAuthorMPEG2toAVCHD.pdf

You can also use free tool tsMuxeR, but you don't get the menu.

The question may be (regarding your guide), did this work b/c it was the PS3 and it is more open to the file types it plays OR would this work on any Blu-Ray player? It still seems like you do a lot of work to potentially make a non-compliant, non-universally playable disc. I'd suggest you try this (perhaps in a store) on a few players and see if it works. I'm very curious as to the results.

[MozartMan]

The question may be (regarding your guide), did this work b/c it was the PS3 and it is more open to the file types it plays OR would this work on any Blu-Ray player? It still seems like you do a lot of work to potentially make a non-compliant, non-universally playable disc. I'd suggest you try this (perhaps in a store) on a few players and see if it works. I'm very curious as to the results.

Some people already did that. You can browse this thread from page 38:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=815296&page=38

[webvan]

(6) FWIW, I also managed to use Nero 8 to transfer/encode the .m2ts files from my PC to my PSP, and they look great. I use Nero Recode directly for transitioning to the PSP (if doing this, I recommend selecting the option to boost the audio volume, as the default volume will otherwise be very low, even with the PSP maxed out)

Thanks for the detailed write-up but I don't understand why you perform this step since you wrote the PS3 reads m2ts files out of the box, are you reducing the encoding rate from the original 15mbps ? I suspect quality would still be good at 6/7Mbps in 720p, if that's an option at all.

Note, #6 was about the PSP, not the PS3 -- i.e. PlayStation PORTABLE... sorry for the confusion. I don't think the PS"P" will read AVCHD files in their native format like it's big bro will.

Oops, sorry my bad !

Anyway I'm trying Nero Vision and so far I've got mixed feelings:

1. HDV importing is not optimized, it was maxing out my old P4 and dropping frames so I did the acquisition with HDVSplit. No errors there.

2. The Nero player is not optimized either, files were ultra choppy, using VLC they play back fine.

3. Can't really see a menu to convert files but got to it by starting a project and there I'm seeing a few interesing "Nero AVC" profiles, notable movie at 1280x720 that should be fine, will do some encoding to see what the result looks like.

[jg0001]

I have to start a project in Nero VISION and can then select a singular file and convert it into a wider assortment of codecs than using nero recode... which makes little sense to me... but it works, and fast. Then again, all of my 3 PCs are Quad Core CPUs.

[webvan]

Yes, looks like a CPU upgrade is in order ! Too bad, I quite like my P4/2.4Ghz from 2002 ! Maybe I can get a laptop to replace it. Do they make Quad Core laptops ?

So the results are in my HDV -> mt2s looks great on my PS3, unlike the 720/5Mbps created by the Nero-AVC, there seems to be a ratio problem for a start and its pretty choppy, I suspect it's not dealing properly with the interlacing, can't see any filter for that though. Am now encoding using Nero-AVC HDTC/11Mbps.

Which one do you use ?

[jg0001]

If referring to ME, my source is AVCHD as .m2ts, so I do not "re-encode" to .m2ts, like you are trying. The PS3 plays from my USB connected HDD just fine, with no noticeable chop. Copy the file to the HDD on the PS3 from whatever you have it on now (perhaps use a thumbdrive to do so) and play it from there, to ensure it's not a transfer speed issue.

If you are trying to re-encode, Nero Re-Code seems oddly limited compared to the choices you can get if you use Nero Vision, start a project, then convert each file one by one (don't finish the project, just add a file, then use the extra options at the bottom to convert the files you want, one by one).

[webvan]

Right .m2ts files play fine, but when reencoded to AVC with Nero Vision there is some kind of "strobe effect" that could be related to interlacing. I had originally tried the AVC-Cinema (720/5Mbps) and just did the HDTV (1080/11Mbps) but while the picture is sharper, the "strobe effect" is still there, aren't you seeing that on reeconded files ?

[jg0001]

You know, the one thing you need to be mindful of is that the PLAYBACK software and codecs aren't too clean yet. Anytime I'm about to futz with a driver or codec update, I make sure to back up the whole system, as I all too often end up with mangled playback thereafter. I trust the PS3 for playback 'control' and judge the final results by how it looks on that.