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  1. Hello forum,

    I've just been handed a rather large project.

    I've got 700 VHS tapes that need to be dubbed off onto DVD, producing 4 copies of the DVD, each with labels and menus created. I figure it'll probably take me about 2 years to get the whole project completed.

    However, a number of the tapes are rather old. There are TBC errors showing up and in general some are in poor condition. But since some of the footage remains the only copies in existence, a recovery must be attempted.


    Initially, I was handed a Sony VCR/DVD combo system, but it can't play the tapes without introducing a whole mess of digital artifacts every time the tape gets too messy. I ran the same tape through my Toshiba VCR at home and while some errors are rather messy, it doesn't completely drop the signal when they occur.

    I've explained to them that a large inital equipment investment will be required to obtain the best source signal.

    What would be the best equipment to use for a recovery and conversion project of this size?

    VCR, TBC, DAC, etc.

    Also, although the tapes have been kept in a relatively dry location and not subjected to temperature or humidity extremes, would they still benefit from a cleaning? What would be the best equipment to purchase for this cleaning?

    Thanks for your expertise.
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  2. Member Marvingj's Avatar
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    Check out this website and the equipment you would need for restoration, very expensive but worth it www.digitalfaq.com
    http://www.absolutevisionvideo.com

    BLUE SKY, BLACK DEATH!!
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  3. My biggest worry at this moment in time will be finding a decent VCR to use for the source readings.

    Pretty much every site I've seen lists off a series of 'amazing' VCRs that are all discontinued.

    Are there any modern products, still in production, that rank highly amongst those performing video restoration?
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  4. Member Marvingj's Avatar
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    JVC still sells svhs vcr..... www.jvc.com or check out Ebay..
    http://www.absolutevisionvideo.com

    BLUE SKY, BLACK DEATH!!
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  5. Member StuR's Avatar
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    I had/still have same problem. For VCR pesonally I prefer Panasonic SVHS model with int.TBC. I don't know how that'll be for Canada I imagine that's going to be an 1970 or 1980 model (search for models if your interested). JVC VCR's ok I suppose don't use mine though, its upto you. Most good VCR's are going to be second hand but that should be a problem if your careful. Ext.
    TBC/sync will be needed - VCR tbc's are usually not full frame, and don't have frame sync. Again lots of S/H model's some really great ex pro ones but watch for cable odd connections and lack of manuals.
    For quicker copies i.e. avoiding PC use a dvd recorder with HDD is handy. JVC are usually noted for best performance with poor VHS. Unfortunatly you may have problems finding a HDD model. There may be more chance with Toshiba who's XS range has HDD and great dvd menu creation, but apparently lake some of the VHS filtering capacity of JVC. Those are just some things to start thinking about but there's loads more if you search the forum. My old posts maybe of some use, but my equiptment is all UK PAL so that can cause more confusion.
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  6. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Quality of the equipment should outweigh the newness of the equipment. When you get into higher-end gear, you've got to understand some of it was only made for a short time, and much of it was expensive.

    This is true of cameras too (still), not just video hardware and cameras.
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  7. Here's my estimates for the physical costs of the project:

    A/V Equipment

    Panasonic AG-1980 $750 - $1700
    Datavideo TBC-1000 $500
    Canopus AVDC-300 $250 - $300
    Monster Cables $300

    Estimated Total $1800 - $2800

    Computer Equipment

    2 Mid-Range computer systems $3000
    1 for Dubbing
    1 for Encoding
    10 Burners (200 DVDs per) $1000

    Estimated Total $4000

    Materials

    2000 DVDs (20 x 100DVD spool) $3000
    1 Label printer. $300
    Cases for 2000 DVDs (.20 X 2000) $400

    Total Material Cost $3700

    Total Materials & Equipment Cost $9500 - $10550

    Time (Based on 1hr tape)

    1 hr for initial signal capture
    1/2 hr for minor edits of cataloged errors
    1/2 hr for templated menu creation
    1 hr re-encoding for DVD format into image.
    1/2 hour for review of final product.
    3-4 hours for final burn of 4 copies at slowest speed possible.
    DVD and Label creation for each tape can occur during any processing stage, provide information and graphics are available do not have to be created each time.
    I don't really know how I should figure my time into the equation. Since this is a heritage project, I figure my time investment in ensuring top quality captures and encoding will also work out to be fairly pricey.

    However, the size of the archive has dropped to around 500 tapes, with a few duplicates.

    What should I figure for my time investment for this project?
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  8. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    I would get a good quality VCR like the Panasonic AG-1980 and a stand alone Full Frame TBC like the DataVideo TBC-1000. I would use good cables although Monster cables are really overrated not to mention overpriced.

    As for the actual recording I would buy a stand alone DVD recorder. This will save you a lot of time and if you pick a good model the quality will be most excellent.

    Basically you will record to the stand alone DVD recorder but use a DVD-RW or DVD+RW then rip that to your computer. You can then use the DVD-RW or DVD+RW over again.

    Once you rip it to your computer you can (if using the correct tools) edit and author a custom DVD (using the computer's DVD burner) all without needing to re-encode ... which is the trick and the reason why you need the correct software. If you only need simple editing then TMPGEnc DVD Author will do that for you as well as the custom authoring with custom artwork and chapters etc. or you can use a MPEG-2 editor like MPEG-VCR or VideoReDo and then use any authoring program you want. However TMPGEnc DVD Author is hard to beat for ease-of-use and it just works damn well. It is however somewhat limited to how creative you can get with menu creation but I find it "good enough" in most instances. If you need something more then you will need to edit first (again using MPEG-VCR or VideoReDo) then another more robust DVD authoring program such as DVD-Lab Pro etc.

    I would strongly advise against any kind of full color disc printing system unless it is thermal direct-to-disc printing and then you are talking a ton of money. However Casio makes some very inexpensive thermal printers that have very simple printing capabilities but are perfect for text or very simple "logos" on a blank DVD disc. They work great with the "shiny silver" Taiyo Yuden DVD discs you can buy from various on-line sources such as RIMA.COM etc.

    A simple all silver disc with black text displaying the title(s) looks elegant and using the Casio thermal printers you get quality rub proof printing at a fraction of the cost of other types of printing. Not to mention that sticky labels are a big no no and inkject printing can be messy and not rub proof. Better (in my mind) to do simple disc printing ala my suggestion and if artwork is needed then do a cover and put it in a case of some sort.

    The hardest part of all of this is deciding on what brand/model of DVD recorder to buy. Not many good choices these days. I prefer the Pioneer models but to buy one new you have to either import from Asia or Canada. Toshiba made good DVD recorders with as many options as the Pioneer DVD recorders but the new crop of Toshiba DVD recorders lack many of the features of the older models.

    Anyways that is my suggestion. I would definately stay away from doing software MPEG-2 conversion. That will take FOREVER and has a HUGE learning curve.

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman

    P.S.
    You might want to take a look at some of the equipment over at the following website: http://www.signvideo.com/

    Specifically take a look at the "Single Proc Amp" and the "Image Enhancer" and maybe also the "Color Registration Corrector" although the first two are more important if you ask me.
    "The eyes are the first thing that you have to destroy ... because they have seen too many bad things" - Lucio Fulci
    EXPLORE THE FILMS OF LUCIO FULCI - THE MAESTRO OF GORE
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  9. I've got a Sony RDR VX500 that I've already nixed because it introduces a lot of digital garbage on the older tapes I'm dealing with. That was the original workhorse for this project, but a couple of test runs and some reviews convinces the funding agency that a larger investment would be worthwhile.

    However, it's got a firewire line in... would that be suitable as a hardware DVD recorder for the information coming out of the Canopus DAC?
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  10. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MorlockMan
    I've got a Sony RDR VX500 that I've already nixed because it introduces a lot of digital garbage on the older tapes I'm dealing with. That was the original workhorse for this project, but a couple of test runs and some reviews convinces the funding agency that a larger investment would be worthwhile.

    However, it's got a firewire line in... would that be suitable as a hardware DVD recorder for the information coming out of the Canopus DAC?
    You could do that although I wouldn't see the point of it much.

    Sony stand alone DVD recorders suck. Don't judge other model and makes based on your experience with the Sony.

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
    "The eyes are the first thing that you have to destroy ... because they have seen too many bad things" - Lucio Fulci
    EXPLORE THE FILMS OF LUCIO FULCI - THE MAESTRO OF GORE
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  11. I figured that the Canopus outputting firewire would allow the (already purchased) Sony to deliver decent DVD copies from the converted analog source without too many errors.

    Or are the Sony downsampling techniques for DV to DVD that bad?

    In that case, what's a good model to use for a DVD recorder? Anything that could replace the second computer and produce more managable files would be a serious bonus.

    Also, I've looked into thermal printers... Either a TASCAM P11 or a Casio CW100 seem suitable. Any previous experience with these models or brands? They're both priced similarly.
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  12. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MorlockMan
    I figured that the Canopus outputting firewire would allow the (already purchased) Sony to deliver decent DVD copies from the converted analog source without too many errors.

    Or are the Sony downsampling techniques for DV to DVD that bad?

    In that case, what's a good model to use for a DVD recorder? Anything that could replace the second computer and produce more managable files would be a serious bonus.

    Also, I've looked into thermal printers... Either a TASCAM P11 or a Casio CW100 seem suitable. Any previous experience with these models or brands? They're both priced similarly.
    A friend of mine has a Casio and it works well for him. I forget the model number but his version has a very tiny keyboard on it so you can use it without hooking it up to a computer. It also features a USB in/out so that it CAN be used with a computer. He usually uses it as a stand alone unit though as he only prints text on his CD/DVD discs. I think he paid $120 US Dollars for it. He said one ribbon does about 100 discs unless you put a lot of text on each disc then maybe a bit less. He uses it with Taiyo Yuden discs and it looks nice and is pretty much smudge free unless you really pick at it with a sharp finger nail etc.

    In short I think any of the Casio printers are good. They have another model that is cheaper as it has no built-in keyboard so it must be used with a computer. Either way I think the print quality is the same.

    As for a stand alone DVD recorder ... people fight about this all the time. I've got my eye on the DVR-340H which is an Asian model with a built-in 80GB HDD that goes for around $390 from various import websites such as 220-Electronics.com etc.

    I have an old USA model Pioneer DVD recorder that I absolutely loved but the DVD burner part died on me and the way they make them it is very expensive to get it fixed and doing it yourself is very tricky and requires an expensive Pioneer or programmable remote. So I'm buying the 340 myself when I get the money together. I think it is the best bang for the buck right now.

    The older Toshiba models were good ... specifically the RD-XS34 and RD-XS35 ... unfortunately they are hard-to-find now and even if you do find one you will have to buy a used or refurbished unit.

    The new Toshiba models may be as good as the old units but I wouldn't count on it ... plus they lack bitrate control. For instance you have a 2 hour mode and then a 4 hour mode and nothing in-between and that is just retarded. The two older Toshiba models (and the Pioneer models) have some level of bitrate control so you can set it for any recording length (usually in 5 - 10 minute increments).

    One big decision on selecting a model is how much you intend to put onto a single DVD disc. If you intend to do 2 hours or less then your choice becomes more simple. In that case you may be able to get away with one of the newer Toshiba models such as the D-R400 model which is only $149.99 US Dollars (and that is the MSRP so real world pricing is a bit less).

    For the money I would go with the Pioneer 340H if I were you. Although it is an Asian model it can do NTSC (both 0.0 IRE BLACK and 7.5 IRE BLACK) as well as PAL (which you probably won't use but hey it's a bonus). You have bitrate control for recording length adjustment ... excellent MPEG-2 conversion (best to stay under 2 1/2 hours though for "best quality") and rock stable easy-to-use functionality. In fact the TBC in the Pioneer models is good enough that if you use the Panasonic AG-1980 (which has a built-in TBC as well) you might not even need a separate Full Frame TBC unit. Although if any of the videotapes have copy protection then a separate Full Frame TBC is a must as it filters out all that copy protection garbage.

    As for the Canopus unit ... this is only useful if you really want to capture the footage to a computer and need DV AVI format. If all you are going to do is go from source to Canopus to stand alone DVD recorder ... quality will suffer. However if you need to do very extensive editing then source to Canopus to computer is the way to go as DV AVI is perfect for extensive editing. You can then send it back out through the Canopus to a stand alone DVD recorder so you don't have to do software MPEG-2 encoding. However with all that conversion back-and-forth it is easy to F things up and ruin the image quality as then you have to keep track of IRE BLACK and you are dealing with 4:1:1 DV AVI issues etc.

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
    "The eyes are the first thing that you have to destroy ... because they have seen too many bad things" - Lucio Fulci
    EXPLORE THE FILMS OF LUCIO FULCI - THE MAESTRO OF GORE
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  13. The 340 sounds solid. That should really streamline the process. I'm having most of the trouble trying to not be overwhelmed by the process of building a 2000 DVD library from random tapes of everything local.

    Panasonic 1980 new for $1699 and refurbished for $749 sound pricey?

    Should I get two?
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  14. How is the Panasonic DMR-ES35, anyways?

    Any complaints?
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  15. Member thecoalman's Avatar
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    If you're going to go through all this trouble.... IMO I'd save the captured DV-AVI's to HDD or mini-dv tape for archiving. It's going to add a lot of expense but you'll have a better format for future use if for example someone else wants to take on this project again. MPEG is a end user format.

    If you wanted to go the short route to archive to tape instead of the canopus get a mini-dv cam with pass-thru that will allow you to capture via firewire and record to tape silmuntaneously. A DV cam basically performs the same operation as the canopus, really depends on the model of cam. Some even have LTBC's like the 300. The only advantage to having a 300 is the built in noise reduction but with all the additional analog equipment you have you most likely don't need a 300 and a dv cam or Canopus 110 will suffice.

    The long route would be to capture to your computer, make your edits and any other operations you want to perform to the footage. Then either save to HDD or export out to tape on DV cam before encoding to MPEG.

    At the very least I would consider archiving the MPEG's to HDD if you can't do it with the DV-AVI's. There's no wide spread reports of disc failures but it's inevitable that they will at some point in time.

    Just a suggestion but converting 500 VHS tapes is a lot of work, might as well keep the best possible format you can get.
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  16. I'd like to be able to archive in DV to allow someone to recompile everything into a different format, but the cost and time involved may make it prohibitive.

    I've already got a Canon Elura 65 that could serve the purpose... but storing either the miniDV or the 15 GB DV files from each tape could be more than a little difficult.

    As it stands, the Panasonic 1980 and the Pioneer DVR-340H sound like my best bet for getting the material off the tapes and onto something I can edit without producing overly massive files.
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  17. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    I'd convert 500 tapes for that $10,000 USD. That's another thing to consider. If you're willing to pay somebody else, you could avoid the work and simply foot the same bill and wait time. When you start to get into the 4- and 5-digit pricing, sometimes it's easier to pay others.
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  18. Keep in mind that menu creation, labelling and a minimum of 4 copies have to be figured into the equation.
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  19. Member thecoalman's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MorlockMan
    I'd like to be able to archive in DV to allow someone to recompile everything into a different format, but the cost and time involved may make it prohibitive.
    Well there's definitely a cost factor however the time would depend on the steps you take. Simulataneously recording to tape and transferring to your comp isn't going to cost you any time, nor will storing the tranfers directly to HDD.

    When I'm doing VHS transfers I transfer to my computer HDD, edit out the crap and save to external HDD. From their I use those DV-AVI's as a source/archive, they never get edited or processed in anyway.
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  20. I'd like to be able to compile the archive in DV-AVI, but the cost of storing all that media will begin to get prohibitive.

    I think we'll end up going the VCR/DVR route, as it provides a measure of compression and makes storage easier.

    I can't pass the buck on the archive as I've been given the responsibility of overseeing the project. I'll be doing all the work myself. Also, there's no other local provider of this service and they institute isn't about to send away 500 priceless VHS tapes and risking damaging the only remaining copies of their material. I'll be doing all the work from within the archive itself.

    Considering the fact that I'm basically building a video library out of raw footage, combined with the label/menu creation for each of the 4 DVD sets, I'm estimating my time involvement to work out around $25,000 plus an inital investment of about $6-7 grand in equipment and materials cost. (The equipment will belong to the archive at the end of the day.)

    I've got a meeting tomorrow where I'll be outlining the basics of the project before I complete my proposal, and those are the numbers I'm going with so far.
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  21. Member thecoalman's Avatar
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    I wasn't suggested handing the project off to someone else, the point I'm trying to make is DVD is end user format and having a archive in the less compressed DV-AVI format is preferable to MPEG. You get compression with MPEG but that comes at a price. If it's "priceless" material then you should consider archiving in a less compressed format for the future.

    Doing some quick calculations, 500gb hardrive is about $125. That's an additonal $3500 assuming each VHS tape is 2 hours in length.. Steep but if you can do it I would.

    On the other hand doing it with a VCR/DVR is definitely going to be much quicker.
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  22. It's a trade-off. I'd rather be archiving in DV than MPEG, but if their budget hits the wall before they can even think about longterm DV storage then that side of the project will probably be canned.

    I'll be explaining the advantages of both systems to them tomorrow, and then I'll see where we go from there.
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  23. Member StuR's Avatar
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    MM, haven't time to read all the replies yet but a quick look at your bill of costs and I'd say 'way to high'
    for a start Monster cables, loads of cables on ebay as long as there Thick ie lots of sheilding don't be worried about a perticular branding, gold ends handy but I think thats mainly to stop corresion (wipe contacts with alcohol to clean if needed)
    Also if your happy with ebay you'd do better to buy as cheap as possible (look in to sniping sites for super last minuite bids), if you have problems with equipment you can sell on for another try. If you careful you shouldn't have too many faulty buys though I've had some good deals.
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  24. I've got a line on a new Panasonic 1980 for $1700... I'd look for deals, but since it's not my money and it's an archival project, I'll shoot for the best equipment I can find.

    I realize the monster cables are priced too high, but I left that into the proposal to show them how important each piece of equipment can be.

    As it stands, it looks like I'll be ripping into DV, filling up about $3000 worth of hard drives.

    The total cost of the project has been estimated around $45,000, with $25,000 as my time investment, plus $20,000 for materials and equipment. I've also got a clause for negotiation worked into the contract so that after a month of work I can renegotiate various aspects of the deal. If it were all good quality tapes, it wouldn't be an issue, but the good majority of these tapes are of poor quality, which makes for tedious work.

    How often should I be cleaning the heads of this VCR? Every dozen tapes or so?
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  25. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    Why are you going DV first then MPEG-2 DVD?

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
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  26. I have a huge vhs to dvd collection issue as well,,these are my findings.

    Not many of my vhs's need special treatment, you have to make a decision , do you want to create something perfect or very watchable, there is a huge time saving/frustration aspect to the 2nd choice.
    The panasonic es45 range of vhs/dvd combos produce very good results, I have tried hauppauge pvr250's and advc300 and you only need that level of equipment if the tapes are bad.

    Where in Canada are you?,,may be we can buddy up !
    The JVC s vhs vcr's like the 9800/9911 are not always the answer.

    http://www.costco.ca/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=10301160&whse=BCCA&Ne=4000000& eCat=BCCA|79|81&N=4008761&Mo=5&No=1&Nr=P_CatalogNa me:BCCA&cat=4477&Ns=P_Price|1||P_SignDesc1&lang=en-CA&Sp=C&topnav=

    I have spoken to people at my local costco and folks really like this model.

    My own experience is that Toshibas are good as well, JVC can be picky with media, but are good quality recorders, difficult to get in Canada,

    http://www.ecost.com/ecost/ecce/category/Category.aspx?Category=155435912

    works very well as they include any duties to Canada.
    PAL/NTSC problem solver.
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  27. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    I didn't realize that the person that started this thread was in Canada. Me bad. You can still buy Pioneer DVD recorders (brand new) in Canada. They are the latest and greatest from Pioneer. No need to order an Asian model as I can suggested in another post here.

    Again I think direct to DVD recorder is the best approach with such a large volume. You can still edit if need be and re-author on a computer by using DVD-RW or DVD+RW discs (to go from DVD recorder to computer). The final DVD burned on the computer can be DVD-R or DVD+R etc.

    When I say "direct to DVD recorder" you can still use a TBC in between or other image enhancement devices. The point is that the transfer is done real time.

    With DV you have to do the capture/conversion in real time then do software MPEG-2 DVD encoding on the computer. This can take a long time. It can be faster than real time but as soon as you start adding filters etc. it can also be slower than real time.

    So I guess what I am saying to the original poster: consider the time factor and remember that there is nothing "wrong" with going direct to MPEG-2 DVD and bypassing the DV AVI format.

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
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  28. Member thecoalman's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by FulciLives
    It can be faster than real time but as soon as you start adding filters etc. it can also be slower than real time.
    Kind of the point for DV-AVI, you'll get better results in the end plus you have better material for future which is why I suggested it to begin with. MPEG should not be used for creating archives. Just my opinon of course. Besides I don't think it will be long before you see DV-AVI capable players mainstream. It's too prevalent a format.

    Having said that you just need a production line mentality for such a large project, Capture and edit out the crap during the day, set up a batch filter/encode for overnight. Edit: May even be faster method because you don't have to rip the disc to drive...
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  29. I'll be encoding in DV simply for the archival format. I've got to be able to provide for an editable archive for the indefinite future, so mpeg-2 just won't cut it.

    Good news on the Pioneer models being available in Canada. That'll save time on shipping.

    As for my work flow, I've got two computers factored into the equation for a reason. Should cut a lot of my time investment in half. I can be encoding into DV format on one while editing and preparing the DVDs on the other. Encoding can be done on both machines to save time while I'm not in the office. So while I'm estimating 5 hours of processing time per tape (and DVD set), I should be able to cut that down to around 2 real hours by doubling the amount of work done and utilizing batch processing to get the final encoding done the next day.

    As an after though, I'll probably be factoring in a 32" lcd tv into the proposal, so I've got something to watch the final encodes on to check for digital artifacts introduced by the conversion process.
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  30. Member thecoalman's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MorlockMan
    As an after though, I'll probably be factoring in a 32" lcd tv into the proposal, so I've got something to watch the final encodes on to check for digital artifacts introduced by the conversion process.
    If you get the canopus you can export DV-AVI to it and view real time on the TV.
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