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  1. I prefer higher frame rates (Like 48 fps IMAX) to jerky 24 fps film. But motion interpolating 24 fps film to 120/240 fps makes too many mistakes (and always will) to stand up to close examination.

    I bet the shoe would be on the other foot if film had traditionally be run at 48 fps and someone was now trying to introduce a new 24 fps format. You'd all be screaming that that jerky 24 fps was unwatchable!

    The biggest difference between film and TV is lighting techniques. Film is shot by artists who use moody lighting to their advantage. TV is shot by technicians who use bright lifeless lighting to get a "good" picture.
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  2. Member MOVIEGEEK's Avatar
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    If only Edison et al just thought of 30fps we wouldn't be in the position we are today:
    30fps film looks smooth and it conserves film(compared to 48fps).
    30fps is easily divisible into 25fps/50fps for PAL.
    30fps is easily doubled for NTSC.
    30fps is a nice round number while 24fps is funky.
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  3. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MOVIEGEEK
    If only Edison et al just thought of 30fps we wouldn't be in the position we are today:
    30fps film looks smooth and it conserves film(compared to 48fps).
    30fps is easily divisible into 25fps/50fps for PAL.
    30fps is easily doubled for NTSC.
    30fps is a nice round number while 24fps is funky.
    It was sound that forced standard frame rates in the 1930s. Film was expensive. It was the depression. Tests showed 24 fps is where most of the audience didn't barf. 30fps would add 25% to film stock cost. Still a projector gate was needed to frame repeat 24 fps to 48 or 72 fps to control flicker.

    30 fps still looks jerky to me on a normal TV. Its ok for the web where the standards are low.

    I'm not sure how you get from 30p to 25p/50p. How would you do this?
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  4. Originally Posted by MOVIEGEEK
    If only Edison et al just thought of 30fps we wouldn't be in the position we are today:
    Controversy over speed dogged silent films from the start. Thomas Edison recommended a speed of 46 frames per second- 'anything less will strain the eye.' As historian Gordon Hendricks wrote in his book "The Edison Motion Picture Myth": 'There would seem to be no good reason for it. This rate was far above any rate necessary for gaining the persistence of vision.' H.A.V. Bulleid points out, however, that Edison's decision was a sensible one: 'To obviate flicker from white light projected on a bright surface requires about 48 obscurations per second.
    http://www.cinemaweb.com/silentfilm/bookshelf/18_kb_2.htm#1
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  5. Member MOVIEGEEK's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by manono
    Originally Posted by MOVIEGEEK
    If only Edison et al just thought of 30fps we wouldn't be in the position we are today:
    Controversy over speed dogged silent films from the start. Thomas Edison recommended a speed of 46 frames per second- 'anything less will strain the eye.' As historian Gordon Hendricks wrote in his book "The Edison Motion Picture Myth": 'There would seem to be no good reason for it. This rate was far above any rate necessary for gaining the persistence of vision.' H.A.V. Bulleid points out, however, that Edison's decision was a sensible one: 'To obviate flicker from white light projected on a bright surface requires about 48 obscurations per second.
    http://www.cinemaweb.com/silentfilm/bookshelf/18_kb_2.htm#1
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    Originally Posted by breakchange
    Hi all, I went to a friend's house who recently purchased a 40 (or 42) inch LCD HDTV. Samsung brand. It had this enhancement feature called "120Hz motion" or something like that. Anyway, he showed me some hd movie channels and we were watching some drama with Sandra Bullock. The very first thing I noticed was that in scenes were there was faster/fast action such as a person just walking down a hall, the "120Hz" feature changed the action in such a way that it appeared slightly sped up to me. the explanation is that this reduces the motion blur? But the effect is that the movie at times no longer looked like a "movie" or the way I would watch it on a standard tv. And when we popped in a dvd for Batman Begins, things looked even "worse" to me. All the fast action scenes, especially the training scene on the ice, now looked like the film was shot and appeared as if it was a British soap opera or mystery drama. Is this really what HDTV's do to movies? They call it enhancing, but now to my eyes it seems I'm not watching a "movie" at all. Everything appears as if they were using a different camera/lens filter. My friend said "it looks so real now!", but I was surprised to not be impressed. I don't want the movie to look "so real". I want the movie to look like the way I watched in theaters and when I watched in on my standard tv when it still appeared on the screen like a "movie". I thought HDTV simply enhanced/enlarged/the picture quality, and not affected how the images actually "look" on screen. Can someone shed anymore light on this to me? I'm somehow now not in a rush to get an HDTV if everything now appears like they're filmed with a high end HD home video camera, and not a traditional video camera used by the original filmmakers. Someone help! Am I the only one noticing these visual subtleties? *By the way, we even changed the tv settings to disable the "120Hz motion" feature and the tv still exhibited some noticeable (by me) "speeding up"/"smoothing" of the fast motion scenes.
    personally, i'm of the exact opposite mind set: i want all the realism possible, i like an extremely clear, crisp picture, i like a realistic representation of motion, i like being able to see the freckles on someone's nose or the light peach fuzz on their face, in real life few things move so fast that they appear as a blur and fighters move in natural movements.

    the mark of a properly constructed good story is one that makes the observer believe in the plausibility of that which is being depicted even when it's clearly fiction, the story has to make the viewer believe that what they are witnessing could happen, even if deep down inside the viewer knows that it can't happen.

    realism in movies, in the form of realistic representation of motion and clear, crisp images should be encouraged and i for one am all in favor for any technology that makes me believe that what i am watching is within the realm of possibility.
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  7. The Old One SatStorm's Avatar
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    It is all about the taste: I love the "natural" effect myself. The more, the better. It's like watching theater first seat.

    I know others that hate it. That's why activation / de-activation exist.
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    I have to say I am a fan of the "older" look to films. I had the same reaction as breakchange did in that the picture has that hi-def soap opera look; I can't stand it. I just bought a Samsung 650 40" LCD TV and have been trying to find out why everything as that "video" look to it. And it's not a case of just being "overly" sensitive to the picture, which was suggested in an earlier post. It's something that anyone would notice immediately. If this is the new reality, I don't want any part of it. My question is, are all new updated HDTVs going to have this video picture type quality?
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  9. If you like the jerky 24 fps film look just turn off (or down) the 120 Hz processing. You should also turn off all the noise filtering and automatic picture adjustment filters like dynamic contrast, active color, DNIE, etc. Then calibrate the display manually.
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  10. Member Fryster's Avatar
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    So, how do plasma screens do it?

    Are they too, like LCD's, using a 120Hz refresh rate to counter motion blur and/or stutter?

    What about the whole 1080p/60 versus 1080p/24 issue? Does this phenomenon effect plasma screens as well?

    I'm shopping for a 40" or 42" HDTV at the moment and I'm currently leaning toward the richness of the plasma screens.
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  11. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Fryster
    So, how do plasma screens do it?

    Are they too, like LCD's, using a 120Hz refresh rate to counter motion blur and/or stutter?

    What about the whole 1080p/60 versus 1080p/24 issue? Does this phenomenon effect plasma screens as well?

    I'm shopping for a 40" or 42" HDTV at the moment and I'm currently leaning toward the richness of the plasma screens.
    The newer high end Panasonic plasmas have something called "600Hz Sub-field Drive". I've been meaning to see what that is exactly. I suspect it is 10x refresh of 60 fps.

    Plasmas have the same "1080p/60 versus 1080p/24 issue". They would frame repeat 24 fps 3x then 2x to reach 60 Hz. thus showing the dreaded studder. Maybe for 600Hz they are doing 24x25=600 for film and 60x10 (59.94x10) for NTSC rate source.
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    Originally Posted by breakchange View Post
    Hi all, I went to a friend's house who recently purchased a 40 (or 42) inch LCD HDTV. Samsung brand. It had this enhancement feature called "120Hz motion" or something like that. Anyway, he showed me some hd movie channels and we were watching some drama with Sandra Bullock. The very first thing I noticed was that in scenes were there was faster/fast action such as a person just walking down a hall, the "120Hz" feature changed the action in such a way that it appeared slightly sped up to me. the explanation is that this reduces the motion blur? But the effect is that the movie at times no longer looked like a "movie" or the way I would watch it on a standard tv. And when we popped in a dvd for Batman Begins, things looked even "worse" to me. All the fast action scenes, especially the training scene on the ice, now looked like the film was shot and appeared as if it was a British soap opera or mystery drama. Is this really what HDTV's do to movies? They call it enhancing, but now to my eyes it seems I'm not watching a "movie" at all. Everything appears as if they were using a different camera/lens filter. My friend said "it looks so real now!", but I was surprised to not be impressed. I don't want the movie to look "so real". I want the movie to look like the way I watched in theaters and when I watched in on my standard tv when it still appeared on the screen like a "movie". I thought HDTV simply enhanced/enlarged/the picture quality, and not affected how the images actually "look" on screen. Can someone shed anymore light on this to me? I'm somehow now not in a rush to get an HDTV if everything now appears like they're filmed with a high end HD home video camera, and not a traditional video camera used by the original filmmakers. Someone help! Am I the only one noticing these visual subtleties? *By the way, we even changed the tv settings to disable the "120Hz motion" feature and the tv still exhibited some noticeable (by me) "speeding up"/"smoothing" of the fast motion scenes.
    I know exactly what you mean. It's not just you.
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  13. Originally Posted by Abas-Avara View Post
    I have the exact same issue here with my Samsung Full HD LCD TV
    When I just bought it my nephew came over and we both saw directly the diffrence with normal TV's, he also said 'it looks real' not that is a good thing.
    Now I watch films mostly on a small 4:3 TV or Monitor
    I just bought a 46 inch hdtv with the 120hz and I am not very happy with the movies ei ther ...I never realized there would be such a difference. Everything is so sharp and crisp that it is 'too real" and does not have a "movie feel" to it...it has taken me a week to discover it is due to the 120hz....and after poking around on the settings feature, I see that I can adust the 120hz to high, low medium or turn it off.

    For the moment I elected to adjust it to low to see if the movies behave and appear more like a movie than a video...never thought I would think there could be tooo much sharpness in a picture....

    The first movie I started to watch when I first got the tv set up last week, I thought I was watching a infomercial or something like that...it is hard to explain to someone that doesnt have the 120hz....but right at this moment...I think they moved ahead too far and have made it way to sharp, so much so that it is bothersome to watch...

    Right now I am trying it on the low setting..which didnt correct the movie atmosphere completely..but it has helped a lot..in the end..I may turn it off completely. To bad they don't tell you these things when they sell you a tv.
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  14. i just got a lcd/led tv and also I don't like how movies look like they were film with a home cam..even watched a movies that i have seen before and it looked totally different, the image is nice,clear and bright but it just does not look like a movie, more like a soap.
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  15. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by stilljojo View Post
    Originally Posted by Abas-Avara View Post
    I have the exact same issue here with my Samsung Full HD LCD TV
    When I just bought it my nephew came over and we both saw directly the diffrence with normal TV's, he also said 'it looks real' not that is a good thing.
    Now I watch films mostly on a small 4:3 TV or Monitor
    I just bought a 46 inch hdtv with the 120hz and I am not very happy with the movies ei ther ...I never realized there would be such a difference. Everything is so sharp and crisp that it is 'too real" and does not have a "movie feel" to it...it has taken me a week to discover it is due to the 120hz....and after poking around on the settings feature, I see that I can adust the 120hz to high, low medium or turn it off.
    Your HDTV will always be in 120Hz mode which is good unless you like the 2:3 judder.

    The low, medium, high settings affect intermediate frame interpolation. There is only one real film frame for every 5 displayed. The other four are interpolated.

    When you select off, the real film frame is repeated 5 times which eliminates flicker similar to a 3-5x film projector gate. The motion will still be at a more stepped 24 fps film rate.
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    Okay, sorry to bump such an old thread, but this is driving me nutz.

    I work at a big box big box electronics store, and I've had this problem ever since about the time HD-DVD's hit the market. I've always though it was just a subjective effect that certain tv's have one my eyes, as I also have problems with many DLP sets (but for other reasons).

    I've been trying to find the source of what causes this phenomenon because it drives me nutz, the best way I have found to describe it to people is that certain HDTV's make it looks as though someone was standing on the movie set filming the movie with a camcorder. It makes the movie or daytime tv programming look fake (don't get me wrong, I love the hi-def detail added to HDTV, but there's something about the camera motion/angles/sound sync, that makes it unwatchable)

    At first I thought it was just particular brands (about 1/3 of the time Sony's appear this way to me) but recently all brands have models that seem to look this way. And it's not just when hooked to an HDTV source, it looks this way when watching OTA TV, bluray, dvd, hdtv, ect. Most of my friends now own a set that is newer and looks like crap to me.

    Some tv's I have this issue with are of course the 120hz, some are 240, but doesn't anyone know if this actually is what is causing this phenomenon? It could be only the LED backlit sets?

    I need to buy a new TV, and I don't want to buy one that is going to be expensive and have all the bells and whistles, but then make everything look like crap to me.

    Has anyone actually figured out what causes this, and which sets have the problem, and is it always able to be fixed or do i just need to buy a crappier set?
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  17. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Are you watching over the air broadcast, cable or sat?

    You haven't narrowed the problem down tight enough. Is it the interpolation modes described above? Did you try to turn the interpolation off?

    Film source programs (movies and TV series) have a 5 frame repeat to 119.88 Hz.

    Live TV shows (sports, news, daytime soaps, reality series, SNL) have 2x repeats 59.94 to 119.88 Hz.

    Do you see issues with 60Hz models from the same HDTV manufacturer?

    Other factors that affect image quality are deinterlace and inverse telecine. Do you see a difference between 1080i (NBC, CBS) and 720p (ABC, FOX, ESPN) channels?

    You tell us if you only see this on LED backlight TVs. How about plasmas?
    Last edited by edDV; 28th Nov 2010 at 02:11.
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  18. Member
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    Well that's the problem, narrowing it down.

    I do know that I've seen it on direcTV hd, HD Cable boxes (not sure if the problem is there with SD content), DVD, and BluRay. As far as content, it's noticeable with daytime tv (fox, abc, NBC, ect), and with film (new release DVD/blueray).


    I guess what I'm after is wether it's for sure the 120hz causing it, and if I turn off the 120hz feature to fix it, then why buy a tv that ha that feature at all???
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  19. 120Hz is good as it gets rid of the 3:2 jerkiness, as edDV explained earlier. The frame interpolation isn't necessarily good and it can easily be turned off. So, you want a 120Hz (or 240Hz) set, but if you decide you don't like the frame interpolation feature just turn it off. As far as I know you get both features, not one without the other.
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  20. Member
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    Originally Posted by manono View Post
    120Hz is good as it gets rid of the 3:2 jerkiness, as edDV explained earlier. The frame interpolation isn't necessarily good and it can easily be turned off. So, you want a 120Hz (or 240Hz) set, but if you decide you don't like the frame interpolation feature just turn it off. As far as I know you get both features, not one without the other.
    Gracias

    I'm going to play with a couple sets today at work....it's hard to tell with the demo loop they have playing though.
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    To me, this is the strangest thread re: video I've seen.

    Lots of novice and expert opinions with most thinking new TVs are just too clear.
    Makes me think of people I know that need glasses. Yet, they only wear them sometimes. What they see without them is good enough.

    Me, I'm just different. I'm constantly updating my prescriptions and even though I can see well enough to drive without glasses, I wouldn't think of it.

    At night, I sleep with my glasses under my pillow. I always want to be able to see as best as I can. So before I'm even out of bed I put my glasses on.

    When I'm watching Hidef, I like the video tape experience rather than the movie film experience. To me, movie film is old technology.

    I've seen these new clearing features and I like them. When I see a move, I want everything, foreground and background, to be crystal clear all at the same time. I don't like grain and darkness and anything that can sharpen and brighten up a picture is fine with me.

    Tony
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  22. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Paradox9 View Post
    Originally Posted by manono View Post
    120Hz is good as it gets rid of the 3:2 jerkiness, as edDV explained earlier. The frame interpolation isn't necessarily good and it can easily be turned off. So, you want a 120Hz (or 240Hz) set, but if you decide you don't like the frame interpolation feature just turn it off. As far as I know you get both features, not one without the other.
    Gracias

    I'm going to play with a couple sets today at work....it's hard to tell with the demo loop they have playing though.
    You should be able to narrow your issues to 120/240Hz vs. 60Hz or LCD vs. Plasma.

    Unless you narrow the TV types I can't help you.

    I doesn't seem to be a deinterlace issue if you see it on progressive channels.
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    Thank you all for this great discussion. I've seen more than a few TVs with this issue of 'films looking like it was shot on a video camera' - and I came here looking for answers. Excellent source of info!
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  24. Originally Posted by Paradox9 View Post
    I have found to describe it to people is that certain HDTV's make it looks as though someone was standing on the movie set filming the movie with a camcorder.
    So glad to hear you say that. Thought it was me. In Batman Begins, the scenes in the police station where they are interrogating the joker look really weird. I was watching a samsung top of the line in bestbuy and they were showing this.
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  25. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    I don't understand what all the fuss is about. In ALL the TV's I've checked, you can turn this feature off if you don't like it.

    Me, I'd take the ITVC + Frame Repeat. Automated Motion Interpolation probably is NOT ready for consumer prime time.

    Scott
    Last edited by Cornucopia; 14th Feb 2011 at 22:27. Reason: Missed major negative!!!
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  26. Not sure if this is overly basic or if someone has already said this but I had the same problem described. I went in to the TV settings not the dvd/blu ray player under:

    Menu/Picture/Picture Options/Motion Plus and switched it to off, (think it was on auto).
    I kept the digital noise and mpeg noise reduction on a low level.

    I believe this is an attempt to reduce motion blur which actually makes things that move fast easier to look at so why someone would want to remove that I don't know. Anyway solved my problems with the TV nicely. Anyway it's all subjective.

    Cheers
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    It worked for me on a new SAMSUNG 60 inch 3D TV. We watched 'About Schmidt" last night and hated the way it looked. After disabling auto motion plus it looked like it used to. Thank you.
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  28. Originally Posted by Paradox9 View Post
    Okay, sorry to bump such an old thread, but this is driving me nutz.

    I work at a big box big box electronics store, and I've had this problem ever since about the time HD-DVD's hit the market. I've always though it was just a subjective effect that certain tv's have one my eyes, as I also have problems with many DLP sets (but for other reasons).

    I've been trying to find the source of what causes this phenomenon because it drives me nutz, the best way I have found to describe it to people is that certain HDTV's make it looks as though someone was standing on the movie set filming the movie with a camcorder. It makes the movie or daytime tv programming look fake (don't get me wrong, I love the hi-def detail added to HDTV, but there's something about the camera motion/angles/sound sync, that makes it unwatchable)

    At first I thought it was just particular brands (about 1/3 of the time Sony's appear this way to me) but recently all brands have models that seem to look this way. And it's not just when hooked to an HDTV source, it looks this way when watching OTA TV, bluray, dvd, hdtv, ect. Most of my friends now own a set that is newer and looks like crap to me.

    Some tv's I have this issue with are of course the 120hz, some are 240, but doesn't anyone know if this actually is what is causing this phenomenon? It could be only the LED backlit sets?

    I need to buy a new TV, and I don't want to buy one that is going to be expensive and have all the bells and whistles, but then make everything look like crap to me.

    Has anyone actually figured out what causes this, and which sets have the problem, and is it always able to be fixed or do i just need to buy a crappier set?

    Hurray ! I am not going loopy ! I may be part of a minority but I am not nuts. Well not on this issue anyways. I just got back from a friends house and I watched a number of things and it all looked so fake I could barely watch it. Everything felt like cheap day-time TV ! The sense of each scene being a 'set piece' was so tangible...I was expecting to glimpse the film crew any moment. The actors looked like...well..just people acting ! The sense that I was watching a movie set with actors was overwhelming, all the feeling of watching a story unfold before my eyes was gone

    I watched Battle : Los Angeles, Nativity, various american comedy shows, and worst of all Batman Forever, which felt so totally fake and plastic. Whatever this is, Hertz setting, FPS, colors, the resulting effect on my brain ( yea I know..mine must be wierd) is that scenes are not improved by realism or clarity, my brain is saying.."hey this view has been tampered with and its not real!"

    Our eyes convey all kinds of subtle perspectives to our brains. Focus is just what it is meant to be, certain things in the field of vision in focus, certain things out of focus due to its position in relation to our eye lens, etc. I am not a scientist, but my brain knows when my eyes are being fed a scene that is not realistic. Not in keeping with how things look in real life.

    I accept that other people will feel differently, but for me, certain HDTV tech is causing deterioration of viewing pleasure. Without a doubt. As has been pointed out, settings can be turned off at present. I really hope our choice do do so is not lost.
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  29. Member edDV's Avatar
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    So you are saying noise and jerky motion mask weak scripts and poor acting?
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  30. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by web1design View Post
    Our eyes convey all kinds of subtle perspectives to our brains. Focus is just what it is meant to be, certain things in the field of vision in focus, certain things out of focus due to its position in relation to our eye lens, etc. I am not a scientist, but my brain knows when my eyes are being fed a scene that is not realistic. Not in keeping with how things look in real life.
    All 24p Movie/TV series production uses short depth of field lens so that is a separate issue from frame rate interpolation in the TV.
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