Any other machine that's like the Philips dvdr3576h model? DVB-T vs. ATSC

[siratfus]

Thinking of returning this thing back to Sam's Club....

The tuner that this model has, I believe it's atsc, can tune my over the air local HD channels, which I absolutely need because I mainly record laker games. I don't receive channel 9 clearly even with my cable box, I also don't receive channel 7 clearly either, and the finals will be on channel 7. The HD version for these channels are beautiful, but recording them through a "line in" will result in those black bars. That's why I love this Philips model, it records those over the air HD channels without black bars.

The sad thing is that that is the only feature I like about this machine. Or I should say, that is my main need. I do like the fact that it has 160gb, reads dvd+r dl and divx files. Everything else just sucks compared to my Pioneer dvr420hs. Especially when it's time to put it to dvd. The philips is just not intuitive. Indexing a picture for the thumbnails on your dvd menu takes forever, high speed dubbing results in lower quality. At 2hr SP mode, you still have to record in real time, whereas my pioneer will take 14 minutes. Also, at 2hr mode, picture quality on my pioneer is better.

Is there another dvd recorder with hard drive that can tune my local over the air HD channels? I see a lot with DVB-T tuners, will those work here in So-Cal for tuning over the air HD?

Please advise. Thank you!

[edDV]

Thinking of returning this thing back to Sam's Club....

The tuner that this model has, I believe it's atsc, can tune my over the air local HD channels, which I absolutely need because I mainly record laker games. I don't receive channel 9 clearly even with my cable box, I also don't receive channel 7 clearly either, and the finals will be on channel 7. The HD version for these channels are beautiful, but recording them through a "line in" will result in those black bars. That's why I love this Philips model, it records those over the air HD channels without black bars.

The sad thing is that that is the only feature I like about this machine. Or I should say, that is my main need. I do like the fact that it has 160gb, reads dvd+r dl and divx files. Everything else just sucks compared to my Pioneer dvr420hs. Especially when it's time to put it to dvd. The philips is just not intuitive. Indexing a picture for the thumbnails on your dvd menu takes forever, high speed dubbing results in lower quality. At 2hr SP mode, you still have to record in real time, whereas my pioneer will take 14 minutes. Also, at 2hr mode, picture quality on my pioneer is better.

Is there another dvd recorder with hard drive that can tune my local over the air HD channels? I see a lot with DVB-T tuners, will those work here in So-Cal for tuning over the air HD?

Please advise. Thank you!

DVB-T is the euro standard. No, it won't work for over the air ATSC.

You need an ATSC tuner for over the air and a QAM tuner for digital broadcast (SD/HD) over cable (without cable box). If 7 and 9 are on your cable, you should be able to tune them from the HD 16:9 broadcast. A DVD receorder will either downscale to wide SD or letterbox SD. Some models give you a choice.

[siratfus]

edDV, is there a way to tune channels past 125 with the Philips dvd3576h? You know how your cable box will have channels in the 200's, 300's, 500', HD's in the 700's.... This isn't possible right? I would like to know if I'm not fully utilizing the capabilites of the machine.

[orsetto]

Nope. Nada. Nyet.

The Phillips 3576 is the only DVD/HDD recorder sold in the US with an ATSC tuner. Pioneer pulled out of the US altogether rather than foot the bill for ATSC development, while Panasonic, Toshiba and Sony used the ATSC tuner expense as incentive to drop the hard drive in all their American models. For all the wonders ATSC can provide, its deployment gave consumer electronics companies the perfect face-saving excuse to stop selling DVD/HDD recorders in the US, since not enough people here were buying them anyway. It is unlikely we will see anything other than the Phillips 3576 in the US until Canada and Mexico go ATSC in a few years: that may create enough demand in our part of the world to make them saleable again. Of course, in three years flat screens and Hi Def cable will have 80% market penetration in the US, which would further erode the appeal of standard def recording, so who knows.

Why don't you connect the line outs of your Phillips to the line inputs on your Pioneer? You could pass the HD channels thru to your Pioneer that way, and use the Pioneers more intuitive editing and authoring features. Or, you could pick up one of the ATSC converter boxes for your Pioneer. It would require setting two timers, but its better than nothing if you find the Phillips unpleasant to use. (The Phillips is an amazing unit for the price, and we are fortunate Phillips resolved to serve the dwindling USA market for these devices, but many Pioneer, Panasonic and Toshiba owners feel it isn't quite their cup of tea. The drawback of a non-competitive market situation.)

[siratfus]

Nope. Nada. Nyet.

The Phillips 3576 is the only DVD/HDD recorder sold in the US with an ATSC tuner. Pioneer pulled out of the US altogether rather than foot the bill for ATSC development, while Panasonic, Toshiba and Sony used the ATSC tuner expense as incentive to drop the hard drive in all their American models. For all the wonders ATSC can provide, its deployment gave consumer electronics companies the perfect face-saving excuse to stop selling DVD/HDD recorders in the US, since not enough people here were buying them anyway. It is unlikely we will see anything other than the Phillips 3576 in the US until Canada and Mexico go ATSC in a few years: that may create enough demand in our part of the world to make them saleable again. Of course, in three years flat screens and Hi Def cable will have 80% market penetration in the US, which would further erode the appeal of standard def recording, so who knows.

Why don't you connect the line outs of your Phillips to the line inputs on your Pioneer? You could pass the HD channels thru to your Pioneer that way, and use the Pioneers more intuitive editing and authoring features. Or, you could pick up one of the ATSC converter boxes for your Pioneer. It would require setting two timers, but its better than nothing if you find the Phillips unpleasant to use. (The Phillips is an amazing unit for the price, and we are fortunate Phillips resolved to serve the dwindling USA market for these devices, but many Pioneer, Panasonic and Toshiba owners feel it isn't quite their cup of tea. The drawback of a non-competitive market situation.)

Really, I can just pick up an atsc converter box and my Pioneer will be able to tune those over the air HD channels? I didn't know that. I would rather do that than do the pass through. I love the pioneer machines. I can upgrade to one of those 250gb pioneers and buy a atsc converter box them. Can you tell I'm a novice? Please confirm, will that work?

[wabjxo]

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[edDV]

edDV, is there a way to tune channels past 125 with the Philips dvd3576h? You know how your cable box will have channels in the 200's, 300's, 500', HD's in the 700's.... This isn't possible right? I would like to know if I'm not fully utilizing the capabilites of the machine.

First understand this. ATSC has *nothing* to do with cable tuning. An ATSC tuner is useless for cable. It can only tune digital over the air broadcast channels in one of the 18 ATSC formats. DVD recorders convert all of these formats to SD DVD standard.

North American cable channels are organized into 6MHz units. The number of channels depends on the technology vintage used in your local neighborhood. Older 550 MHz systems carry fewer than 80 channels. More common 750 MHz systems carry ~120 6MHz channels and 1GHZ systems top out around 158 channels.

Lower numbered channels use analog NTSC. Typical systems (e.g. Comcast or TMC) offer about 55-75 analog NTSC channels. The higher channels are encoded with multiplexed MPeg2 QAM (quadrature amplitude modulation aka "digital cable channels"). A single 6MHz QAM channel can contain up to ~10 MPeg2 524x480 SD subchannels or about two 1080i or 720p HD MPeg2 subchannels.

Most DVD recorders have analog NTSC tuners only. If you scan a typical cable system you will find ~55-75 two digit NTSC channel selections. You would need a QAM tuner or cable box to see higher multiplexed MPeg2 channels. A DVD recorder with an NTSC and ATSC tuner still will see only the two digit analog channels.

QAM subchannels have technical addresses and virtual addresses provided by the QAM tuner. Technical addresses look something like 88.7 or 112.4. These are typically virtually numbered 1nn, 2nn, ...9nn by cable boxes or with descriptive ID's when direct tuned by a QAM tuner (e.g. KGO-DT2 or KGO-HD). Some QAM tuners ignor the descriptive ID and just report the multiplex number (e.g. 72.5 or 100.7).

Some QAM subchannels are offered without encryption. These include most local channels (including HD channels) plus others like C-Span and local government. The cable company decides which channels are offered without encryption. These are available with all cable subscription plans including basic cable service.

So, to get upper "digital" channels, you need a QAM tuner in your DVD recorder or an external QAM tuner, or a cable box. A scan will return a list of unencrypted channels that you can watch. Encrypted channels will either be missing or blank. A cable box or "cablecard" is needed to receive encrypted channels.


PS: As far as I can tell, the Philips dvd3575/3576 lacks a QAM tuner.

[wabjxo]

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[edDV]

Good to know because sales tech specs fail to mention a QAM tuner. I have very limited OTA access where I am (behind a ridge) so I must rely on a QAM tuner for locals. My interest in the Philips DVD recorder has peaked.

[wabjxo]

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[edDV]

Yea, hardly ever see QAM in mktg lit or even specs. Maybe mfgrs are wary of advertising QAM cuz of the "hide-the-channel" games cablecos play, or not wanting to interfere with their "box rental business model"???

Looking from Philips perspective, why should they take on the support when cable company support denies any knowledge of QAM tuning even though the FCC has mandated it for "must carry" locals even for homes with the most basic cable service. Also the cable industry has entered into an agreement nationwide with PBS that all subchannels will be offered over QAM* and be unencrypted.

As far as subchannel hiding, the best way to combat that is on your local AVS cable forum.


* only the main PBS channel needs to be carried in analog (NTSC).

[usually_quiet]

I just helped my elderly parents find their first widescreen HDTV, and boy do they love the QAM tuner on their new Samsung. They have a Comcast analog cable package, and there are several HD and SD local broadcast stations among the QAM offerings, though not all of them. (Titan TV's website shows their local FOX affilate as having digital SD and HD broadcasts, but so far, it hasn't shown up.) I need to look for something to record programming in case their aging VCR dies (the tuner is acting strange) and something to use to watch DVD's. I think I will look at the new Philips now that I know it has a QAM tuner. Thanks for the tip.

[edDV]

The Philips is the one with a internal hard drive + QAM tuner. There are several other DVD recorders with QAM tuners but these have no hard disk. You record directly to the DVDR.

The local Fox station (and other major networks) fall under the retransmission consent classification and are not required to be available via QAM. Each station ownership separately negotiates with the cable company. If this is a Fox owned station (O&O), they might give up local QAM availability in exchange for a block of MPeg2 channels in the encrypted digital tier (e.g. Fox News, Fox Reality, Fox Business, Fox Sports, etc.).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Must-carry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retransmission_consent

[usually_quiet]

I was definitely thinking of an HDD model. Dad has a little difficulty handling DVD's correctly.

My recommendation will largely depend on how easy it is to operate. My folks aren't computer literate and don't do well with multiple layers of menus. I'd say go for a DVR, except they wouldn't like having to connect it to a phone line, as some require, or paying a monthly fee. The ideal solution for them would be another VCR, but the situation with tuners makes their options very limited.

[wabjxo]

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[usually_quiet]

The menu system in the Philips 3575/3576 is very simple and not as multilayered as my Pio 640. Doesn't have all the "nuances" of the Pio, Panny or Toshiba.

One main menu, SETUP, that has setup and dubbing menu start points.

Set a timer program with direct-entry button, and it's like a simple VCR timer setting menu operated by arrow keys or direct number entry, as preferred, as shown here and described in the "Auto Recording with a Timer" section.

The HDD title menu shows up to 6 title index pics per page with full motion video and audio. Click a title and it plays, either from the beginning if never watched before, or from the last place you left it when viewing before and had to stop.

Click my signature for lots more info? At least read the 1st subject on 15 Top Reasons why a HDD recorder is better than a single-disc recorder?

I skimmed a couple of your artcles. (Great job, by the way.) I saw a couple of red flags with respect to overly dark video. (They have a 26" 720p TV and Comcast analog cable.) However, the ease of operation looks decent. Not much choice out there for alternatives, except a used VCR. I need to read more about it as a DVD player.

...and now I have to find a way for them to rent DVD's. They used to get them from the grocery store, but they went yesterday, and the video rental department was gone. The local library doesn't have many. It's either Blockbuster or NetFlix. They sure don't make it easy for the elderly. Thank goodness my folks aren't childless and one of us lives nearby.

[wabjxo]

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[usually_quiet]

The "dark pic" shows up ONLY on HDMI connection and primarily in those smaller-sized LCDs made originally for computers, so their true resolution is 1366x768, even tho advertised as 720p TVs (which is a true DVD video resolution). I think the vast majority of users have no problem with dark pics, and even those who do are most often videophiles who might only see some dark scenes where the detail is lost in their small 768p TVs.

Most of those 768 TVs are supposed to have a setting for computer use or DVD-Video use. One person found his labeled DTV and DVD, or some such. One setting brightened his 768 pic up.

I can reproduce that dark-pic-on-a-dark-scene on my 1080P LCD if I set my HDMI Format and RGB Range a certain way. I use the YCbCr Format and get a slightly sharper, more contrasty pic than the default RGB setting and don't see any dark pics.

I don't use HDMI for normal TV watching or playing stuff from my HDD. I use HDMI only for playing commercial movies, which look awesome. I watch TV and HDD stuff via digital composite cables cuz my cable signal is delivered to me as composite, so I let my expensive TV do the comb filering and processing to separate the video components. Works very nicely in my system.

I really don't think your folks will even notice a dark pic if they even see one once in awhile, esp. if they don't like stuff like Goth or other dark/evil stuff!

All of this is good to know. I assume you mean that playing a commercial DVD with this unit via HDMI gives an awesome picture? I definitely want something that plays them via HDMI and upconverts, if it's in the budget.

They rarely look at anything in the Gothic/Horror genres, but constantly complain about the overly dark scenes used in their favorite crime dramas, as well as the actors' muttering and whispering, if I am watching TV with them.

[wabjxo]

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[orsetto]

Really, I can just pick up an atsc converter box and my Pioneer will be able to tune those over the air HD channels? I didn't know that. I would rather do that than do the pass through. I love the pioneer machines. I can upgrade to one of those 250gb pioneers and buy a atsc converter box then. Can you tell I'm a novice? Please confirm, will that work?

Yes, that's right. Note however, it isn't as easy as just running out and buying one: right now there aren't too many choices available, and of those there are a couple with real deal-breaker "features", like having to manually fine tune every damn station as you channel surf. My advice would be to use your Phillips 3575 to tune OTA HD channels for a few more months until the feds flip the final ATSC switch: there should be a flood of converter box choices then, with good-better-best options. When they start appearing, read up on them as much as you can to be sure the one you buy has the mix of quality and features you need. Like any other consumer electronics product, these converter boxes are not "one size fits all". The excellent ATSC tuner built into the Phillips is likely to be on par with the higher-end converter box offerings that will be coming.

[wabjxo]

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[usually_quiet]

To wabjxo:
I downloaded the manual last night and did some reading about the Philips 3576's recording capabilities. It looks like my folks could manage to do most things they'd want to do themselves, though probably not everything. I'd be definitely be helping them with dubbing, for example, but I don't think they will use those features often .

I read some more of your articles too. It's a shame that digital closed captions don't record. My folks turn on closed captions once in a while, when dialog is especially difficult for them to make out. Good thing they still have analog cable. Dealing with the need for closed captions is apparently yet another of the unsolved problems in the big switch-over to digital.

I do have a question. In the manual, it says to choose HDD or DVD first, before recording. Is this a necessary step, or is the previous setting the default the next time around? My parents would be using the HDD 99% of the time, and the fewer times they have to press a button, the better they would like this machine.

They won't like the price of a new Philips 3576, but a factory re-conditioned unit (3575 or 3576) with a lower price and a reasonable waranty might be acceptable. If it can serve as a DVD player as well as record programming (especially something like a whole mini-series, or a series marathon), they might go for it. Mom would defintiely like the idea of getting rid of all the video tape casettes they have sitting around. Although they won't replace their VCR as long as it is still useful, I have to be prepared for its coming demise. ...And they never thought they would use a VCR when their kids gave them one.

[wabjxo]

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[rvfitzsimmons]

Just purchase a DVDR3576H/37 from Amazon ($294). Ran the auto channel on antenna/cable, and it appears the machine picked up 135 digital channels, but only three appear when using channel +/- on the remote. I can put in the channel number, but the numbers are different than on the Sony TV. Anyone have any idea why this happens. Thanks.

[wabjxo]

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[rvfitzsimmons]

Thanks for the quick reply. I sorted out the channel numbers. However, still don't know why the remote will not toggle station to station after auto detecting the digital channels.