Upconverting CSS encrypted DVD's

[Vrex]

I have read that DSS encrypted DVD's will not be upconverted via HDMI on most upconverting players, and that the only way to upconvert these titles is to first make a backup copy (removing copy protection). Can anyone confirm this?
I don't undestand why the encryption would make any difference. After all, the DVD has to be decrypted before displaying the contents, regardless of the type of encryption used. Furthermore, a good HDTV should automatically "upconvert" all input signals to its native resolution. Can anyone shed further light on this? Thanks.
If this is true, then the value of upconverting players is greatly diminished.

[jman98]

Vrex - You mean CSS. Yes, it's true. Hollyweird scared all of the DVD player manufacturers and the rule is that if the DVD is encrypted, it cannot be allowed to upconvert the signal over HDMI. Thus the TV is forced to do the upconversion. If you have a good TV, this is not really a problem.

However, keep in mind that HDMI was demanded by the makers of HD DVD and BluRay because supposedly it is secure hardware and cannot be cracked. To date as far as I know HDMI cannot be cracked. So the video path via HDMI is completely secure. So why on earth would Hollyweird refuse to allow encrypted DVDs to upscale over impenetrable HDMI? Pure paranoia that maybe, somehow, someday their precious unbreakable HDMI might be corrupted and (gasp!) someone might find a way to record the upscaled signal. Yes, it is true that if you have an unencrypted DVD that an upscaling player will send it out upscaled via HDMI, but if your DVD is encrypted, then Hollyweird has mandated that it can only be sent out as 480i or 480p over HDMI from your player. Keep in mind that Hollyweird has no legal right to mandate this and if the manufacturers weren't so focused on being slaves to Hollyweird this would not have been an issue.

[manono]

Surely you're not telling me my beloved Oppo isn't really upconverting. And here all this time I thought...

No, I think you mean CSS encrypted DVDs can't be upscaled (legally) over component (analog). It's perfectly OK to upconvert over digital connections.

[jman98]

Surely you're not telling me my beloved Oppo isn't really upconverting. And here all this time I thought...

No, I think you mean CSS encrypted DVDs can't be upscaled (legally) over component (analog). It's perfectly OK to upconvert over digital connections.

Nope. I really mean that CSS encrypted DVDs won't be upscaled over HDMI. Lot's of people are shocked by that, but it's true. It may depend on the player, but I have a Toshiba that definitely will NOT output upscaled content over HDMI from encrypted DVDs. The player tells me so on the TV that it will only send out 480p because the content is encrypted and my only connection to the TV from the player is HDMI.

[manono]

Nope. I really mean that CSS encrypted DVDs won't be upscaled over HDMI. Lot's of people are shocked by that, but it's true.

I'm not shocked, because it's not true. Stop spreading false information. I set my player to output at 1080p over HDMI and it does.

[jman98]

Gee manono, my player told me that it was only sending 480p (yes, it is set to output 1080p) to my TV because the content was encrypted. I guess you aren't smart enough to consider that we both might be right - your Oppo might not be as slavishly tied to the entertainment industry as mine is.

[manono]

I guess you aren't smart enough to consider that we both might be right

You're the one that made patently false statements - not once, but twice - not I.

Hollyweird scared all of the DVD player manufacturers and the rule is that if the DVD is encrypted, it cannot be allowed to upconvert the signal over HDMI. Thus the TV is forced to do the upconversion.

I really mean that CSS encrypted DVDs won't be upscaled over HDMI.

Therefore we aren't both right. If you have a funky player, that's your problem.

[Vrex]

Surely you're not telling me my beloved Oppo isn't really upconverting. And here all this time I thought...

No, I think you mean CSS encrypted DVDs can't be upscaled (legally) over component (analog). It's perfectly OK to upconvert over digital connections.

manono,
I contacted OPPO about this. They confirm what you said. Here is their response (which I received very quickly, almost immediately!):
The DV-970HD, DV-980H and DV-983H supports component based upconversion, but are restricted to 480p if the source material is CSS-encrypted. Almost all commercially mastered DVDs support CSS-encryption. There are third party firmware which will defeat the CSS compliance on the DV-970HD, but these firmware are not supported by OPPO Digital, Inc.

There is no known firmware which will remove CSS compliance on the DV-980H and DV-983H.

Best Regards,

Customer Service
OPPO Digital, Inc.

[moondogger]

Yes, I have 2 different upscale DVD players connected via HDMI, they both upscale properly. I have not tried component video though.

[jman98]

I see no apologies or follow up of any kind from manono on Vrex's post. Interesting. I tried to tell him, but all I got was derision. Classy guy - not.

[SCDVD]

In some cases, a person can think his player is upconverting when it is actually the TV that is doing the upscaling. A HD TV displays at its native resolution. When it receives an input that is different than its native resolution, it converts the video to its native resolution. So a 480P input is upconverted to the TVs native resolution. It's possible for someone viewing the upconverted results to think the player did the upconversion when it was actually the TV.

[jagabo]

My HDTV tells you what the input format is when you press the Dislay button. 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, or 1080p.

[edDV]

The way this was supposed to work when HDMI/HDCP was proposed:

- Upscale would be permitted for a CSS protected disc only when HDCP was active.
- HD source (e.g. HD/BluRay or broadcast flagged) would be down downscaled unless HDCP was active.
- HD source (e.g. HD/BluRay or broadcast flagged) over analog component would always be downscaled.

There was dispute as to how much to downscale. 720x480/576 was first proposed, then 960x540 was mentioned.

Since then the following has occured.

- Broadcast flag is still not passed in Congress so broadcast HD is passed from tuners.
- Early HD/BluRay discs shipped with HDCP turned off to avoid returns and allow the formats to be established.
- Upscale of CSS DVD discs may or may not work where an HDCP connection is active. Where upscale is prohibited, 480i/480p is all that passes. The players do upscale non CSS protected disks.

[manono]

I see no apologies or follow up of any kind from manono on Vrex's post. Interesting. I tried to tell him, but all I got was derision. Classy guy - not.

Eh? Why should I have apologized or followed up when, based on the Oppo reply to his e-mail, he agreed with me:

manono,
I contacted OPPO about this. They confirm what you said.

Perhaps your TV set is an older model without HDCP. That might explain why your player refuses to upscale your DVDs. In any event, whether true or not it has no bearing on Vrex's question and doesn't make your answers any less wrong. Had you done any research at all, you would quickly have realized how wrong you were:

An HDCP-compliant source device will refuse to make a digital connection to a display or intervening device which is not also HDCP-compliant. Analog connections will work regardless -- but only at conventional, lower resolutions...But all that techy, geeky stuff aside, the big news was that these players could put out glorious 720p or 1080i signals from a DVD disc via those HDMI or DVI connections!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=4752955#post4752955

My HDTV tells you what the input format is when you press the Dislay button. 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, or 1080p.

Mine, too.

[jman98]

manono - You are 100% right and I am totally wrong. I'm not ashamed to admit that. I had to read vrex's post multiple times before I finally understood what he really said as opposed to what I thought he said.

My TV may not correctly (if at all) support HDCP. I will have to investigate that.