Having Trouble with DIY Telecine (8mm) System

[Leshka71]

Dave,

I found a really good software for post production. The name is vreveal. It makes a big difference. PM if you want to try it.

Regards,

Alex.

[art deco]

Hi.
New member -first post.

I tried your tricks on our Eumig 501, but with 2 problems, the picture gets upside down and also reversed when I insert a small camerachip in front of the shutter, Ill get the correct picture if I place the chip where the halogen lamp is placed and put a small lamp where the lens is.
So how do I fix this problem, I cannot have the camerachip placed where the lamp is as it´s to tight of space, so I have to use some optics or a software that reverses the picture back.
Anyone with a good tip here ?

[davemound]

Hi Art Deco
2 quick suggestions...
First is turn the camera upside down...(!!!) At least then the picture will only be inverted left to right, easily corrected in Virtualdub or suchlike.
Second is having captured some footage, use Virtualdub to both flip and invert the picture.

I think I understand your thinking here (but correct me if I'm wrong) - each 8mm film frame is very close to the size of certain camera chips, but without some intermediate optics, you'll only get close to a sharp image of the film if it's actually in perfect contact with the surface of the chip, and long term, that's probably not ideal for either the film or the camera chip.

But fundamentally for the purpose of capturing it doesn't matter if the image is upside down, or inverted, or as has been the case in some of my captures - runs backwards - all are subsequently easily corrected.

Which brings me (as an aside) to a little trick I chanced upon...

Some of my father's old film has badly damaged sprocket holes - the result of being chewed up and spat out by an ancient Kodascope Eight Model 30 projector. Typically, however, the sprocket holes have only been damaged in the forward direction (ie their leading edges have been torn, but often their trailing edges are still fine). In these cases I have deliberately run the film in reverse to get a good capture...the point being that for each successive frame to land correctly in the gate, it relies on the projector's claw pulling on that leading edge of each sprocket hole. Reverse the film and the claw is now pulling on the good edges, and the film transport works much more reliably.

(Apologies to everyone who's already worked this rather obvious ploy out for themselves many decades ago....!)

Cheers

Dave

[art deco]

Thank´s for a swift reply, davemound.

You may not belive me, but I tried to inset a usb microscop and it actually works (!!)
http://www.geekalerts.com/u/usb-micro-new.jpg
I just removed the transparant plastic ring on the USB and tweeked around 150 x magnification and got a good picture. The distance to the film is approx 2 to 2,5 cm when the USB is inserted instead of the regular optics. Of course I need a good adjustment to keep it steady but before doing anything I just wanted to see what a low budget USB would do and I got quite surprised.
Of course, I will turn the cam upside down, that was no problem at all, but the inverted picture with left and right gave me a headace.
I got this idea after seeing a video with the Eumig 501 + led and a Canon pro DSLR camera with full frame chip with very good picture, there is nothing in this guys text that he used some kind of software as solving the left to right (inverting), he just did a full speed conversion.
Here is his way of doing real time conversion:
http://blog.iso50.com/23724/convert-8mm-with-5d-mark-ii/#comments

On our Eumig 501, there is 2 ways to have the rubberbelt feed the mechanics, its obvious that it changes speed, but to what ? (I don´t have the manual),
it have fixed speeds of 9 and 18 fps where 9 is slow-motion, it takes both double 8 and super 8 with adjustable frame and the lens also have a zoom-option. In my case, I just removed the complete opticts and inserted the USB-microscope instead, the have the same diameter of 33,2mm.
So the question remains, is it possible to get the right left right with opticts or is there a need of softwere to solve that problem.
The projector gives 3 frames before feeding the next picture when I checked the rotor in normal speed, so it would be A1-A2-A3-B1-B2-B3 and so on, given the speed at 19fps in normal mode, should I then calculate 19 frames x 3 =57 frames per second where only 19 are the real frame switching ?

[Leshka71]

Dave,

What if you just flip your lifecam studio upside down? That should fix problem. And if you use CineCap it will capture your film frame by frame. So when you play your captured video, it should be fine. Am I wrong?

[Leshka71]

I just finished Lifecam Studio modification. Removed stand, usb cable rerouted to the back of camera, removed lens with autofocus block, blue led painted with black enamel paint, removed microfon and call button. I installed back a front glass in order to protect ccd chip from dust.

[jorler]

Hi
Art Deco, I am curious about how your picture comes out using the USB microscope.

I think the method of using a HD webcam with a enlarger lens is probably a better , but more tricky to build option.

regards
Clive

[davemound]

Hi Art Deco.

No, I absolutely do believe you...using a USB microscope was one of the ideas I initially considered, but I went down the road of using a webcam instead. Can you achieve HD video with your microscope?

On those particular projectors (similar to mine) the motor speed is frequency dependent, so the dual pulley arrangement is simply for achieving correct speed for either 50Hz or 60Hz mains supply. Unfortunately then, other than introducing electronics to vary the AC frequency of the motor supply, or (very questionable) introducing friction to physically slow it down) it's not possible to vary the speed of these motors. (On later models, Eumig introduced a rather whacky conical drive 'gear' which did allow for variable film speed...surely it would have been so much simpler to use a DC motor...?)
So, on a 50Hz mains supply, with the drivebelt set on the 'correct' pulleys, you get 18 frames per second (or 9 fps at half speed). Swap the belt over to the other pair of pulleys, it'll go at 5/6ths of this speed, ie 15 fps (or 7½ fps) - if my maths is correct. Synchronising perfectly to 25 fps video becomes the issue, and I'm dubious as to whether using 2 drivebelts simultaneously is the correct way to go about that...

Watching the video in the link you gave, the guy's mixed and matched various bits of different lenses. One still pic does seem to show an image on his camera LCD display as being upside down. For all we know, it might be L - R inverted also...

My thinking was rather than prat around forever trying to (in effect) synch the projector to a video camera, a better way is to contrive for a camera to take a single still image of each successive film frame. That requires some sort of 'trigger' signal sent from the projector to the camera.

It just so happens that one full revolution of the projector's stutter wheel (= one turn of the main drive pulley) corresponds to the mechanism advancing the film by one frame. Even at full speed (if you remove the shutter blades), it allows you the best part of 1/18th of a second to achieve this. Although the resulting video will be 18 fps, it will be perfectly flicker free, and post production in Virtualdub (or similar) can easily convert it to 25 fps.

Cheers

Dave

[Leshka71]

Installation of optocoupler and mouse conversion done. Thanks to James Ruben's schematic mouse conversion was easy. I installed switch and resistors inside mouse. Optocoupler connects to mouse using stereo jack. It works like charm with CineCap software.

[davemound]

Looking really good Alex...

What model projector are you using...? From the 'Be' just visible in the pic - I'm guessing Bell & Howell, and it looks like it's already got variable speed.
You're clearly progressing with this a lot quicker than I did...

Cheers

Dave

[Leshka71]

Hi Dave,

It is Bell & Howell model 253R. The original speed adjustment is mechanical and works like break pad. Unfortunately it won't allow me to reduce to low speed. I removed original mechanism and installed variable resistor that connects to DC motor speed controller. AC motor will be replaced with DC gear motor. I'm planing to use direct drive with timing belt.

Regards,

Alex.

[Leshka71]

Work progress: DC motor installed in place of old AC motor. Enclosure for LifeCam Studio is made out of rifle scope eyepiece.

[Leshka71]

Just managed to attach lens & camera to the projector:

[jorler]

Leshka, hi

I am impressed with the looks of your lens and webcam. (actually your whole setup looks cool)

I have a few questions which I am curious about:
1-What is the "dial" with numbers 1,2,3 etc just before your camera?
2-Your enlarger lens looks like it is fixed into position. Did you first find the ideal focal distance and then fix it? Is the focus adjustable at all/how do you focus?
3- We are all waiting to see what your captured frames look like

regards
Clive

[Leshka71]

Hi Clive,

Thank you for your compliments. Here are answers

1. The dial with numbers is just a part of the rifle scope that i "vandalized" for lens setup. It just covers the hole in the tube.
2. Lens is not really fixed. It screws in. This how I can adjust focus. Here are some pictures:

[Leshka71]

Here is a little test i did. It's an old russian cartoon:
https://forum.videohelp.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15279&stc=1&d=1355974596

[Leshka71]

Update:

Just did my first full telecine conversion. And I'm really proud of the final result. This is my older cousin Garry. Film was shot by my dad in 1970.

[wadiigo]

https://vimeo.com/55752598

This is a sample of one of my latest transfer efforts.

https://vimeo.com/55752598

[Leshka71]

wadiigom, it looks awesome. couple of questions: was your film in such good condition or you did some post processing? did you do it frame by frame or real time?

regards,

Alex

[wadiigo]

Hello Alex,

Thanks for checking the video out. The film was my Dad's, kept in a cardboard box for the past 50 or so years. No special care was taken so I feel fortunate that the film was in fair condition. The film was dirty so I use Film Guard to clean it. I have had good results with it.

I made my machine using the guide that has been found on the internet using the Eumig 610d projector. I don't use the Condenser Lens. I put a Raynox 250 Macro lens on my camcorder (sony tvr-340) and capture from the gate at 3 fps. I did use Avisynth post capture. I still have a lot to learn and lot of film to transfer. I would like to get a better camera and lens because I don't think I'm getting the best image possible. But the results are passable. My family is very pleased. Will keep you posted as things progress.

Mike (wadiigo)

[art deco]

..................
So, on a 50Hz mains supply, with the drivebelt set on the 'correct' pulleys, you get 18 frames per second (or 9 fps at half speed). Swap the belt over to the other pair of pulleys, it'll go at 5/6ths of this speed, ie 15 fps (or 7½ fps) - if my maths is correct. Synchronising perfectly to 25 fps video becomes the issue, and I'm dubious as to whether using 2 drivebelts simultaneously is the correct way to go about that...

Watching the video in the link you gave, the guy's mixed and matched various bits of different lenses. One still pic does seem to show an image on his camera LCD display as being upside down. For all we know, it might be L - R inverted also...

My thinking was rather than prat around forever trying to (in effect) synch the projector to a video camera, a better way is to contrive for a camera to take a single still image of each successive film frame. That requires some sort of 'trigger' signal sent from the projector to the camera.

It just so happens that one full revolution of the projector's stutter wheel (= one turn of the main drive pulley) corresponds to the mechanism advancing the film by one frame. Even at full speed (if you remove the shutter blades), it allows you the best part of 1/18th of a second to achieve this. Although the resulting video will be 18 fps, it will be perfectly flicker free, and post production in Virtualdub (or similar) can easily convert it to 25 fps.

Been away for a while (holidays), got back and took a photo-resistor that I pulled into the gate, connected in to my freq-counter and turned on the projector. The result is that the "normal speed" is exactly 55,5hz (55,5 frames/second recorded by the resistor given as Hz -divided with 3/ full shutter rotation) = 18,5 moving film f/s at 230V AC 50hz with our Eumig 501. The projector keeps the 55,5hz speed regardless if I switch to 9 or 18 f/s on the knob, as the shutter rotation speed is always the same, it is some mechanical adjust that changes the film thread in speed. This also means when doing slow motion on the knob = 9f/s, it is exactly 9,25 f/s on a full shutter rotation. When moving the belt I got as you calculated 45,6Hz (frames) = 15,2 moving f/s (shutter rotation divided with 3). If I would change the mechanics to exactly 50 hz (50 frames per second), the actual film frame movement would be 16,6 f/s = to slow for super 8/normal 8.
So now the query is, which is the simplest and best approach to record the projector and avoid flickering.

[Leshka71]

Mike,

I was thinking about FilmGuard cleaning. After some research i found Edwil Anti-Static film cleaner. I'll try using it and will post a result.

Alex.

[basil3w]

Alex-
I too have modified a LifeCam Studio as you have. I'm using a Bell & Howell MX60 dual 8 projector. My camera tube is made of lathe turned PVC.
I'm using a 50mm enlarger lens but I seem to be having trouble getting a sharp focus (it's good, not great). Would it be possible for you to
share the measurements for Film-to-lens front and lens rear-to-camera chip? Also is there a preferred lens aperture setting?
(The attached picture was taken before I added a permanent support at the camera end of the tube to ensure straightness)
Thanks,
-George

[Leshka71]

Hi George,
There is a special formula to calculate film to lens and lens to film distance, but since you have the same camera and 50mm lens i'll just share my calculation: from film gate to center of a lens - 95.45 mm and from center of a lens to ccd - 105mm. since you can't really know where the center of a lens is try to measure to the middle of lens body and adjust it so image fits the top and bottom of a screen. when adjusting sharpness try not to focus to the grain. are you capturing with 1920x1080 settings? are you using CineCap? give me some details, so i can help you more. About lens aperture - if film has same brightness f4 or f5.6 is preferred. in my case brightness was uneven, so i used f8 in order to adjust it on fly using lens aperture instead of lifecam settings. let me know if you need more help on capturing or post production. i'll be happy to help you.

Regards,
Alex.

[Leshka71]

This is the latest capture:

[basil3w]

Alex-
Thanks so much for the dimensions! I went out to the shop and turned up a new set of lens tubes and they worked wonderfully -
increasing my image size by at least 20% and a decent focus is now much easier to obtain.

I have shot a few pics at HD resolution (with the LifeCam S/W) and they look pretty good. I now have to get a gear drive DC motor
and set up a capture switch system.

No, I don't have Cinecap, and it appears as though it's going to be pretty tough to find. Do you (or anybody else out there on the
list), know of a viable capture S/W substitute?

I must say I'm impressed with the many creative approaches the builders have used to attack the problems associated with building
their T/C systems illustrated on this site. I'm sure I will continue to be something of a pest asking for advice as I get my own
system up and running.

Thanks again,
-George

[Leshka71]

George,

No problem. PM me and i'll help you with software. If you need help with motor and photocoupler setup let me know.

Alex.

[badener]

Hello to all,

I'm new here and have read your post's with big interrest.

I also will build a telecine system with a modified lifecam. My projector is a BAUER T82 and has a DC motor.
What I did: replaced the lamp with 3W LED and supply it with an adjustable power supply, the motor is supplied with a second adj. power supply. This is only for test
of LED-brightness and motorspeed at the moment.

My biggest problem is choosing the "right" lens and finding the correct distances between film, lens and camera!
Is it possible to share your experience with this - maybe some details of the lens types you use?

Many thanks and regards,

Siegfried

[Leshka71]

Hi Siegfried,
Welcome to our community. I can help you with distances, but need more information on your capturing device.. If you planning to capture directly to CCD here is a formula:

m = magnification
f = focal length
u = film distance
v = ccd distance
hu = film diagonal
hv = ccd diagonal

1/u + 1/v = 1/f
m = hv/hu = v/u = (v-f)/f = f/(u-f)
v = mu = (m+1)f
u = v/m = ((1/m)+1)f

The image size is proportional to the distance, so the larger of the CCD or film frame is farther from the lens.

Remember that the measurements are to the optical center of the lens, not the exposed element. So v and u are measured from the same center point on the lens, but you may not be able to tell exactly where that is for a multi-element lens.

Let me know if you have any question.

Regards,

Alex.

[badener]

Hi Alex,

thank you for the quick answer.
Yes I will capture directly to CCD with lifecam studio webcam and the described modifications.
The webcam and a 50mm lens will be ordered the next days.
When the parts arrive, I have todo some mechanics ...

I will respond my results here in the forum.
Maybe I have some additional qoestions, then I will ask.

Regards,

Siegfried