VHS Copy Protection

[Burnin Fool]

I need some help. Santa left me a DVD recorder under the tree this Christmas and I thought now would be a good time to start backing up my kids collection of Disney VHS movies to DVD. I hooked up everything, pressed play onthe VCR, record on the recorder, and wow, what a surprise. The recorder proceeded to tell me it couldn't complete the operation because the content is copy protected. I didn't think they even new what copy protedtion was way back when. I regularily back up my youngins DVD's and know how to circumvent the latest they have to offer there, but wow, I haven't got a clue what to do with this foolishness. Can anybody share a little help?

Thanks

[pstedman]

Copy protection for VHS has been around for some time. The most common on is called Macrovision. If I recall Macrovision is actually a built in-flaw in the video signal that screws with recording devices. What you need between your VCR and DVD recorder is called a Time Base Corrector or TBC. It filters out the copy protection - or actually corrects the flaws.

If I recall the entry-level TBC's will run you around $250 - $300.

I'd also suggest a search of the forums for ways to defeat Macrovision in case I'm worng or there's a better way to do this.

(Mods please remove if I've stepped into Warez territory)

[lbjohnson]

You can obtain a macrovision stablization for in the range of $20.00 to $30.00 in you take your time and shop around. This works very good on making it possible to record your movies.


GOOD LUCK

[ACLUguy]

This was discussed in great detail here:
(macrovision stabalizers that is)

https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=246129

GL and Happy New Year
-ACLU guy

[RowMan]

I have used this digital video stabilizer for years for transferring copy protected VHS to DVD. Works like a charm and its only about 20 bucks!

http://www.mcminone.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=MCMProducts&product%5Fid=80%2D4280

[overloaded_ide]

Avoid somthing called Big Red when your shopping around.
I bought one before and while it does work to capture a tape it left banded stripes at times in top of the video and also a bright dark flashing of the video. I think I paid about $40-$50 for it.

I have a Video Facet video clarifier that works very well, I paid $100 for it I think. I can capture anything on tape with that. At least anything I have ran across so far. It has both RCA jack and S-video inpoutes and outputs, and RCA jack input then S-Video output seems to help some older lower quality recordings to look a bit better. Not all VCRs have S-video out, mine don't, so I use the RCA input.

Another problem you may find with tapes is even the NOT copy protected tapes may not be recordable if low quality, old, half worn out, etc...
Macrovision is sometimes described as trash added to the video signal. Well what happens when bad quality home movies have trash in them? Yep, often mistaken for Macrovison protection and you cannot even record your OWN tapes YOU own the rights to.

I had this problem of not being able to capture my own home movie VHS-C camcorder tapes! They were the old baby movies of my now almost 16yr old daughter! Some of those tapes would not copy to a DV camcorder or my ATI AIW card because the poor quality of the tapes was mistaken for copy protection. It can happen on any device that blocks Macrovsion protected tapes.
This is why we need ways to break such protections!

[FulciLives]

I have used this digital video stabilizer for years for transferring copy protected VHS to DVD. Works like a charm and its only about 20 bucks!

http://www.mcminone.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=MCMProducts&product%5Fid=80%2D4280

I haven't tried this device myself but I have read many posts in which people have said that this little cheap wonder works and works well.

Some have said that they do find a VHS video or two that even this device cannot make a copy of so apparently it isn't 100% but for the price I would start with this and see how it goes. Again from what I've read it appears to work well like 99% of the time when the source is a videotape (it doesn't work so well if the source is a DVD).

If you want to go "all out" then consider a Full Frame TBC device. Such a device will totally 100% eliminate copy protection from VHS and DVD sources but the more important thing is that a Full Frame TBC will actually re-sync and stabilize the video in such a way that your VHS to DVD will look much better as a result.

Unforunately a Full Frame TBC is rather expensive. The only two "inexpensive" mocels are the AVT-8710 (which is about $200) and the Datavideo TBC-1000 (which is about $300). These can be bought from a variety of on-line websites with B&H Photo & Video being one of the more popular websites for high-end video stuff.

Most people using the AVT-8710 have been happy with it but some have noted abnormal behavior with the unit especially when using it for long periods of time (it seems to get really hot if on for a long time and can then start to "act up" due to the heat). Those using the Datavideo unit say that it can operate for extended periods of time without any issues and is overall a more "robust" unit. My feelings is that the AVT-8710 should be A-OK as long as you only use no more than say 4 hours a day and if you live in a hot climate you may want to consider putting a small fan on it to help disperse the heat. A small personal 4" fan should be good enough.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Burnin Fool]

Wow! Thanks so much for all of the info. Now I will finally have a use for all those antiquated VHS movies I have been storing for so long.

Thanks again

[overloaded_ide]

Now I will finally have a use for all those antiquated VHS movies I have been storing for so long.

Hey I got you beat! Not only do I have a ton of VHS still, I also have a ton of BETA tapes!

I never had time to back them all up to DVD using the PC capture, aditing, authoring, burning, etc...
And I just got a good used Beta recorder again awhile back, so I did not have a way to play the beta's for while anyway.

That's why I just bought the cheap standalone recorder I ordered. Price is LOW and I figure it should make good backups of low quality tapes as well as anything else, at least I hope so. Lots of old VHS-C tapes which would probably trigger false macrovision blocking.

Thanks FulciLives
For several things. Been awhile since I was doing alot of video and I forgot a few things.
You just answered a couple question I was trying to look up also.
Name of the Timebase correcters and where to get one.
I do have some stuff I want the best quality I can get and thinking about buying that $300 unit for on the PC before long, could not remeber the name of it or what store.

[Burnin Fool]

BETA???????? You are right, you do have me beat. I didn't know that beta was still around. I thought the only people to still use it were low tech TV stations to gather video for their news broadcasts. I will never cease to be amazed.

[RowMan]

I think overloaded_ide is referring to the old consumer format of BetaMAX videotapes. I have many of those tapes myself that I still need to transfer to DVD of cool stuff I recorded way back when. This format officially "died" only recently in August of 2002.

News gatherers, video producers, and even film makers still use the professional formats of BetaCAM and Digital Betacam. These two formats are alive and well and are still used frequently in the industry.

[FulciLives]

I still have some Beta tapes here or there but no longer a working Beta VCR which is a shame as I do have some kewl stuff such as a boatload of TALES FROM THE DARKSIDE episodes and most of the original LIVE AID (although I think there was recently a DVD release of LIVE AID but I wonder if it is the same as the original broadcast or shorter or what).

TALES FROM THE DARKSIDE has yet to get a DVD release (the TV show episodes) although I understand it has been playing on SCI-FI but of course that started right after I had to downgrade my cable (due to lack of funds) so I don't get SCI-FI anymore. However my SCI-FI came in with so much DIGITAL SHIT as to be very nearly unwatchable anyways.

I do find it highly distressing that in this day and age of digital cable and digital satellite that some channels look so poor due to over compression that ... well ... it just doesn't make any sense. What's the point of going digital and providing what could be great quality only to digitalize the hell of out it?

Anyways talk about getting off topic ... I'll shut up now LOL

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Seeker47]

BETA???????? You are right, you do have me beat. I didn't know that beta was still around. I thought the only people to still use it were low tech TV stations to gather video for their news broadcasts. I will never cease to be amazed.

Well, there's Beta . . . and there's Beta. The best Beta format (B1s High Band, found only on the top two or three "Prosumer" Beta decks), was superior to any S-VHS I ever saw. (Some Betaphiles might make a case for ED-Beta with metal tape, but let's not go there.) And Beta-SP had a very long reign in tv newsrooms -- which may not be entirely over (?) -- with very good results. But most of the Beta users that ever were remained unexposed to B1s, because the decks were pricey and you only got 90 minutes of it on an L-750 cassette.

I still have some Beta tapes here or there but no longer a working Beta VCR which is a shame as I do have some kewl stuff such as a boatload of TALES FROM THE DARKSIDE episodes and most of the original LIVE AID
TALES FROM THE DARKSIDE has yet to get a DVD release

There were things released on Beta that have not seen the light of day on any other format, just as there are LPs that never got released on CD.

If you want to go "all out" then consider a Full Frame TBC device. Such a device will totally 100% eliminate copy protection from VHS and DVD sources but the more important thing is that a Full Frame TBC will actually re-sync and stabilize the video in such a way that your VHS to DVD will look much better as a result.

In case folks were wondering if this post was ever going to veer back on topic, I'll mention that I have had serious sync problems transferring Beta to DVD, as well. No MV was involved, and we're talking about various tapes, rather than one or two that could have had some problem. I don't think it was a tracking or playback problem with the deck, either. For this reason, I also intend to get a TBC, though the whole matter had been on a very back burner for awhile. I think the sync problems on my xfers manifested far more on some dvd players than on others, but this leads me to believe there must be something not quite right with the xfers. So it might be that any tape format can have problems -- with or without MV being present -- where a TBC would be of benefit.

[LCSHG]

I had a friend that had some Beta tapes and a working Beta player/recorder. There was no problem in dubbing to DVD [In Real Time] as with VHS.

I don't think a TBC will solve all forms of CP as said

If you want to go "all out" then consider a Full Frame TBC device. Such a device will totally 100% eliminate copy protection from VHS and DVD source

They are a factor in a VHS tape for the form of MV on them [But not always].

This is a Quote from a source that I would consider most knowledgeable

I think that a TBC will only work on signal based CP and not encoded based. Since MV is a siganl based CP, the TBC can filter it, since that is what a TBC is for, stabilizing the picture. Most of the encoded types of CP, like what HBO and Cinamax uses, will not be filterable by a TCB since it is not video signal based CP, it is bits encoded into the data stream. That is why DVD rippers are able, for the most part, able to do what they do. They are able to rip and delete the CP bits while ripping the DVD to the computer

Another quote

There were things released on Beta that have not seen the light of day on any other format, just as there are LPs that never got released on CD.

How True Which is why I have been transfering many older 33, 45 and 16 RPM to CD and DVD

[Burnin Fool]
Unless you can find a recorder that will defeat MV in dubbing VHS to DVD, It would seem that your only choice is a TBC,.
Get a Good One

[FulciLives]

There is a question as to a Full Frame TBC being able to eliminate the so-called broadcast flag type of protection but it should have no issue with other forms of copy protection especially those found on Beta or VHS pre-records or even analog DVD video etc.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[LCSHG]

I do not have problems with comments that a TBC will remove VHS MV or other forms of signal based CP
I have questions when it is stated that A TBC will remove 100% of CP on VHS or DV or has no issue with other forms of CP
This has been done on more than one occasion; It implies that a TBC will remove all forms of CP and they will not .
Why would there be a question of any TBC removing a Flag or any encoded CP
They Don’t
If they did you could get any recorder and a TBC and give Sony the thumb

If all a person wants is to defeat signal based MV as on a VHS, I should think a TBC OK, But a good one will cost more than the recorder

Most CP today is encoded, it’s getting worse. Compliance with this would appear to not only be firmware [Code] related, but built into a unit to thwart any Compliance.

[FulciLives]

I guess I don't understand your distinction as to signal based CP vs encoded based CP and when one might encounter one form vs the other form.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[VegasBud]

A consumer full frame TBC appears to completely rewrite the VBI, as is shown by the removal of closed captioning which is not only a good thing, it is required by FCC regulations. Because of this VBI rewrite/replacement/normalizing, any copy protection based in the vertical blanking interval (examples of which would include macrovision and CGMS-A) will be stripped by the TBC. I assume what LCSHG is referring to as "signal based" could also be called "VBI based" (a rose by any other name...).

Since the title of this thread is "VHS Copy Protection", which only uses VBI based protection, FulciLives' statement:

If you want to go "all out" then consider a Full Frame TBC device. Such a device will totally 100% eliminate copy protection from VHS and DVD source.

would be accurate.

No TBC will ever remove encryption based protections (present on dvds, etc., but not VHS) like AACS, CSS, or CPRM, which is what LCSHG appears to be referring to as "encoded". In addition, a TBC will not correct structure protection (which also doesn't exist on VHS).

Note: Edited to correct spelling of LCSHG's name in last paragraph. Sorry.

[FulciLives]

Well no wonder I was confused LOL

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[ofbarea]

In case folks were wondering if this post was ever going to veer back on topic, I'll mention that I have had serious sync problems transferring Beta to DVD, as well.

The Panasonic DMR-ES10 has very good sync circuits that will workaround these problems. It is not the greatest DVD recorder, but it has great sync circuits.

[Seeker47]

No TBC will ever remove encryption based protections (present on dvds, etc., but not VHS) like AACS, CSS, or CPRM, which is what LCSHG appears to be referring to as "encoded".

O.K., but then what happens with the Tivo-like DVRs that are offered to customers by Dish, DirecTV, or various cable providers ? If they don't have some means of recording encoded-protected content, they would be quite useless and pointless, would they not ? But if they have some "except for these devices" chip or firmware in them, does that not suggest some future market for a new generation of black boxes (legal or illegal) that some enterprising, copyright-disrespecting overseas company will be all too glad to sell you ?

[FulciLives]

No TBC will ever remove encryption based protections (present on dvds, etc., but not VHS) like AACS, CSS, or CPRM, which is what LCSHG appears to be referring to as "encoded".

O.K., but then what happens with the Tivo-like DVRs that are offered to customers by Dish, DirecTV, or various cable providers ? If they don't have some means of recording encoded-protected content, they would be quite useless and pointless, would they not ? But if they have some "except for these devices" chip or firmware in them, does that not suggest some future market for a new generation of black boxes (legal or illegal) that some enterprising, copyright-disrespecting overseas company will be all too glad to sell you ?

I know of one "black box" that can defeat the so-called "broadcast flag" or "5c" type of copy protection.

It is a high quality home made device that a user from the AVS FORUM makes and sells and apparently it works rather well.

Here is a link to it ---> http://home.cfl.rr.com/filter/

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[InXess]

Should be available at your local WalMart and under $10. BF is not even officially mandated.

[ofbarea]

I know of one "black box" that can defeat the so-called "broadcast flag" or "5c" type of copy protection.

It is a high quality home made device that a user from the AVS FORUM makes and sells and apparently it works rather well.

Here is a link to it ---> http://home.cfl.rr.com/filter/

This is the device that I was looking for quick PAL to NTSC conversions.

PAL DVD -> DVD player (NTSC) => "Device" => Panasonic DMR ES10 -> NTSC DVD

This is good. Before I was recording the NTSC output with a PYRO A/V Link, then render the MPEG, author and burn the DVD. This will speed up things a lot.

[ofbarea]

I finally got my Logic Design Video filter. It works just fine with my Panasonic DMR-ES10

I'm happy!!!

[FiremanPete]

One cheap workaround for the macrovision problem is to pick up a Lite-On DVD Recorder (LVW-5XXX) that can be hacked (search under Lite-On Hack and see how simple it is...)

You can also buy a rebranded Lite-On cheap cheap cheap...I picked up a Gateway AR-230 (which is really a LiteOn LVW-5001) for $24 bucks new (either a refurb or demo) and the seller has a ton of them....I had to buy the remote for $12 from litetrek.com but it's still a good deal...the LiteOn units can be hacked to disable macrovision and the same hack makes them region-free (view DVD's from all regions of the world.)

I've already backed up six or seven Disney VHS tapes to DVD with not one hitch. Before the hack, my unit read "Protected Content" and wouldn't record....I've also burned a bunch of DVD's from my VHS-C camcorder and backed up my pay-per-view purchases onto DVD.

Just a thought to save spending a couple hundred bucks...at the price of my Gateway unit, even if craps out (there's a lot of negative reviews of the LiteOn units, but no problem so far for me...) it's doing its job for me.

Pete

[drstew]

Whose the seller?

[FiremanPete]

The seller is erecycleronline...here's a link to one of many they have up now...
http://cgi.ebay.com/GATEWAY-AR-230-DVD-RECORDER-DVD-PLAYER-DVD-R-RW-SALE_W0QQitemZ1100...QQcmdZViewItem

[lordsmurf]

Please don't confuse Betamax with Betacam, they're not even remotely the same.

[pepegot1]

Go to http://www.checkhere22.com/stabilizer/ to get a Macrovision remover.