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  1. Member Dr_Layne's Avatar
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    Ok, I posted a link to a tutorial on black level set up. I am a bit confused about it myself. Using a Canopus ADVC 110 and Ensoft DV, if I set the ADVC black level to 7.5IRE, it shows on Ensoft DV's waveform monitor at 0IRE. If I set the ADVC 110 black level to 0IRE, the waveform monitor shows blacks at 7.5IRE. Source is analog NTSC video. Does this sound right?

    Steve
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  2. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Dr_Layne
    Ok, I posted a link to a tutorial on black level set up. I am a bit confused about it myself. Using a Canopus ADVC 110 and Ensoft DV, if I set the ADVC black level to 7.5IRE, it shows on Ensoft DV's waveform monitor at 0IRE. If I set the ADVC 110 black level to 0IRE, the waveform monitor shows blacks at 7.5IRE. Source is analog NTSC video. Does this sound right?

    Steve
    Sounds right. Use ADVC 7.5 IRE setting for North America.

    IRE is used for analog video only. The DV waveform monitor is measuring % where 0%* equals digital level 16 and 100% equals digital level 235.


    * digital 7.5% ~ equals digital 32. This displays as a washout.
    http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/prodv/clips/blacksetup/JVC_DEMO.swf
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  3. Member Dr_Layne's Avatar
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    Thanks Ed,

    One more question:

    I have an LD-S9 LD player. It was made for the Japanese market only. If I play a North America LD thru it will it throw off the black level? Or are Japanese NTSC discs also done at 7.5 IRE?

    Steve
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  4. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Dr_Layne
    Thanks Ed,

    One more question:

    I have an LD-S9 LD player. It was made for the Japanese market only. If I play a North America LD thru it will it throw off the black level? Or are Japanese NTSC discs also done at 7.5 IRE?

    Steve
    Post a frame cap with white and black content and I'll measure it.
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  5. Member Dr_Layne's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MOVIEGEEK
    So I guess the question is: is the 7.5IRE set up done by the LD player is it encoded in the video on the disc. If I play a japanese LD on the Jap maket player, I should set the ADVC 110 to 0 IRE, but if I play i North American NTSC disc on it, I should change it to 7.5IRE correct?


    Steve
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  6. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Dr_Layne
    Originally Posted by MOVIEGEEK
    So I guess the question is: is the 7.5IRE set up done by the LD player is it encoded in the video on the disc. If I play a japanese LD on the Jap maket player, I should set the ADVC 110 to 0 IRE, but if I play i North American NTSC disc on it, I should change it to 7.5IRE correct?


    Steve
    I haven't tested it. I don't have a Japanese Laserdisc to test and I have no way to create a zero IRE laserdisc.. Washout or crushed blacks are easy to detect.

    In the case of DVD levels, the discs are encoded identically for "NTSC" and "PAL" with digital black at 16 and digital white at 235. Digital to analog conversion is done in the player to zero or 7.5 IRE.
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  7. Member Dr_Layne's Avatar
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    I played a Japanese pressed laserdisc (Roger Waters Radio KAOS video EP) on the LD-S9. I set my JVC BR-DV3000U to 0 IRE set up. The resulting DV stream was greyed out. So it seems that not all Japanese LD's are 0 IRE.

    Steve
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  8. Member vhelp's Avatar
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    Hi Dr_Layne,

    I am very fasinated with laserdisc archieving and restoration. So please don't mind my jumping
    in here and giving my 2-cents worth

    Can you post a couple of images from your laserdisc ?? It might help us find a solution. Maybe
    through a avisynth script or virtualdub plugin fulter using levels or something. Beside, I'm more
    curious about the quality aspects of your laserdisc. Make sure you are using the composite leads
    and not s-video. But,if you can post a short clip of a couple of megs that would be even better.

    Actually I've performed various capture tests using my ADVC-100 too, using my laserdisc player,
    model CLD-V2600 and I found that althoug it performed well, I did not like the granularity level.
    Instead, I went with my Winfast TV-2000 XP expert card and composite connection. You really
    can't beat this card's performance with any other when connected to a laserdisc.., you would
    almost sware it was a (clean) cable capture if not better !!

    I'll post some images here for you to get an idea of what my system is capable of. Plus, it might
    help motivate you on a different level in your work. As for me, although they now released this
    movie (blade runner) on hd/blu-ray, I still want to attempt my own ideas of "restoration" to this
    great movie, because I am at a juncture where I have now taken a slightely different path in this
    area and moved onward to video restoration (image analysis/processing) work, among other things.
    And with the addition of my programming background I am also developing NR algorithms for this
    purpose and then some.

    Anyhow, I really think that an analog capture card is your best bet. But I would theorize that it
    all depends on your laserdisc player and its capabilities and so on.

    I can't say much on the black levels for these because in my honest opinion they are very good
    captures. The levels are not showing 16-235/240 (more like 0-255) though I set my winfast card
    to IRE 7.5 in the software capture setup screen. It is possible that my winfast card did in fact
    capture at the proper levels but because these pictures came from VirtualDub's screen, there may
    be a decoder issue with that software, and I beleive that it is decoding with darker levels (different
    coefficients) during the color space conversion inside virtualdub. But do feel free to measure these
    to your hearts content

    Here are a few images for whatever they may be worth to you and your endeavor. Nothing was
    done to them other than what was noted in above paragraph.


    ** FRAME: 1152, 704x480 winfast capture via composite connections


    ** FRAME: 3314, 704x480 winfast capture via composite connections


    ** FRAME: 3438, 704x480 winfast capture via composite connections

    -vhelp 4658
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  9. Member Dr_Layne's Avatar
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    I'll give it a try when I have time to redo the cabling. My set up is in a rack system and it's very tedious to swap cables around. I have no less than 7 video sources routed thru a JVC audio/video switcher outputted thru a TBC-1000 then to a JVC BR-DV3000U DV deck and firewired to the PC.

    The LD player is connected via S-Video as well as the two SVHS decks and Hi-8 deck. The Umatic, Betcam SP, and Betamax connected via Composit. The JVC audio/Video switcher up converts to Svideo for the output to the TBC.

    The LD-S9 has an advanced comb filter, so I've always used the S-video output on it. When I get some time to move the rack, I'll reconnect the LD player directly to the BR-DV3000U

    Steve
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  10. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Dr_Layne
    I played a Japanese pressed laserdisc (Roger Waters Radio KAOS video EP) on the LD-S9. I set my JVC BR-DV3000U to 0 IRE set up. The resulting DV stream was greyed out. So it seems that not all Japanese LD's are 0 IRE.

    Steve
    The question remains whether black level shift is a function of the disc or the player. I would guess that your laserdisc was 7.5 IRE.
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  11. Member vhelp's Avatar
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    Multi equipment degeneration ...

    I honestly feel that the you do not need a TBC for laserdisc. So, you can eliminate that piece
    from the capture route. Also, it is not necessary to have more the one equipment (with very
    few exceptions) in the connection chain. It should be Laserdisc -> capture_card.

    The more equipment you have in the chain the more risk of color space conversions applied to
    your source passing through these equipments. Think if them as mini capture cards. That's
    the best analigy I can give. I recall noting this several years ago or so. And it still applies,
    today. Each card (or device) could be passing slightly different levels, be it IRE or YUV color
    space components from their respective internal calculations that were a part of the design
    for that ERA. IOW -- ITU-R BT.709, CCIR Rec 601-1, Gamma -- all that fun stuff. And if you
    are connecting equipment with varying degrees of these facts you could be inducing faulty
    levels because of this.

    Composite vs. S-Video connectins ...

    Connection should be composite because the comb filter is for the composute circuitry and not
    the s-video (or composite and s-video) I say that because I used to think the same way, that
    when my winfast was stating its unique built-in 2D-Comb filter, I thought, "Oh, thats great, it
    will do good for my composite *and* s-video -- not!" but that's what I thought, that it would
    help both. It doesn't. Only composite. So, its the same for your laserdisc player.. that the
    comb filter is (kicks in) for composite only.

    Also, you can't apply a 2D-comb filter (speaking on above) to an S-Video source because this
    medium is already separated, where-as, composite isn't, hence the benefit of a good comb
    filter

    Laser Rot ...

    My current copy of BR has signs of laser rot scattered throughout the disc. They show up
    as "single lines of white streaks" and vary in gradient from white -to- darkest, but these streaks
    can span (and do) across in the horizontal plane, and the center is the worse or whitest.

    Example: below are two examples demonstrating laser rot, 1-line, and 3-three line

    Line 1 -- - -- - -- -- - --

    Line 1 -- - -- - -- -- - --
    Line 1 -- - -- - -- -- - --
    Line 1 -- - -- - -- -- - --

    Capture equipments ...

    About the only thing that remains within me as questionable is weather or not that equpment
    ( ie, laserdisc; vcr; cable; ) are outputing:

    A -- In what color space if any: --> RGB or YUV 444 or YUV 422 or YUV 420
    B -- neither, because it is "sampling" (of which I'm a little confused about) ie, no res/color space

    -vhelp 4659
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  12. Member Dr_Layne's Avatar
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    I tried to simplify my hook up with the audio/video switcher and the TBC in the chain. But you are correct that LD's do no tneed a TBC. I will try your suggestion this week and post some results. My analog video tape devices will stay connected to the system as they do require a TBC to make captures.

    Steve
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