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  1. Just curious. I haven't been around for a while so I'm not up on the latest techniques.
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  2. I'm a MEGA Super Moderator Baldrick's Avatar
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    Yes, just a get a all-in-one blu-ray tool like nerovision, pinnacle studio and add the dvds and convert. But what's the point? The video will reconverted so you will lose some video quality. It might be useful if you want several dvds on ONE bluray disc though but then I would wait for better h264 blu-ray all-in-one converters.

    edit: It should be possible to do dvd to blu-ray without conversion but I don't know any such blu-ray authoring software yet.
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  3. It might be useful if you want several dvds on ONE bluray disc though but then I would wait for better h264 blu-ray all-in-one converters.
    It would be very nice to have 5 DVD movies in a single 25GB blu-ray disc or 10 DVD movies in a 50gb blu-ray disc.
    Some dvd movies are very well recorded that their quality is almost on pair with blu-ray movies.
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  4. Member victoriabears's Avatar
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    But................if the disc fails (Do they really !), then you lose all that data.
    I've considered having a hard driver server in my house with all my stuff on it but again the same reason, hard drives do fail, at least if you lose one dvd disc, its only one show or movie.
    PAL/NTSC problem solver.
    USED TO BE A UK Equipment owner., NOW FINISHED WITH VHS CONVERSIONS-THANKS
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  5. Member [_chef_]'s Avatar
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    LOL, try on a BD-RE first.
    *** Now that you have read me, do some other things. ***
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  6. >It should be possible to do dvd to blu-ray without conversion but I don't know any such blu-ray authoring >software yet.

    Could you please elaborate on this? How can this be theoretically achieved?

    For what is worth, the standalone Sharp BD-HD100 can record from DVD to Blu-Ray (sorry if this has been reported before). From hddvdblog.com:

    "The BD-HD100 will be the third recorder on the market to support the Blu-ray Disc format and the first Blu-Ray recorder to feature an internal 160GB hard drive. The recorder will have twin optical drives, one for Blu-ray and the other for standard DVDs. This allows copying of content, as long as itís not copy-protected, between a DVD, Blu-ray Disc, and the hard drive. The machine can record onto rewritable single-layer BD-RE discs, which have a capacity of 25GB. This basically means that you can transfer the contents of five DVDs (4.7GB) to a single Blu-Ray disc."

    On a very important note, I coudln't find information on whether the trasfering from DVD to Blu-Ray disc will involve any kind of convertion.

    CAL
    Disco Makberto

    P.S.: Probably other Blu-Ray recorders with hard drive are capable of DVD to Blu-Ray transfering, but for some reason, the BD-HD100 is the only one with twin DVD and Blu-Ray drives I have found.
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  7. >It should be possible to do dvd to blu-ray without conversion but I don't know any such blu-ray authoring >software yet.

    Still no one knows about this? Can anybody explain the theory behind it?

    One way to do DVD to Blu-Ray without conversion *might be* via AVS DVD Copy. This software allows for ISO-image burning (as if we were dealing with an optical disc) onto BD discs. For its part, an ISO-image of a DVD can be created with MagicISO (AVS DVD Copy can also create ISO-images). While burning, AVS DVD Copy will add the files that the ISO-image contain onto the BD disc. Still, I am not clear about the structure of the resulting disc, but I suppose it is compatible.

    Please post your comments to the group.

    Carlos Albert
    D-Mak
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  8. Member PuzZLeR's Avatar
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    It's still too early to know just yet.

    I guess the question you have to ask first is, "Is a DvD compliant MPEG-2 stream also within the subset of what's compliant within blu-ray?"

    As data? Sure. Re-encoding with BD's SD specs? Sure. Playback from the built-in DvD player of BD units? Sure, possibly even if there's more than one on on empty BD disc.

    But can you just mux in the raw DvD video stream into any of the BD format structures and play it back as a regular BD disc without breaking compliancy? THIS I'd love to know. If yes, then we are only a short time away from such an app. If not, then we have to re-encode regardless.

    Today, every BD authoring program that I've encountered insists on re-encoding anything you throw at it, even streams that I know are BD compliant so I guess we need a little bit more time yet for our dream app.

    We've got some time to go before we find a way to have one 50GB BD disc with dozens of the Simpsons episodes in DvD-SD (and many more still if you re-encode to a BD compliant H.264 format...)
    I hate VHS. I always did.
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  9. Puzzler, another important question would be, "Is it possible to transfer a DVD menu to a BD disc and keep the menu the way it was on the DVD?".

    CAL
    D-Mak
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  10. Member PuzZLeR's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Disco Makberto
    Puzzler, another important question would be, "Is it possible to transfer a DVD menu to a BD disc and keep the menu the way it was on the DVD?".

    CAL
    D-Mak
    I don't think the coding language on BD's menu system is compatible with DvD. While HD-DvD was merely an extension of DvD, the BD structure was built from scratch, so a straight transfer without a good hack seems unlikely.

    Even the fact that BD units play DvDs is not officially standard, only a feature - the built-in DvD decoders are actually a different entity of the player.

    I would say, although I may be wrong, the best way to get multiple DvD images (as is, no reencoding or remuxing) to play on one BD disc in a BD player would be through the DvD decoding components inside, and nothing to do with BD really. I would think the answer lies there as a good start...
    I hate VHS. I always did.
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  11. Puzzler says:

    "I would say, although I may be wrong, the best way to get multiple DvD images (as is, no reencoding or remuxing) to play on one BD disc in a BD player would be through the DvD decoding components inside, and nothing to do with BD really. I would think the answer lies there as a good start..."

    CAL responds:

    What you are saying is related to one scenario I have thought extensively about before. You know that some DVD players have swappable IDE DVD drives...what would happen if I change such for an IDE Blu-Ray drive? Conceivably, HD stuff on a Blu-Ray disc won't be compatible as the chips inside the DVD player doesn't decode HD stuff, but what about "common stuff" for both DVD and Blu-Ray, like MPEG-2 and Dolby Digital? Will the modified DVD player decode such a Blu-Ray disc?

    As for transfering menus from DVD's to Blu-Ray discs, if a good hack is needed, well, it is still (or might be) possible. My main interest is to maintain the same menu in whatever way is possible.

    Finally, pertaining the resulting Blu-Ray disc, I wouldn't care if it is officially standard or not in asmuch as it is playable via a standalone player. To draw a parallel, I have read about some authored recordable Blu-Ray discs only playable with a PS3. Such discs are definitely not mainstream or officially supported, but they are still playable by some players (or at least by PS3).

    Take care,

    Carlos Albert L.
    D-Makberto
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  12. Member PuzZLeR's Avatar
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    You raise a good point there by swapping a BD drive into a DvD system. I have never tried it, but if the DvD internal decoding system can read it as a "disc", would it also be able to recognize that there are multiple images on this disc, or would it only read the first one, or none at all? I'd love to know if anyone's tried it.

    But honestly, standard or not, special player or not, I really don't see an issue with future players reading "multiple DvD BD discs" as the market matures.

    Although it isn't your solution, we will also be seeing BD discs with SD content on it in the future - such as 5 seasons of a TV show, etc. The only reason they are not doing it now is that the consumer mindset today is "Oh, it's not HD, so I feel ripped off."

    DvD has to start phasing out first actually. Then it would warrant justification to release SD titles on BD discs using the the BD SD spec (with quantity in mind) or releasing machines that easily play multiple, unchanged, standard DvD images on one BD disc.

    Cheers.
    Geordie.
    I hate VHS. I always did.
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  13. I agree with everything you said. However, in the case of commercial BD players reading DVD BD discs, I think that the "swapping technique" would save me quite a few bucks, assuming that it works. The again, one never knows, and maybe we will see in the future something like the era of the lower priced Apex, Sampo, et. al. DVD players but as "new brand" similarly-priced BD players.

    CAL
    D-Mak
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  14. Originally Posted by PuzZLeR
    Originally Posted by Disco Makberto
    Puzzler, another important question would be, "Is it possible to transfer a DVD menu to a BD disc and keep the menu the way it was on the DVD?".

    CAL
    D-Mak
    I don't think the coding language on BD's menu system is compatible with DvD. While HD-DvD was merely an extension of DvD, the BD structure was built from scratch, so a straight transfer without a good hack seems unlikely.
    This is not entirely correct. In fact, HD DVD disks and Blu-Ray disks had more in common when it comes to the menu structure than does HD DVD and DVD. On both formats (overly simplified) there is movie data (as with DVD) and an XML file that describes the menu structure. On Blu you can extend with Java, on HD DVD with Javascript and some other technologies.

    In order for you to put a DVD onto a Blu-Ray (or a HD DVD for that matter) you would have to rip the DVD, get the MPEG-2 stream and put this onto the disk in a way that a Blu-Ray player would understand. In the real world that would mean that you would need an authoring package that can create Blu-Ray menus.

    In theory there should be no need for re-encoding of the MPEG-2 stream at all, but I am not aware of any Blu-Ray authoring tools that do this. Then again, I am not aware that any of the more popular ones do not. You'd have to try.

    In theory this would be the steps:
    1/ Rip DVD to MPEG-2 - repeat for all movies you want
    2/ Author new Blu-Ray with menus pointing to the MPEG-2s just ripped.
    3/ Burn and play


    [qupte]Even the fact that BD units play DvDs is not officially standard, only a feature - the built-in DvD decoders are actually a different entity of the player.[/quote]

    Again, this is not even close to true. Blu-Ray mandates MPEG-2 as an encoding format, and a number of Blu-Rays have been released with MPEG-2 encoded movies. On the other hand, a Blu-Ray player uses a blue laser to read the disk, and this can not read a DVD. It needs an additional red laser to read a DVD. This was exactly the same for HD DVD, which also used a blue laser and needed an additional red laser to play DVDs.

    If you think what I am describing is that the two HD formats were very similar you'd be correct, they were very, very similar and a lot closer than either was to DVD. The main difference was disk structure and menu system, the latter which was again very similar.
    Terje A. Bergesen
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  15. Re: DVD Menu vs. Blu-Ray Menu.

    According to Scenarist, when discussing Blu-Ray menus:

    " 'Always-on' Menus - These are similar to DVD-Video menus. They are usually displayed on disc insertion or because the viewer has selected to leave the video presentation and display a menu. It is possible for video to continue playing uninterrupted in the background. "

    This has led me to think with a good degree of certainty that there have got to be a way to transfer a DVD menu to a Blu-Ray disc and keep it the way it was on the DVD.

    CAL
    D-Mak
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  16. Member PuzZLeR's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by terjeber
    In fact, HD DVD disks and Blu-Ray disks had more in common when it comes to the menu structure than does HD DVD and DVD. On both formats (overly simplified) there is movie data (as with DVD) and an XML file that describes the menu structure. On Blu you can extend with Java, on HD DVD with Javascript and some other technologies.
    I didn't realize that both HD-DvD and BD were that close, but still, the compatibility with the older DvD as far as structure is concerned is still miles off, which is what I wanted to point out.
    In theory there should be no need for re-encoding of the MPEG-2 stream at all, but I am not aware of any Blu-Ray authoring tools that do this. Then again, I am not aware that any of the more popular ones do not. You'd have to try.
    That's what I'd like to know. It's obvious that BD supports MPEG-2, even in SD rez, but can you just remux a compliant DvD MPEG-2 stream into the BD menu structure, without re-encoding it, and it will play?
    In theory this would be the steps:
    1/ Rip DVD to MPEG-2 - repeat for all movies you want
    2/ Author new Blu-Ray with menus pointing to the MPEG-2s just ripped.
    3/ Burn and play
    This would be very true if there was a compatibility with the video MPEG-2 video streams and even the menus. But it's still far too early. I know that you can use hex editing to do something like this, but without such hacks, no one seems to know.
    Originally Posted by terjeber
    [qupte]Even the fact that BD units play DvDs is not officially standard, only a feature - the built-in DvD decoders are actually a different entity of the player.

    Again, this is not even close to true. Blu-Ray mandates MPEG-2 as an encoding format, and a number of Blu-Rays have been released with MPEG-2 encoded movies. On the other hand, a Blu-Ray player uses a blue laser to read the disk, and this can not read a DVD. It needs an additional red laser to read a DVD. This was exactly the same for HD DVD, which also used a blue laser and needed an additional red laser to play DVDs.
    That was my point exactly. The fact that a BD (and even an HD-DvD player) has to employ a red laser to read DvD is the separate component I was talking about. The fact that BD includes MPEG-2 in its spec is not proof enough. We still don't know if the compliant MPEG-2 stream in DvD is compliant within the MPEG-2 SD spec of BD.
    If you think what I am describing is that the two HD formats were very similar you'd be correct, they were very, very similar and a lot closer than either was to DVD. The main difference was disk structure and menu system, the latter which was again very similar.
    Yes. I do realize now that the two were closer to each other than any was with the older DvD. I appreciate you pointing that out. I guess the marketing strategy of HD-DvD was in pointing out to DvD users that this is "a new DvD standard" while BD is something bloated, weird, non-standard and overly expensive. Maybe it did have an effect in my thinking after all.

    Disco Makberto: Do you have access to Scenarist? Personally the high price and complex functions it uses has turned me off, but can you, or someone else, rip a DvD to its demuxed streams and see if Scenarist accepts this within a BD project? Just curious.
    I hate VHS. I always did.
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  17. This has led me to think with a good degree of certainty that there have got to be a way to transfer a DVD menu to a Blu-Ray disc and keep it the way it was on the DVD
    No way...you would need to design a completely new menu. Although DVD and BD both support MPEG2, they're file structure is different. You can't rip an MPEG off a DVD and author a BD title with it.

    This is not entirely correct. In fact, HD DVD disks and Blu-Ray disks had more in common when it comes to the menu structure than does HD DVD and DVD. On both formats (overly simplified) there is movie data (as with DVD) and an XML file that describes the menu structure. On Blu you can extend with Java, on HD DVD with Javascript and some other technologies
    I'd agree with Puzzler but it all depends on what flavor of HD DVD were talking about. Standard Content HD DVD is almost exactly like DVD-Video. BDs structure is completely different while HD DVD Advanced Content has some similarities to DVD-Video.
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  18. Hello, e-Folks!

    No, I don't have access to Scenarist, unfortunately.

    Let me tell you that I don't quite understand Puzzler's statement of, "We still don't know if the compliant MPEG-2 stream in DvD is compliant within the MPEG-2 SD spec of BD". Mathematically speaking, there is some common ground if you use, for instance, MPEG-2 for video and Dolby Digital for audio.

    You see, MPEG-2 for video and Dolby Digital for audio is mandatory for both DVD and Blu-Ray disc at the same time, if you go up to the maximum permitted for DVD. For instance, a DVD video resolution of 720 x 480 and a video bitrate of 9.8Mbps is also within the Blu-Ray specifications that have maximums of 1920 x 1080 as video resolution and 40.0mbps as video bitrate. In the case of Dolby Digital (5.1 for instance) the maximum bitrate for DVD is 504 kbit/s and in the case of Blu-Ray is 604 kbit/s. So, 504 kbit/s is within the Blu-Ray specifications.

    On the other hand, if you start off with a DVD or MPEG-2 stream composed of MPEG-2 video and MP2 audio, while this is is compliant with DVD in PAL countries, it is not compliant with Blu-Ray simply because MP2 audio is not supported by Blu-Ray. Hence, in this case, you would need to converte MP2 audio to something supported by Blu-Ray.

    As for red laser reading DVD's, this is different than blue laser reading Blu-Ray discs with material that is common for both DVD and Blu-Ray technology. In essence, in this scenario, the blue laser is reading a Blu-Ray disc, and it doesn't care (or shouldn't care) if the material is both DVD and Blu-Ray compatible or just Blu-Ray compatible simply because if it still a Blu-Ray disc.

    I hope this helps.

    Cordially,

    CAL
    D-Mak

    P.S.: Most technical information has been based on Wikipedia. Thanks!

    P.P.S.: Last line should read, "because it is still a Blu-Ray disc".
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  19. The disc may not care but the tool used to build a BD title does.
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  20. Member
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    I'm curious to see if Scenarist is the real deal also.

    $5000 though... I guess I'm not that curious
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  21. Member PuzZLeR's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by poisondeathray
    I'm curious to see if Scenarist is the real deal also.

    $5000 though... I guess I'm not that curious
    Killed this cat's curiosity too. I'll wait till the consumer apps catch up thank you very much.

    @Disco Makberto: Disregarding audio for the moment (since AC-3 streams will work in BD easily) and being as obsessive as I can be, my thinking is as such: I've been encoding lots of H.264 content with Nero Recode and x264 over the last couple of years. Although these two encoders pledge full compliance with the H.264 standard, and they do comply, this does not mean that BD will accept my H.264 content although H.264 is within the BD spec.

    I have come to the (quite sad) realization that blu-ray players will not accept my content without re-encoding with a patched version of x264, or NeroVision's AVCHD encoder, etc., and will not accept my content as well because it has P 4x4, etc. I can probably save it since I didn't use excessive B/ref frames or B-pyramids, but not without a hack.

    This is my thinking for MPEG-2. Not all MPEG-2 is DvD compliant, and I wouldn't bet the farm that the MPEG-2 that's compliant in DvD is compliant in BD stream-for-stream even at the same rez, fps, etc.

    I could be wrong, but I'd love to know if Scenarist will indeed accept a DvD MPEG-2 stream within a BD project... anybody try this yet?
    I hate VHS. I always did.
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  22. $5000 though... I guess I'm not that curious
    Scenarist HDMV is much more than 5K. Try 40K..then another 40K for the BD-J add on.

    I could be wrong, but I'd love to know if Scenarist will indeed accept a DvD MPEG-2 stream within a BD project... anybody try this yet?
    Yes...it won't accept it.

    This is my thinking for MPEG-2. Not all MPEG-2 is DvD compliant, and I wouldn't bet the farm that the MPEG-2 that's compliant in DvD is compliant in BD stream-for-stream even at the same rez, fps
    Thats correct
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  23. I see what you are getting at, Puzzler. I think that what you are saying is that a BD disc can be Blu-Ray compliant and still not work with a standalone BD player. Yes, that is a possibililty. But we have got to twist the coin as well. There is the possibility that a BD disc is not totally Blu-Ray compliant and still works with a stanalone BD player. This is not always in black & white as you can imagine.

    CAL
    D-Mak
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  24. Videopoo,

    When you talk about a "Blu-Ray" menu, what kind of menu are you talking about?

    From emedialive.com, regarding Blu-Ray menus:

    "HDMV mode incorporates several types of visual menus (pop-up, multi-page, always-on) to contain information and assorted buttons for navigation and feature control. A pop-up menu can be activated over top of a playing (or paused) movie without interrupting the audio and video underneath as can a multi-page menu consisting of interconnected screens. Each is stored as an out-of-mux stream and is preloaded into the BD player's buffer before playback begins. An always-on menu is akin to that on conventional DVD and is preloaded or multiplexed with the video stream."

    From dv.com, regarding Blu-Ray menus:

    "There is also a provision in HDMV for standard Always On menus that behave more or less as menus behave in DVDs today. However, they can be programmed to transition on and off, without affecting the background video layer."

    If I understand those statements correctly, it is definitely possible to create an Always On menu on a Blu-Ray disc with the on and off transition working with the background video. And this "simple" Always On menu on a Blu-Ray disc would be pretty much the same as a DVD menu.

    Carlos Albert
    D-Mak
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  25. You can do that but it would mean creating a completely new menu in an HDMV tool. It's not as simple as creating a menu in DVD. I thought you were talking about ripping a DVD and transferring that menu to Scenarist and using the same graphics. "Always On" menus is just an Menu Object that is just that - Always On. They are not Pop -ups. You could re-create a menu from a Video-DVD onto BD but the process in design is completely different.
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  26. Member
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    Originally Posted by videopoo

    Scenarist HDMV is much more than 5K. Try 40K..then another 40K for the BD-J add on.
    USD? or pesos?

    It sounds like you are familiar with Scenarist Blu-Ray authoring, videopoo? Did your chequebook suffer the 80K hit?
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  27. >You could re-create a menu from a Video-DVD onto BD but the process in design is completely different.

    Videopoo, could you please tell me how can this be done on a general basis? Also, do we use some elements of the original DVD menu? The idea is to create a BD menu as similar as possible to the original DVD menu, graphically-wise and functionally-wise.

    CAL
    DM
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  28. [quote]It sounds like you are familiar with Scenarist Blu-Ray authoring, videopoo? Did your chequebook suffer the 80K hit?

    LOL..no. I actually use Blu-Print which one of my clients has bought. It's cheaper and more user friendly than Scenarist.

    Videopoo, could you please tell me how can this be done on a general basis? Also, do we use some elements of the original DVD menu? The idea is to create a BD menu as similar as possible to the original DVD menu, graphically-wise and functionally-wise.
    Basically you would encode a 1920x1080 stream. This will be added to your Playable Content or Title. Over that is where your Pages, Layers and Buttons lie. This is where you would place your buttons. Buttons come in three states - Normal , Selected and Activated and must be PNGs. Doom9.org is a good place to learn if you dont have access.
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  29. Originally Posted by PuzZLeR
    This would be very true if there was a compatibility with the video MPEG-2 video streams
    There is. BD is fully MPEG-2 capable, even DVD spec MPEG-2.

    and even the menus.
    A DVD menu is just a movie. A Blu-Ray player will play it as a movie. It doesn't look like a menu to a BD player, it just looks like a movie. In order to get menus to work you'd have to create new ones. The way you create menus on a Blu (or HD DVD) disk is radically different from DVD.

    But it's still far too early.
    Nah, it is not too early. We know it all right now.


    I know that you can use hex editing to do something like this,
    Nope, you can't. There is no real way to transfer DVD menus to a BD disk, you have to create new ones. Of course, some day someone may come up with a piece of software that does the conversion but this seems unlikely. You can't do it, hex editor or not, manually. A BD menu is (overly simplifies) a text file (XML) and some video etc.
    Terje A. Bergesen
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  30. Originally Posted by Disco Makberto
    >You could re-create a menu from a Video-DVD onto BD but the process in design is completely different.

    Videopoo, could you please tell me how can this be done on a general basis?
    Simple. You create a new menu, from scratch. You can use some of the same elements, graphics etc, but you are creating the menu from scratch.

    Also, do we use some elements of the original DVD menu?
    You should be. They are just MPEG-2s that's all. I don't think you'd really want to though, re-designing the menus in HD would be the logical way to go since you have to re-create the menus anyway.

    The idea is to create a BD menu as similar as possible to the original DVD menu, graphically-wise and functionally-wise.
    This is not particularly difficult, albeit you do it from scratch, you can duplicate the functionality of a DVD menu on a BD. That is in fact what the consumer tools you can buy from ULead etc do. You create a static menu. select the video you want to play or chapter you want to play and voila, you are playing it.
    Terje A. Bergesen
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