The goal: to capture AVI at 720x576 in virtual dub in Windows 2000 with ATI All-In-Wonder Radeon 32 DDR
I’m not a technical person and I will try to explain this in a normal language.
Remember this is just tested in Windows 2000, I now sure it’s the same result in Win98 or ME.. have’nt tried. Also remember that the CPU speed has a lot to do with if you can capture at big framesizes, you might bump into severe framedropping with low CPU speed... This is just an explanation of how to get the options POSSIBLE in Virtual Dub.
I bought the ATI All-In-Wonder 32 DDR Radeon cause I guessed my old ASUS TNT2 Ultra was’nt enough anymore and the mpeg feauters on the AIW seemed pretty cool. I have hade some serious problems with it and I’m not the onlyone from what I understand reading topics in the capture forum. I will try to explain how I installed my system and it’s working greate now. And it was’nt as hard as I thought, the forum and all the topics really confused me for a while so if you were like me thinking you’re gonna stop trying soon... don’t. For me it works.
What you’re basically doing, is sticking with the latest drivers... but let me explain:
First, my system:
Motherboard:ASUS A7V266 (VIAŽ KT266A chipset)
RAM: 768 DDRAM
CPU: AMD Athlon 1,4 Ghz
Sound Card: Delta Audiophile 2496
Graphic Card: ATI All-In-Wonder Radeon 32 DDR
OS: Windows 2000 Advanced Server with SP2
From the start I installed the Drivers from the CD I got with the card and that was the MMC 7.0. I was unsure of the Display drivers for W2K so I downloaded them from www.ati.com.
Tweaking the Mpeg settings
Download the MMC reg tool (don’t mix this with the MMC, “MMC” is the drivers from ATI and “MMC reg tool” is just a registry changer made by Stinky. Sometimes in the forum people don’t really know what they are writing about and you get confused. You could as well find the Keys and Values yourself but this program makes it easier. You’ll find it at http://stinky.dosrules.com/ This point of this program is to change the settings for the VCD and SVCD templates in TV tool in detail since the TV Tool’s not very accurate. This is not needed if you’re only gonna do AVI captures
Working with Virtual Dub
In order to get the card working with Virtual Dub you will need the WDM wrapper at this adress http://shopgeo.virtualave.net/wrapper.zip Just download, unzip and install by Rightclicking the INF file and choose "Install".
The Framesize problem
This problem I’m pretty sure has to do with the drivers, the MMC versions. It was impossible for me to capture anything bigger than 352x288 for a long time. I then downloaded the Video Capture update for DirectX 8.0 here: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/release.asp?releaseid=28377 and I was able to go with 720x288. so for some reason the MMC 7.0 has a problem with AVI captures with bigger height than 288... so this did’nt really help.
To solve this:
Install DirectX 8.1 and MMC 7.5
Download DirectX 8.1 (Already incuded in WinXP, and thats’ why XP people does’nt have the same amount of problems) which now includes the Video Capture Update so there’s only ONE file you need to download and install from Microsoft.
For Windows 2000, Get it here: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/release.asp?releaseid=33687&area=top&ordinal=9
And for Win98 or ME users, Get it here: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/release.asp?releaseid=33790&area=top&ordinal=3
WE NEED 8.1 in order to install the next application, the MMC 7.5. So be sure to upgrade to DirectX 8.1.
The MMC 7.5 was a bit of a mystery.. could’tn find it at ATI.COM and Stinky had removed it from his site .
Try here: (2002-04-11)
Now... be sure to remove the OLD MMC first before you install the MMC 7.5. There’s a pretty good explanation of the installtion order here:
http://www.pcphotovideo.com/atipage.htm I printed that one out and followed it... but I skipped the Registry parts. After installing the MMC 7.5... everything works fine...
Since 27 march 2002 when ATI released the MCC 7.6 this guide is probably outdated!
Tested & Written by Lars Netzel, 2002-02-06
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Just trying to clarify one thing here.....
You said that I only need to download and install DirectX 8.1
No need to download the Video Update?????
I'll try it tonight.. I 'm up to the "DirectX 8.0a + Capture update" stage and can cap at 720x288. So I'll upgrade to DX8.1 and MMC7.5 (If I can with my old AIW PRO 8Mb) tonight..
Hopefully you can add your method into the FAQ here,
Thank you. You are a god. Or an angel. Or both.
I just installed my AIW radeon two days ago and have been tearing my hair out trying to get something useful out of it. All I wanted to do was capture some decent-quality (ie, mpeg2) video that I could then offline-convert to mpeg4.
The sorry-a** software that ATI provides records in that terrible "VCR 2.0" format (.mp2) that seems to be a black hole! Of course it's not standard MPEG2 format... why should ATI make it that easy? You can't convert it into anything else either b/c there aren't any conversion programs!
Now, at least, I can capture into a recognized format. I'm assuming that capturing into mpeg2 with virtualdub is pretty easy? I dl'ed it but couldn't get anything to happen b/c it couldn't recognize my capture device. (I've got DirectX 8.1 installed and VirtualDub can't recognize the WDM device). So now, virtualdub should be able to capture MPEG2 fine, correct? Or do I need to dl a better codec from somwhere?
Another question I just thought of: Why do you need MMC 7.5? If you have the right devices for VirtualDub to recognize the capture device and capture video, you don't need ATI's control panel, right? Or is there something else that MMC 7.5 provides?
As a side note, I've been able to capture MPEG2 (albeit ATI's unconventional .mp2) at 480x240 and 30fps on my Celeron 300 overclocked to 450 (100MHz FSB). But I also have 768MB RAM and 10,000 RPM Ultra2-SCSI drives... think that helps?
Anyway, thanks again Lars. And if anyone knows of any more problems I might have capturing MPEG2 with VirtualDub, please let me know!
I'm afraid you can't capture MPGx with VirtualDub only AVI. But it is better (quality) to capture AVI then encode to MPG using TMPGEnc. It takes more disc space but less processing power and less frame drops are likely.
Thanx, I'm glad I helped some poeple!
To clarify.. yes.. only ONE DirectX install File.. the Video Capture Update in nowdays included in the 8.1 version.
My goal was to capture AVI at a BIG size... and that's what MMC 7.5 make possible. before that version there's a limit in height.. only 288.
No I have never tried capturing mpeg-2 with virtual dub, don't think it's possible and why.. the ATI TV Tool together with the MMC Reg tool fixes that problem. I think the TV tool is pretty good in realtime MPEG capture for this price... but it's crappy compared to an AVI capture and then encoded in TMPGenc...
I did'nt write this to cover any mpeg issues... since that works with the TV tool from the start...
OK, I feel I should clarify and update my previous post b/c I want to try to save a little face after my experiences with VirtualDub.
So you can't capture MPEG with VirtualDub -- fine. However, I can get better captures using the ATI MMC! Using MPEG2 compression in MMC, I can do 480x360 with de-interlacing and no frames dropped.
On to VirtualDub...
Trying to capture uncompressed AVI gives my disk fits. But I've got an Ultra2 SCSI 10K RPM drive! It should easily be able to handle that load, right?
At any rate, since that didn't work I decided to trade off some CPU horsepower for disk churn and went to look at compression options. But the only option I had was the DivX 4 that I had installed. I didn't think it would work on my wimpy CPU, but I set the compression speed to "Fastest" and it worked! kind of, but...
I can't record at 30 fps without major frame droppage! But the CPU load is showing only 30%-40%, and the disk isn't even breaking a sweat. What else could be causing this?
I've been reading everywhere that VirtualDub is far superior than ATI's MMC for capturing video. Yet here I'm able to do much better with MMC. Is it just the case that VirtualDub does a better job of recording AVI than MMC, yet the ATI MPEG compression is just so far superior (in terms of compression) that using it in MMC can result in no frame droppage?
Bascially, it doesn't look like I can get anything close to 30fps out of VirtualDub, with or without compression. Does anyone have any suggestions? Are there any other compression options that I need to "install" somehow?
OK, I just happened to see your latest reply. It looks like you're saying that MMC 7.5 is *required* to capture AVI in a "big" size, even in VirtualDub? Does that mean that you can't capture "big" AVI at all without 7.5, or that it doesn't work that well? I don't want to upgrade to MMC 7.5 if I don't have to (b/c of the screwed up tuner/scheduler problem), but if it should let me record AVI with no frame droppage then I might do it. But I don't really have enough space to record uncompressed AVI (only about 5-8 GB), so I pretty much need some kind of compression involved to get anything useful out of it.
Also, as an aside: I realized what my problem was with the MPEG2 files (.mp2) that MMC 7.1 created. They're perfectly valid MPEG2, it looks like -- you just have to install appropriate MPEG2 codecs! Why didn't anyone (esp. ATI) mention this?
Sorry, I realize this is getting off-topic from the "manual" theme of this forum, but I promise to put together everything I've learned into a "beginner's tutorial" for dumb people like me!
When capturing to AVI in Virtual Dub, use the Huffyuv 2.1 codec which is lossless... or MJPEG, you find both in the tools section. The are still BIG filesizes but way better to work with than uncompressed
About the MMC versions. As far As I understand it and how it worked for me... MMC 7.0 would only let me capture 352x288 in the TV tool--- and up to 720x288 in Virtual dub. but when upgrading to MMC 7.5 I suddenly got a whole new set of sizes to work with... and in Virtual Dub all the way up to 720x576 which is what I wanted in order to Capture DV CAM (Don't have firewire card)
Also DON'T capture to your System DISK.. and change the setting so that even the TEMP capture is on another disk. I noticed a 30-50% differance about this.
Well, then, what am I doing wrong (PLEASE HELP!!!!)
I have an MSI Intel 845 - p4 1,9 GHz system with 512mb Ram and two Hd (80 GB and 20) running XP
I Installed the Latest ATI Drivers and MMC 7.5 Straight away.
I also installed all the intel inf files for the chipset and the Intel Application Accelerator (which substitutes the IDE drivers).
With MMC 7.5, whatever format I try to capture to I get a HUGE frame loss in the first 5/6 seconds of capture. (i.e. upto 30%). Afterwards this drops to < 1%.
This would be OK, but, unless I then open up the resulting MP2 file with Flask and drop the first few seconds (i.e. the high frame-drop part), I can't do anything with it (except view it with ATI's awful file viewer).
Any tests with virtual dub lead to high drop frame rate (10%)...
Also with Virtual Dub I can't get no sound when capturing from the Composite-In (I'm trying to capture PayPerView of my Sat).
I've heard of people capturing DVD Q. with no dropped frames with PIII 750's ! What the HELL have I done wrong! Any suggestions please (as this saga has been going on for almost 2 years with 3 OS changes, 2 Mb changes, 2 Processor changes).
DMA enable on HD, Capture to another disk that the system disk? Capture with what codec? Try Huffyuvv... Close ALL the other programs...
About the sound.. connect the cables right... and make sure you enable record on the right input.
I for example... record directly into 1+2 Analog input on my Delta Audiophile... and set the Delta mixer to record EVERYTHING. I don't go thru the AIW card... and if you do.. make sure the cable is connected from the AIW to the Soundcard... logical!
Thanks for the Answer Inetzel.
To answer you in order:
DMA Enable - Intel Application Accelerator takes care of that (any anyway it was doing it even before I installed IAA and had the DMA enabled via OS).
Yep, I've tried closing all programs, services, etc.
The codec makes no difference (except if I capture in uncompressed!)
The funny thing is that with MMC 7.5, I managed to capture 2 hours at full res (700 something). The problem is only the first 10 secs, where you see the following
1st sec 40%dropped
2nd sec 32%dropped
3rd sec 24% dropped
4th set 15% dropped
30th sec <1% dropped
So what's basically happening is it drops like Hell on the first couple of secs and then stops dropping, and the stats average out to zero over time. It's as if it took time to do something at the beginning which screws up the capture.
What about the disk you are capturing too? Needs defrag maybe? .. I seriously don't know what the problem could be since it's only in the beginning of the capture... seems like the CPU has a problem getting started and the runs fine...
Is the sync okay after lets say.. 10 minutes? and how does the video look after capture? maybe you could live with it and starta framcaptureing a few seconds earlier.. really dull solution but I really don't know. I run a less powerful computer than you so it's not the power of the computer.. i should be a setting.
Can you capture fine in TV tool? is this only happening in Virtual Dub?
Sorry Inetzel, I wasn't clear.
It IS happening in the MMC 7.5 TV tool! I wish I could get it to start capturing a while later, but can't see how. After the first bit, capture is fine. Good video quality, sync ok, etc.
It's just that whatever happens at the beginning totally screws up the movie for everything BUT ATI's own player. The only SW that can do anything with it is Flask, if it isn't too big (i.e. over 4 GB and Flask gives up on me).
It's a fresh sys install, the disks are completely defragged (I'm using a second 20GB disk which I keep only for this purpose). It's almost as if XP was doing a sort of "Inverse Buffering" at the start. i.e. It seems to take time to realize what system requirements I need, and only gives MMC the necessary resources after a few seconds. I think the trick would be to somehow give the task full priority as soon as the capture starts.
I'll try again with virtual dub, but what settings would you suggest for the best possible Q capturing from the "Video In" from my Sat receiver?
Maybe it's useless capturing at full DVD Spec as probably the PAL signal doesn't give me that much detail anyway. I don't want to drop to 352 x 288 but whats the best necessary for PAL without loosing any detail? And what codec could I use that's fast enough just for the capture (then I could recompress with VirtualDub, Flask, Tmpegenc, whatever)?
Originally Posted by lnetzel
I have the all in wonder 128pro with 32mb and MMC 6.3
I've recently started to capture 720x576 with VirtualDub to make XSVCDs. I used to capture 352x576 but after few tests I've seen that quality is a lot better compared to 352x576 or even 480x576.
I have a AIW 128 32MB PCI under Win2000. I've installed DirectX 8.1 , the latest video drivers and MMC7.2.
I never had to use the WDM wrapper to capture with VirtualDub.
I use Huffyuv 2.1.1 codec and I've applied this patch http://www.doom9.org/Soft21/Codecs/huffyuv0.2.2.rar
This patch has fixed the CCE problems I used to have as well as speeding up the compression process by x1.5 time.
I just got VDub capture working with my ATI AIW Radeon but I noticed that anything I capture shows horizontal line blurring effect around whatever is moving. I suspected something to do with interlacing but I really don't know and can't find any settings related to this anyway.
The only video format available to me in VDub is UYVY YUV 4:2:2 Interleaved. Is this normal? I've set the frame rate at 29.97.
Any suggestions on how to relieve this problem? Thanks.
Read the new posts I added to this forum on " TweakWinME" and " Controlling Interrupts for Capture"
Your system should be fast enough to do anything and I can share your frustration that things are not working for you. Video Capture is a very special task and your processor and system need to be configured for the best performance. With the high performance system that you have you may not need to do all of these things and Iwould try the simplest first.
The main thing about MMC 7.5 is that when you start the "Capture" it is a hog on your CPU ( and mine too), but then it settles down to <1%. I think this has to do with video overlay and I haven't found a way to shut down the video overlay of MMC as I start to record.. It has to have such a function but I haven't found it.
Because of the advice of many people on this forum, I've not spent much time on direct capture with MMC 7.5, and have focused my effort on capturing AVI in VirtualDub,... which is also not a easy task for some of us. I've had nothing but problems,.. and I'm still not done.
Hope this helps you,... but watch out,... it ain't easy."Technology",...It's what keeps us all moving forward.
Link to a patch that may help with 288 resolution limit in Win2K
The original post
Tries it on my machine (Win2000) AIW Pro 8Mb (the old one).
Still works but still only at 288 (no change)
the frame size limits were ati's drivers
for i was able to capture ate 704x480 when i got the 3200 drivers for win2k
while running DirectX8, Dx 8.1 and Dx 8.1 w/ DVU
microsft had nothing to do with it
The Newer ATI drivers Addressed the problem with the frame sizes
In MMC 7.5 you can capture in ATI's proprietery codec (VCR) and convert it to MPEG2 directly within the program. But, why do it as it captures fine in MPEG-2 mode.
I had some older VCR files that converted over to MPEG nicely.
Some general comments / observations (and Questions!):
I could capture (with VFW wrapper) x480 plus resolution with VDub and MMC7.1. When I upgraded to MMC7.6 I lost the capability for large AVI capture. The ATI mpeg-2 captures seem to work much better (higher settings before dropping frames) but even through MMC only small avi seem to be supported...
Is this by design or do I need to modify my system?
By the way the problem is repeatable i.e. I can remove 7.6 install 7.1 and get support for large AVI back...
I'd like to try various MMC revisions (actually WDM drivers + other unknown system changes associated with an MMC install) but find that ATI does not seem to post "unsupported" releases of MMC.
Any ideas where such could be found (as well as a list of relevant system changes made by an ATI MMC install)?
I had answered this problem awhile ago but nobody seemed to care.
1st step is correct, get back to 7.1
in 7.1 create a custom avi profile. I use 480x480, huffy.
now there is not a choice in the selection box to do 480x480, so select 640x480. Then you have to go into regedit, hkey_current user, software, ati technologies, mutimedia, features, tv, video capture, avi. In there you'll find sections labeled with long strings that correspnd to your custom profiles. Find the one with 640 and 480 mentioned (or yor custom values). change the 640 to 480, and if I remember right it might be in two places in the same area in the registry
By the way, this does not work in 7.6, i tried.
confirm that your custom profile does indeed record with the correct format. If you are going to svcd format in the end, use the 480x480. it will be interlaced and the right size so you won't have to resize in vdub.
the avi will look funny when played, but will be perfect converted to svcd.
after that works, install 7.6 on top of 7.1 and the custom profiles will still be there.
a work of note, create all the custom avi profiles you need now, because if you need to create more you will have to remove 7.6 again.
Thanks for the response.
I was planning to send a note in today correcting my bogus post...
I stripped 7.6 put in 7.1 and found still no Vdub capture...
I stripped All ATI drivers (including video driver)
Installed driver "3102" and 7.1 set All was OK with Vdub and ATI capture of large AVI put performance was bad. I removed 7.1 (thanks for the tip re "on top of") installed 7.6 and found that Vdub still worked and ATI capture also still had the large AVI but the performance was very bad...
I removed driver 3102, installed the 6043 (latest official drivers) and found the ATI cature would not work... needed to reinstall the 5118 WDM stuff then found no more large AVI and no Vdub capture RATS!
On the good side though is that the ATI capture works much better (if you want to do real time compression) and uses very low CPU doing large size low compressed mpg (14Mbps, I only, etc).
I really wanted to capture Huff.avi but need the video driver performance of the newer drivers for other tasks. I'm not sure what to do now... I think I'll run some Qual checks on recompressing the large mpegs.
Note my "final" format is to be SVCD or DVD and I think I'll do deinterlaced capture and final for showing from computer file or progressive DVD player.
Doesn't windows 2000 advanced server use a differnt memory managment arcitecture to 2000pro or server? In some circumatances this can operate a lot more slowly?
How are have you managed to make you installation usable with video capture due to the high overheads ?
If Inetzel or any learned friend is there.
I have an AIW128 16mb pci card and installed it as Inetzel mention in his 720x576 capture guide.
Unfortunately, the max I still get for AVIs is x288.Still cannot get x576.
Why?,I'm pulling my hair and beard out!
I went through the "missing" resolution problem with a radeon 64 vivo... I thought I had stripped out old software and done clean installs but found that I must have missed something. You need to remove your old install (MMC, drivers etc.) the on new install make sure all components are part of the new set. The last time I did this was for MMC7.6 (I have not checked for newer...)
After I completed the following my system still had another copy that it wanted to load but it did "ask" so I went with the correct version...
The following is from ATI
For windows 2000 and XP:
Follow the steps below to ensure a clean install for your ATI graphics adapter;
Remove the current ATI , multimedia center and/or DVD player (if present) using add/remove programs in the control panel.
Select NO when prompted to reboot. Then remove the ATI Display Driver. Do not reboot
Double click on My comp. on your desk top. ..double click on the C drive.. double click on program files.. Delete the ati multomedia folder(if present)..DO NOT REBOOT.
Go to Start..Run...Type regedit.. Click OK .. Click on Registry
on the menu bar..Export the registry to the desktop.
Click on the plus sign beside Hkey local machine...click on the + sign beside software...delete the ATI folders
Click on the + sign beside hkey current user....click on the + sign beside software...delete any ati folders..
goto.HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows \CurrentVersion\Uninstall remove all ati keys
Exit the registry
Reboot to safe mode
During reboot, hit F8 or hold down CTRL to bring up the MS Start Up Menu.
Select safe mode.
Set Performance slider to full>> go to advance display properties click on trouble shoot.. set the slider to full
Open the Control Panel and double-click on System. Click on hardware
Then select the Device Manager Button and click on the plus + sign next to Display adapters.
Remove ALL VIDEO CARDS LISTED UNDER THE DISPLAY ADAPTER HEADING.
Remove all Monitors as well.( if present)
Also click on the + sign beside Sound Video and Games and remove everything that says ati.
Reboot to Normal Mode. Windows will detect new hardware , let it installl its drivers...reboot .. then. put ati installation CD in and install..or install the download.
( If you are only able to boot to safe mode, then you may do that and complete as many of the steps as you can starting from the beginning, in safe mode)
PLEASE NOTE THAT ANY CHANGES MADE IN THE REGISTRY IS MADE AT YOUR OWN RISK. IF YOU ARE NOT COMFORTABLE WITH THIS THEN PLEASE IGNORE THE REGISTRY PART OF THE INSTRUCTIONS.
I've already tried all of that uninstalling and registry editing business, it still doesn't work. Is it because of my actual board-the AIW128 PCI 16mb. have they stopped producing and supporting the high res720x576 avi for my card?
The old drivers support the high res but captue is very bad. I need to know whether they actually support high res in the new drivers or not!!!
Thanx anywayz Andy Haase.
I'm still dropping frames. I have a configuration similar to the one described:
Motherboard: ASUS a7M266
RAM: 512 Mb DDR SDRAM
CPU: AMD Athlon 1.2GHz
Graphics Card: ATI All-In-Wonder RAdeon
OS: Windows 2000 with SP3
On the IDE controller I have 4 IDE-units,
IDE1 master Windows OS (C), IDE1 slave (DVD)
IDE2 master Video (D), IDE2 slave (CD_RW)
I have an additional Promise Ultra 100 driver with an additional harddisk (G).
I have upgraded to ATI MMC 7.6 to capture in full resolution.
I have been trying to capture 720x576 analog video using Virtualdub and the ATI card. I can make everything work - but I drop frames. I have defragmented, the disk has been completely empty before capturing, all other programs have been stopped etc etc
But I still drops frames. The only thing I can do is drop resolution - and I won't.
So my question is. What should a reasonable IO be from my harddisks?
Using the Virtualdub benchmark tools I get a 192Mb/s Read and 24Mb/s Write on my G: drive (promise controller) and 196Mb/s Read and 18,5Mb/s Write on my D: drive.
Do I have a problem with disk IO - or should I look another place to explain frame drops?
Try the following, don't use windows 2000 advanced server its optomised for server use NOT video capturing. Use a less demanding application like AVI_IO. Don't install load of crap to your system only the nessary software for capture not virus killers, screen savers, furniture applications in systray etc. Try a live signal and see ifyou have any dropped frames. Make sure your video drives empty.
I have an OEM Radeon 9000 VIVO.
I've gotten the best results using mmc 7.7 to capture direct to 720x480 dvd quality mpg files.
I used to use VirtualDub with previous cards (lower res), but attempting to capture AVI's at 720x480 yields massive frame droppage.
There might be some VDub tweaks I can do to correct this, but I haven't been able to figure that out. If I could eliminate frame loss, then I could really tell if VDub would give me a better picture. But since I'm wanting to convert to MPG anyway (to make dvd's), I don't know that it will be worth the extra effort.
I can capture w/mmc 7.7 with no frame loss.
i'm running 1.7 ghz, 7200 rpm hard drive, 512MB ram.