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  1. Member
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    Hello to all!
    This is my first and MOST defininately NOT the LAST post/question.
    I am a novice doing DVD production capturing video footage of our Sunday Services. I have been using ULEAD DVD Movie Factory for some time now. I really like it. The problem that I am having is "massaging" the audio for that ambient sound.

    I feed the signal to the computer via a DA-7 board using the record outs. It is then processed into a Athlon P4 3000+, 2Ghz 1MB Ram chip. The sound card is an ATI Rage theater video card. The signal is connected using S-Video.

    The Sound card is a SB Audigy S2 card wit surround sound capabilities.

    What I want to do (if "approved" by the members of the forum), use the Vegas software to seperate the audio and video so that I can "master" and produce a "softer" sound. This is just the beginning of my quetions. how do I convert the .dwz files into a format that Vegas will reconize or how do I get it to the .veg format?
    Thank you in advance
    Charles B aka ulremember
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  2. Member Marvingj's Avatar
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    You need a CAD Converter.
    http://www.absolutevisionvideo.com

    BLUE SKY, BLACK DEATH!!
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    I know you are not tallking about Computer Aided Drafting!

    The file extension used on ULEAD is a .dwz which I did google and found that is what it means it that app. If it should not or could not be that, how do I change it?


    TIA
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    For whatever it's worth, I've been capturing video to my PC for about 6 years now and I have no idea at all what a "CAD Converter" is.

    I don't know the answers to your questions. Sorry.
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  5. Member Marvingj's Avatar
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    Here is a good one....Acme CADConverter is DWG, DXF and DWF format conversion software for batch and vector files. It can conveniently convert DXF, DWF and DWG files into BMP, WMF, GIF, JPEG, TIFF, PNG, TGA, PCX, DXF, DWG, SVG, SVGZ, CGM, EPS, PDF, HPGL (PLT, HGL) etc., and also enable the conversion between DXF and DWG files.
    http://www.absolutevisionvideo.com

    BLUE SKY, BLACK DEATH!!
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  6. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Do you mean a Panasonic Ramsa WR-DA7 Mixer Board?

    How many channels are you outputting? One stereo pair?

    Is your goal to mix full 5.1 or stereo sound?

    What are your video sources and how are you capturing?
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  7. Member thecoalman's Avatar
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    DWZ is a propietary project file for MF in your case, you can disregard the information about CAD. You can't convert them to anything eles, and if you could they would be pretty much usleless anyway. Project files are used in just about every video application for saving the work you have done, they do not contain any assets like audio or video etc. The assets can be found wherever you have specified the application to save them to during capture.

    Simply open the video file you have captured in Vegas, after your audio work is complete then import into MF for authoring.
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  8. Member Marvingj's Avatar
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    DWZ files are project files not video files. You can open DWZ project files
    with DVD Movie Factory but you can't "convert" then to a video file to
    import into another program.
    http://www.absolutevisionvideo.com

    BLUE SKY, BLACK DEATH!!
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  9. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    You need to think of these things as RECIPES.
    DWZ and VEG, etc. are all just different formats/styles/versions of recipes (based on what kind of kitchen equipment you've got).

    These aren't the actual media assets (the cake).
    Somebody gives you a recipe, they aren't giving you the cake; and vice-versa.

    In the old days, the only way to CONVERT from one recipe style to another was via CMX EDL (text list file for on-line linear editor).
    Nowadays, it's getting much more communal, what with OMF, AAF and now MXF. Even MP4 (and subsequent), with it's asset/metafile flexmux and script capabilities could do the trick.

    Problem STILL is, you may have your 1st app where you're doing something like a PIP (picture-in-picture), but you convert it to the 2nd app style, where the 2nd app doesn' even understand WHAT a PIP is...

    So users who dare to use multiple systems end up oftentimes totally recreating the recipe, FROM SCRATCH, on the new system.

    But getting back to the OQ,
    What are you trying to achieve?
    Do you want less overall ambience? Do you want more diffuse global ambience? Less high-end in the ambience? Wanting to add in matching artificial ambience? Want to do corrective EQ?
    Most of these kinds of things are best done on the front end by correct mike choices, correct mike placement, and correct acoustical treatment.
    (I do know about this--I've been doing choral, organ, etc. recording for over 15 years).

    So you've got a "surround-capable" sound card. Do you also have a surround mike setup? Do you have a capable (and discreet) multichannel mix output? How accurate is your end-to-end monitoring (E/E vs. Encode/Decode, etc)?
    Are you relying on an internal sound card to do the A->D (this often adds digital noise via the MOBO RFI/EMI)?

    More info please...

    Scott
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    What I am trying to accomplish is capturing the live services at our church and producing DVDs. We are using three analog cameras that my dad operates as the video man. I am the FOH (if I can use that term.) We do have a Panasonic WR-DA7 board with all of the 16 channels used. I will not get into the specifics as of yet on what we are miking and how.

    I am feeding the video signal to my capture card ( ATI Rage Theater Video) via the S-Video input. I get the audio feed from the DA-7 via the stereo input on the SB Surround card ( I forgot the model). I get a very good quality of video and audio that are in sync. My next step is to try and "massage" the audio so that I get a better, softer, ambient sound. I have found that I cannot equalize the audio nor add effects using Ulead Movie. I do notice that Vegas has that ability. Oh yeah, probably another topic is this, while I was trying to capture audio and video with Vegas, which I could not do simutainously, I screwed up and clicked the "Closed Captioning" button in the options menu. Now I cannot turn it off, and the capture portion cannot open my ATI card for capture. It did prior to me clicking on Closed Captioning.
    Now, back to the description. The sound that I have is raw and rough. We have very good singers and it is not the problem of trying to make them sound better, just a lil softer with more ambience, for lack of better words !

    After the service is recorded, I edit out most of the clips so that I can put two choir songs and the message on a 4.7 DVD. I have not tried to change the quality settings as of yet so that I can get more on the DVD.

    Now, is there a way that I can use Vegas to capture the audio and video at the same time?
    Does anyone know how to turn off the "closed Captioning"? I have tried uninstalling and reinstalling. By the way, Ulead works fine when it comes to capturing

    If I am going about this all wrong, I can take the criticism.

    Thank you in advance
    Chuck aka ulremember
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  11. Member edDV's Avatar
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    So to clarify, the analog cameras go through some kind of switcher/mixer?
    You don't want to cap cameras separately for post editing?

    Why can't you use the audio board to EQ the individual Mics and subgroups?
    It stands to reason you would want a separate EQ for choir, preacher and instruments.
    Is there some kind of PA equalization issue that prevents doing it at the mixer?

    You are only desiring a 2 channel stereo mix, not 5.1 surround?

    Have you considered capturing audio and video together to DV format using a device like the Canopus 110? This will also give Vegas a timeline monitor preview and accurate audio monitoring.

    Is there a budget?
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  12. Not to get into specifics, one way to soften the sound is to mic the audience. You can set up a mic at the back of the auditorium and mix it into your dry soundboard audio output.

    Not sure how sophisticated your board is, but hopefully you can run the audience mic into the board and mix a separate output for the PC (verses what you send out to the PA).


    Darryl
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  13. Member edDV's Avatar
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    The Panasonic Ramsa WR-DA7 is a fairly full featured board. It should be capable of separate PA and recording EQ.

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    Yes we do have a video mixer, I forgot the type, but it is a good one. I do have some equalization coming through the mixing board. But the end sound is not "nice" and CD quality. Oh yeah, I am using a sampling rate of 48,000 hz. i am not tring to achive surround sound yet. I have the rec outs from the DA-7 going to the L/R inputs of the audio card.

    I guess I am trying to achieve that CD quality sound- reverb, eq ect.

    As I was saying, I think that Vegas can do that . I imported a recorded performance into it and did some nice changes. But when I tried to do the video and audio caturing with it, I ould only get video. Then I screwed up and turned on Closed Captioning, and now I cannot capture video at all.

    My brother told me to try and save the ULEAD capture as an .AVI, but I do not have that option.
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    There are some things you can do to reduce the amount of noise filtering that you need to do. It is very important to place the microphones close to the speaker or singer(s). Also, make sure that only the microphones that are actually in use are on. If you use good microphone placement and mixer practices, you shouldn't need to do much filtering. The other thing is make sure that you are using good microphones. You don't want to try to "fix" audio problems that are caused by poor microphones. In addition, make sure that you aren't over driving the audio level. It's difficult to know what you are describing without hearing it but the clipping caused by having your levels too high can also cause a "raw and rough" sound. Basically, you need to use proper placement of good microphones and correct mixer operation to deal with this.
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  16. Member thecoalman's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ulremember
    Y
    My brother told me to try and save the ULEAD capture as an .AVI, but I do not have that option.
    That won't accomplish anything. I don't understand, you have a captured file correct? What format is it in now? You only need to extract the audio and dump it into a audio editing program then use that for the soundtrack. I'm not referring to the DWZ, as I mentioned this does not contain any audio or video.
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  17. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Quick comment, more later.

    If the audio coming from the mixer is not CD quality the problem needs correction in the audio board settings. Garbage in can't be improved. If you monitor the input feed and find it high quality the problem is with your Audigy settings.

    ATI+Audigiy are not a good capture setup for Vegas. It can be made to work but will be less desirable than getting a "flat" recording from the mixer. Make audio adjustments in the audio mixer first where you have control of each mic equalization. Fine touches can then be made in Vegas.

    I suspect some of your problems are due to poor monitoring at the Vegas computer.

    Are you able to spend some money or are you stuck with just the ATI and Audigy cards?
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  18. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    Without you having gone in-depth into the mike choices and their placement and their balance, it's very hard to tell what's going on there. But I'll make a stab at it...

    So you're FOH--obviously a re-inforcement man. Using ALL 16 inputs? Tells me you've probably either got lots of Iso Lav mikes for multiple speakers or you've got a ~rock~ band setup (or both). And the bulk of what you're doing at the board is to keep the balance right and clean and to keep the feedback down while maintaining optimum SPL.
    THIS IS SOMEWHAT AT ODDS WITH HOW YOU WANT A SIGNAL FOR RECORDING.
    Sure for spoken word you want quite dry and close miked for clarity. But for "smoothness" of music you want somewhat more distant mike placement. And here's a big one:
    OFTEN BEST MIKES FOR PA ARE VERY BAD FOR RECORDING (and vice-versa).
    Without the opportunity for separate mikes altogether, you'd certainly want a separate recording submix.

    And this is the kind of stuff that should NOT have to be EQ'd or "processed" after-the fact.

    Maybe if you had a completely different mike chain with 2 or 3 cardioid mikes ~overhead front & center, and then 2 omni "hall" mikes for ambience, with a "mini"-mixer just for their balance (would also have more complete electrical isolation from PA channels--no crosstalk). This, however, depends alot upon what style of music/worship/acoustics you have--some work together well, some don't.

    As an example of some choral stuff that I've done, see my CSJD work on my DEMOs page at my website:http://www.cornucopiadm.com/scw/resume/demos.html. This is 2-track live ORTF-style on telescoping stand in "gothic" style church with choir of ~25. Barely any EQ at all.
    Is this the "smooth" that you're talking about? (Words like that are so subjective--maybe you could give some more concrete descriptions).
    "RAW" is usually an indication of mike choice/placement mismatch, EMI/RFI interference, lower quality mikes, WAY TOO CLOSE miking (especially on unseasoned talent), or weird acoustics, even more than "EQ" choices.

    More info, please...

    Scott
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    I want to thank everyone that has taken the time to assist me in my adventure.
    I really appreciate the time and advice.
    Here are the mike that we use as for now. We just purchased four Shure SM87 Beta A's. Out lectrun/pulpit mike is a Senshieser I forgot the model number, but it runs $400.00. Our three overhead phantomed power choir mikes are Audiotechnicas, about 8 years old, I forgot those models two. I have direct ins for the Keys, and piano. I am miking the bassist with a Shure 57. I am trying to get rid of his amplifier (on going struggle). I mike my brother the percussionist with a Shure SM 57 in between the congos and bongos. the drummer is miked over head with a Shure 57, and the kick drum with an OLD Nady mike. Will get gone real soon. Will probably use a Shure 57.

    Cornucopia, yes that is the sound I am looking for- "That hall sound". We have very poor acoustics at our church. Flat walls with no covering ( I am pushing for that at a later time. Like curtains or something). We are a Pentecostal Church with music that can get pretty loud and "involved") But that clarity and ambience is beautiful.

    I have on you tube a video clip that was done a while ago. you can probably still find it by searching ulremember. Also one of four 1/4 mile race cars that I wrench on. Oh yeah, you will hear the bass player over everyone, he had ans has the problem of adjusting his level when he "feels good" which messes up the mix. Also, the audio is hot and goes up and down at times because I have a hard time monitoring the levels at times. I am in a "booth" at the top of the sanctuary. you might also want to check out the "True Identity" clip. that is my brother Decond Craig Butler to check out the spoken word audio .
    Try this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_d02Y5E-wk

    I have gotten better results as of late. just have not uploaded yet. Will do so when I bring the ol' puter home again.

    Cornucopia, is that an unedited or unmassaged recording you posted?

    Well gotta go, and again everyone thank you

    Chcuk aka ulremember
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  20. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    re: clips on Demo page,
    Those CSJD ones were recorded live 2track using 2 Shure KSM-44(?IIRC?)s in ORTF positions about 18' back and 12' up, sent to Mackie Mixer, then on to Alesis Masterlink (love that device!) @ 24bit/48kHz. Editing was only clean top & tails (w/FadeInsOuts), nothing in the program itself (that's how my choir sounds). Slight Limiting applied, then Dithered Normalize, then Bitdepth reduction to 16bit & SRC to 44.1kHz for CDs. That's it. You can SEE a similar setup in a video further down the page in the [Stereo3D] section.

    re: your setup,
    SM57's and SM87s are great for OldRockInstrument stuff and Stage stuff (respectively), but I'd never use them for recording unless: (1) I had no other budget and were stuck with them, or (2) I were looking to specifically get that kind of sound.
    Really not trying to diss you, but I've NEVER found an AT mike that I didn't HATE, and I've used a lot of them (sometimes stuck with them as main mikes, too!). Sennheisers can be so-so, good, or great depending upon the model and their intended use.
    Those mikes speak of PA use, not recording use. It's not unheard of to get $2000 mikes (each, not a pair) for good recording sound--they're on a completely different level (they're also alot more fragile).

    Ok, so let's say you're ~stuck with the mikes you've already got.
    One possible thing to do is:
    1. Record a clip as nearly as DRY as possible (very close miking, with more acoustical treatments in hall--not just curtains--to get a more ANECHOIC sound. Kinda like if done raw multitrack in the studio with NO processing)
    2. Do a 2ch. clean, dry mixdown that has all the balance right. Monitor the mixdown via a combination of headphones and near-field monitors in a dry environment (not at FOH, but in a studio edit room). Maybe a little bit of EQ here.
    3. Get an audio app that can do "Reverb Impulse Convolution" and learn how to apply that to your clean mixdown. Save the finished render and --VOILA!.

    This is roughly the equivalent of taking a dry recording (along with a great HiFi playback system) to an empty, famous, acoustically beautiful music hall and "Playing back" the dry recording through the speakers, while simultaneously recording THAT with ANOTHER system that's set up in the hall.
    (And yes, I have actually done this and it works great also)

    IIRC, Sony's SoundForge can do this, as well as Plogue Bidou (sp?) and others.

    Good luck, and let us know any more we can do...

    Scott
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  21. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    Checked out the Youtube clip. Sound isn't bad (although it's strangely quieter at the beginning).

    Cool tune.
    This kind of sound SHOULD be a little dryer than my example (its more rhythmically lively, so you don't want ambience confusing the clarity of the impulses).
    Those ATs are so close that, while they are helping to isolate the choir from the instruments and hall, they're emphasizing individual voices unevenly. Better mikes moved further away, but ones which are MORE directional, might do the trick. (Or go the other extreme and get an individual mike for EACH singer and multitrack it, but that's $$$)

    Scott
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