Camcorder Adivce Anyone ?

[MAXIMUS01CAN]

G'day All,

I’ve been looking through the posts and trying to get some answers on which way I should go in purchasing a new camcorder as mine was recently stolen on a trip abroad. I previously owned a Sony DCR-PC9 Mini DV camcorder which I purchased around 5yrs ago and liked it very much. In reality I would still be using it and not looking for another format if it wasn’t stolen. I’m really confused with all the options out there, but I think I’ve narrowed it down to 2 formats anyway. Those are sticking with Mini DV tape (be it HDV or just regular) or the newer HDD camcorders. I’ll list a few things that might help you folks help me make a decision. I did read Dennis Vogel’s blurb in the thread below and it seems like mini DV tapes are still the way to go even though that technology seems to be getting left behind by the rage of HDD etc. but I’ll wait for the reply’s to make my decision. While we’re on the topic this may also help in making my decision. When I do my video editing I capture the video of the DV tape and then do the editing etc. and make an .AVI file which is then imported and used to make a MPEG2 video to later put to a DVD. Would purchasing a HDD camera that records in MPEG2 format eliminate the first step of making an AVI file? Can that MPEG2 Video format just be inserted, edited and be ready for DVD file burning?


http://www.camcorderinfo.com/bbs/t138915.html

1. Price range would be up to $1400
2. Video quality? Is Mini Dv better quality than HDD?
3. I do use Ulead Video Studio editing software and do work to most my video when converting it to DVD (Adding transitions, music, stills text)
4. Is Mini DV AVI format easier to capture and edit than HDD format?
5. Size…….my Sony would fit into my pocket with a little tweaking
6. My sony had a digital pass through capability which was really handy for capturing video from external sources such as VHS etc.
7. If Mini DV again should I go with Mini HDV? As I don’t really know the difference.
8. Storage? Mini DV tape is still a pretty solid media that should last a long time, does this give it an edge?


I have been to future shop and looked at their selection of Mini DV units and to me they all seem like cheap plastic versions of the sony camcorder I had previously. Even the most expensive camera the Panasonic PVGS320 for $699 seemed kind of cheaply made. Are there any high quality mini DV tape cameras out there that Future shop or other stores of that variety are not carrying?

Thanks in advance for all your help.

Max

[yoda313]

[/quote]Would purchasing a HDD camera that records in MPEG2 format eliminate the first step of making an AVI file? Can that MPEG2 Video format just be inserted, edited and be ready for DVD file burning?
[/quote]

Yes. That is how it would work. just as if you did a realtime dub to a mpeg capture card and got a mpg file from it. This would be recorded straight to mpg first.

However many here seem to be of the majority opinion that editing in dv-avi is the best approach to preserve quality.

If speed and ease of use in getting a final dvd is more important to you then either a dvd based camcorder or a harddrive unit would be in your best interest.

[MAXIMUS01CAN]

Thanks Yoda,

So will the quality be that much better going from dv.avi+Editing>mpeg2>DVD files>Burn better than using a HDD camcorder and going mpeg2+Editing>DVD files>Burn? If the quality is not that much different then I would say it would be easier and take less time, I would then go with the HDD camcorder angle, but I may be missing something. Any other angles will be appreciated.

Max

[edDV]

1. Price range would be up to $1400
2. Video quality? Is Mini Dv better quality than HDD?
3. I do use Ulead Video Studio editing software and do work to most my video when converting it to DVD (Adding transitions, music, stills text)
4. Is Mini DV AVI format easier to capture and edit than HDD format?
5. Size…….my Sony would fit into my pocket with a little tweaking
6. My sony had a digital pass through capability which was really handy for capturing video from external sources such as VHS etc.
7. If Mini DV again should I go with Mini HDV? As I don’t really know the difference.
8. Storage? Mini DV tape is still a pretty solid media that should last a long time, does this give it an edge?

1. Lots of choice from $350-1400.
2. Yes MiniDV is higher quality. HDV is MPeg2 at the same 25Mb/s bitrate. SD MPeg2 is DVD bitrate. AVCHD is MPeg4 at low bitrate.
3. DV format will work as before. HDV will require an upgrade to Premium. SD MPeg2 can be edited but with issues. MPeg4 is difficult to edit.
4. MPeg has motion compression over the GOP. Information (particularly motion detail) is compromised. DV format records all complete frames. MPeg2 has compromise. MPeg4 more so.*
5. There are similar size models in your price range.
6. Pass through is getting more rare on DV models. Don't assume it is there. DV pass through again passes all frames. MPeg2 or MPeg4 compress motion.
7. Most HDV camcorders record in DV and HDV modes. Use DV for motion detail and for SD pass through. Use HDV when high definition is is desired.
8. DV tape gives you the instant archive master. MPeg2 file backup requires backup discipline. DV tape is now much cheaper.

see
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/ratings.php

[yoda313]

So will the quality be that much better going from dv.avi+Editing>mpeg2>DVD files>Burn better than using a HDD camcorder and going mpeg2+Editing>DVD files>Burn?

I only have old 90's vintage 8mm camcorder so I don't do dv myself. From everything I've read here if you want to do a lot of editing dv-avi is a lot better than using mpeg.

That said if you only plan on doing minor cuts and chops and not extensive editing than mpeg 2 will save a lot of time in my opinion.

Follow eddv's advice in the post above mine. He is definitely an audio/video expert and knows his stuff

[edDV]

*Some background to help the discussion.

Camcorders sort by format, storage medium and imager/lens quality


The current consumer formats are:

Standard def: DV, MPeg2, MPeg4

High definition: HDV, AVCHD, DVHS
AVCHD is MPeg4 AVC H.264 based. The others are MPeg2.

Current storage media are:

DV tape
DVDR
Hard disk
Flash media

First thing to understand is any format can be recorded to any media. DVDR and Flash media are capacity and bit rate limited so are currently impractical for recording DV/HDV. External hard disk recorders are available for DV/HDV. Some pro models store DV to large expensive flash cards (e.g. Panasonic P2).

Next issue is project philosophy. The pro process assumes you shoot and edit on the highest quality format, then you compress for distribution. This gives the most flexibility and quality for editing and allows a high quality edit master that can be repurposed to different distribution formats (e.g. HDTV, DVD, VHS, iPod, cellphone).

The opposite philosophy says you shoot in highly compressed formats to allow small easily managed files that can be stored or distributed as conventional data. You are trading quality for easy file manipulation. The major tradeoff comes if you want to use sophisticated editing, filtering and effects. To do this the file needs to be decompressed and the decompression process is lossy.

[MAXIMUS01CAN]

Ooookayy edDV

So let's pretend you're me and have capabilities a little higher than the average user and you also don't mind spending some time messing around with an editing program such as Ulead Video Studio X. You've already done several little projects that people go.........hey you did a really nice job there and you were in the market for a new camcorder. Given my $$$ and you wanted something in HD, what would you pick and I don't really care about the storage issue as I can have external HD's on my PC, laptop or keep tapes somewhere else, what you be your preference......

Cheers and thanks for the help,
Max

[edDV]

Ooookayy edDV

So let's pretend you're me and have capabilities a little higher than the average user and you also don't mind spending some time messing around with an editing program such as Ulead Video Studio X. You've already done several little projects that people go.........hey you did a really nice job there and you were in the market for a new camcorder. Given my $$$ and you wanted something in HD, what would you pick and I don't really care about the storage issue as I can have external HD's on my PC, laptop or keep tapes somewhere else, what you be your preference......

Cheers and thanks for the help,
Max

Personally, I went through the process two months back and chose the Canon HV20 for my travel shooting. It also fits into my current DV/HDV pro camcorder work as an extra cam. HDV is well supported by current Vegas. I have ULead Video Studio but not the Premium.

For your needs, the HV20 may be a bit bulky. Sony and Canon make smaller vertical packaged HDV models.

Sony Vegas is coming out next month with Version 8 that for the first time has support for AVCHD. It will be interesting to read the reviews.
http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/products/product.asp?pid=457

[zoobie]

With your budget, I'd get a HV20 or a HC7...both tape drives.

[slacker]

All you need to do is pick up a Sony HC7 and place it to your eye of choice, and you're sold. Here is why I would recommend it over other camcorder options...

1. It is great looking, rock solid, built like a tank and a joy to pick up and use. It is not made of cheap plastic like other camcorders and everything is placed where you want it to be, i.e. buttons, switches.
2. It records in both HDV and DV, so you can go back and forth as you choose. You can always backpeddle if you find you're not ready for HDV. The new AVCHD camcorders either only record in AVCHD, or record in AVCHD and MPEG2.
3. Tapes are still the way to go, IMO, until flash cards become competitive in price. Having managed a server farm for many years, among other things, I know how flaky hard drives can become. No way is it prime time for hard drives as an archive format. Not yet anyway.

Sony Vegas 8 comes out tomorrow.

[MAXIMUS01CAN]

After reading the "Great HD Shoo-tout" at camcorderinfo.com, there's only a couple things I might need clarification on before making a choice. My choice will come from either the Canon HV20 or the Sony HDR-HC7. Now the dudes at camcorderinfo.com gave the nod to the HV20 mainly

"because it uses tried and true HDV MPEG-2 compression, and our tests show that HDV remains the best consumer HD format".

My question is:
Now does that mean that the sony doesn't, and if so what does it use and is the difference a deal breaker?

B) The Final Breakdown
The Sony HDR-HC7 ($1399 MSRP) is an excellent camcorder, and it is the most feature-packed camcorder of these four. However, the absence of a focus assist feature is a real liability – and perhaps a fatal one – in situations where the auto focus is not performing adequately

My question is:
Is the focus assist that much of an added feature for video?

The Canon HV20 ($1099 MSRP) has some big deficiencies, including its cheap-feeling construction and an awful zoom lever, but for under $1100 the HV20 delivers amazing performance and bang for the buck. We’d love to see a camcorder that really brings it all together: the handling of the HD7, the functionality of the HC7, the OIS and compactness of the SD1, and the performance of the HV20. Until that happens, smart buyers would be advised to consider the strengths and weaknesses of all of these camcorders, and choose the one that is the best overall match for their shooting style and goals.

Does one opt for something that feels good to use and is basically the same camcorder.......if the zoom lever is poor on the Canon isn't that something you'd use more than say "Focus Assist" Just don't know.

A little more clarification would be appreciated

Cheesrs,
Max

[zoobie]

Well, it simply depends on how you're going to use this cam. These are actually classified as consumer cams.

Many want the HV20 for it's low light capability (weddings, indoor shots, etc).

Many want the HC7 for it's outdoor crispness and LANC capability yielding studio-like pans, zooms, and tilts.

Focus assist? This sounds like somthing the amateur would want because a pro manually focuses their subject anyway.

Btw, my HC5 has a auto & spot focus if that helps but it doesn't work well in low light. Most cams don't from what I've experienced.

Try going down to the local BestBuy or Circuit City and ask to play around with both cams.

What we need is more clarification from you...

PS - You're probably better off asking about these cams in ccinfo, canon, and http://www.sonyhdvinfo.com

[edDV]

Both the HC7 and HV20 are HDV.

As for features you need to read the full article and others and weight the pro/cons to your needs. I did that at the time and the HV20 fit my needs better. One thing that put me off on recent Sony consumer models was the need to go deep into menus for common settings. These camcorders need more buttons like the FX1/ZU.

After living with the HV20 camcorder for a couple of months, the big negative is the zoom control. The other controls seem adequate after memorizing the menus. I keep white balance active and use the joystick to cycle audio levels, exposure override and fine forcus*. The LCD viewfinder indicators are well organized. The audio VU meter preset is wonderful.

The thing I like best about the Canon is the similarity of menus to my Canon still camera. The menus are near identical. Also the HV20 and my S60 camera share the same batteries (for NB-2LH size) and the same external charger. This seriously lightens battery and charger packing.


* Manual focus is only practical from a tripod.

[MAXIMUS01CAN]

I've read the complete review and to me the two are virtually a wash with one having a little better something than the other. I think now it comes down to price and how it feels in my hand and on my eye. I'm nowhere near a pro in this ring....but I do like to dabble. I'd go down to future shop/Best buy but they don't carry the HC7 and they say it's special order, but they do have the HV20. I'm pretty much stuck with Future/Best Buy as that's who the insurance company deals with..........that's stupid I know, but what can you do. Thanks for all the help and any late info will be welcome until I purchase.

Cheers,
Max

[slacker]

The Canon HV20 is a fine camera. I may regret not purchasing it someday. However, the Sony HC7 gets a bad rap on two counts that don't make any sense once you get to know the camcorder.

1. The camcorder has been criticized for the size of the camcontrol dial being too small. Quite honesty, the only person who would have a problem with operating the camcontrol dial is the "Thing" from the Fantastic Four (all thumbs). For me, it operates smoothly and efficiently.

2. The camcorder has been criticized for the menus being exceedingly extensive and deep to maneuver. That is true out of the box. However, all the menus of the HC7 are customizable. If you're personal preference is to access the zebra patterns or the histogram extensively, for example, you can place those menu options right at the top of the menu, and delete menu options you never use at all. It doesn't get any easier than this.

At least on camcorderinfo.com, there were no other serious flaws identified.

Good luck!

[MAXIMUS01CAN]

Thanks for all the info, I have read elsewhere in a forum that after picking up the 2 camcorders was the defining moment for a couple of people as the Sony felt way more solid and sleek than the Canon, but I guess it's all just personal preference. All in all I think I've chosen the Sony HC7 just because of the DCR-PC9 that I owned for 5 years and had very good luck with..............familiarity sometimes drives our choices even though they might not be the best.......

Cheers,
Max

[MAXIMUS01CAN]

Sorry to be back again asking about this, but this is driving me mental with being pigeon holed into shopping at 1 store by an insurance company just because they've made some sort of under the table deal. Anyway they say that the Sony HC7 that I finally decided on is no longer available on special order and if I'd like the Sony HDD 60GB HDR-SR7 instead.........Does this guy film in the same format as the HC7 or is that in the new AVCHD. If it's just a storage issue I guess i could live with external Hard Drives etc. but would rather stay with the tape. Given the above stated, would you go for the Canon HV20 instead?

Thanks Again,
Max

[edDV]

Stomp your foot and say no.
Is the Canon an option? That and the HC-7 are closly matched.

Have you heard of Google search engine? Just input "HDR-SR7"

[MAXIMUS01CAN]

Ya, I've heard of google and have been all over it messing around with this crap. If all else fails I'll go with the canon. Not quite ready for the HDD, don't want the bleeding edge.

Cheers,
Mac

[edDV]

Also the HC-5 or HC-3 if they have any.

[zoobie]

HC7 no longer available?
very strange since it just came out a few months ago
sounds like a shady seller
buyer beware