HuffYUV corrupts my videos!

[Z-C]

Hi again everyone. It seems that I am facing a very disturbing issue, which holds me back with my video conversions, even before the MPEG2 encoding part.

My source is Interlaced PAL DV(captured with Canopus ADVC110).
When I use Vdubmod to save the movie as HuffYUV, I get a flickering distorted footage. Here's an example of how it looks:



I am using HuffYUV 2.1.1. I also tried using version 1.3.1. which improved things but still had some distorted flickering, so it's not good either.

Why does it happen?

[Forum Troll]

Have you tried saving the video using the Panasonic DV codec first?

[guns1inger]

Try using either virtualdub or virtualdubmpeg. While virtualdubmod still has some great features, it is based on an older version of the basic virtualdub code. Upgrading might straighten a few things out.

[Z-C]

Thank you.

I got vdub then. but I can't seem to find an option to choose compression when I 'save as' avi. The help file doesn't say anything about compression unless it's on capture.

Is this a feature vdub's lacking?

[edDV]

Normal for the ADVC-110 would be a DV format capture. DV is already compact (compressed to 13.5 GB/hr).

If you need to decompress for filtering, then huffyuv can be used to store the decompressed result.

I don't understand your process.


PS: I prefer to use a native DV format editor (e.g. Vegas or Premiere) unless special Virtualdub or avisynth filters are needed. The Panasonic DV codec is not the best. For simple editing and transitions, Vegas or Premiere will maintain first generation (camera/transcoder generated) DV frames up to the MPeg2 encoder stage. The only second generation frames are those in the transition or those that are filtered.

[jagabo]

VirtualDub:

1) File -> Open Video File
2a) Video -> Fast Recompress (if not filtering)
2b) video -> Full Processing Mode (if filtering)
3) Video -> Compression...
4) File -> Save as AVI

[pijetro]

Back to edDV's question...
Why in the world would you capture to DV compression, recompress to Huffy, and then recompress for DVD later on??
(I'm assuming that's the final format?)

[Z-C]

jagabo: thank you for your answer. I looked in the menus before and must have missed it! *silly me*

edDV & pijetro: The reason is quite simple - I am using NeatVideo as a noise reduction filter(it gives me far better results than any other filter). Unfortunately - Neat Video is extremely slow(around 1-3frames/sec depends on settings).

If I use huffyuv to save the filtered file, It only takes one pass to filter the footage, and then I can use multipass MPEG2 encoder which will only take a few hours.
However, if I frameserve to an MPEG 2 encoder directly, I use 2-3 passes, thus filtering the footage 2-3 times(even 4 because one pass is for analyzing or something like that).
That takes far too long - a few days for each movie.

As far as I understand, converting to huffyuv is lossless(or almost), and I shouldn't have quality decrease. So it doesn't really matter or does it?

I'm certainly open for other suggestions, as long as I can still use NeatVideo. I really tried many filters and none get even close to it's results. There's also a version for Premiere so maybe it would be better to use it with that instead of Vdub?

EDIT: By the way, I tried using normal Vdub 1.6.16 and Huffyuv 2.1.1 for the encoding and I still get a distorted video :/. What am I doing wrong?

[Z-C]

This is really exhausting! I've been working on this all day.

I tried using different lossless codecs - MSU lossless codec, alparysoft lossless codec. They seem to produce a good image, but the motion is slow/looks like 5fps. Looks like they have problem with the interlaced/BFF mode? I might be wrong though.

I also tried uninstalling panasonic dv codec and using cedocide dv codec instead. I still get an awful distorted picture though.

So it's not Vdub nor the DV codec. It's definitely HuffYUV fault.

I'm really out of ideas. So I really hope you guys aren't... If you have a better idea then HuffYUV then by all means - share it!

[jagabo]

Rather than using HuffYUV, try use ffdshow's HuffYUV encoder/decoder (uninstall HuffYUV).

[edDV]

Now I understand what you are doing.

Maybe you could isolate the problem by process of elimination.

Try a Known good MPeg2 import file in place of the DV capture (e.g. decompress the MPeg2 in Virtualdub), then process with the Neatvideo plug-in then save to huffyuv and encode. See if the problem persists.

Or, use the DV capture and NetaVideo filter but save a short clip without huffyuv (use uncompressed) and see if the problem persists.


BTW, NeatVideo will also work as a plug-in to Premiere or After Effects.
http://www.neatvideo.com/

[pijetro]

I've gotten away from using software filters, and going through the hardware restoration route. Check out the stickys at the restoration forum..

Anyhoo, back to your issues..
You can save some time by encoding the video prior to filtering for the analyze pass, and introduce the filter for the finish pass..A technique that's been mentioned by the honourable BJ_M..I'm looking forward to trying it myself...
But since you're filtering anyhow, would you need to go through multiple passes for encoding since you're essentially removing noise to begin with??

[Z-C]

edDV: I've already tried the second option you offered. If I save the file as uncompressed RGB it looks just fine. So I guess there's a problem with HuffYUV and my setup I'm afraid.
Do you have any better idea for me than HuffYUV/other lossless codec playing the middleman part? Or any idea why HuffYUV is causing this?

I can use Neat video in premiere, but how will that make things quicker/better?
And sorry for my lack of knowledge, but what is after effects for?

jagabo: I'm having problems uninstalling the huffyuv codec. for some reason removing it from the add/remove or from device manager(from the codec list) doesn't work. When I figure out how to remove it I'll try your advice.

EDIT: pijetro: The method you're offering seems nice. Where can I find more info about it? I'm not really sure it's too good for me because 2 passes will also require a great dseal of time(2 day), but it might be worth it.
I wish to use multipass VBR to achieve maximum quality. I'm not cleaning all the noise, just some of it. And this was VHS originally so it's quite noisy. I think I'd be fine with 2 passes but I don't want to only use 1 pass.

[FulciLives]

This is really exhausting! I've been working on this all day.

I tried using different lossless codecs - MSU lossless codec, alparysoft lossless codec. They seem to produce a good image, but the motion is slow/looks like 5fps. Looks like they have problem with the interlaced/BFF mode? I might be wrong though.

Are you sure it's just not the playback?

I mean the video may be A-OK but be so "compressed" (even though it is lossless) that the computer cannot play it back in real time. In other words the computer may be decoding it for playback too slowly to get smooth playback ... yet everything can still be there. Hope that makes sense!

So maybe save a minute or so using one of the lossless codecs you mentioned then convert that to MPEG-2 DVD spec then see how well it plays back.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[edDV]

edDV: I've already tried the second option you offered. If I save the file as uncompressed RGB it looks just fine. So I guess there's a problem with HuffYUV and my setup I'm afraid. Do you have any better idea for me than HuffYUV/other lossless codec playing the middleman part? Or any idea why HuffYUV is causing this?

That narrows it down. Huffyuv works ok on my system so I haven't tried any others. Could the problem result from huffyuv output to the encoder?

I can use Neat video in premiere, but how will that make things quicker/better?

Well, Premeire Pro would keep the video path native DV format but the NeatVideo filter would still require decompression and recompression for any clips run through it so the result would be similar. The only differences may be slight improvement using the Adobe DV codec and Premiere seems to have no problem exporting to huffyuv.

And sorry for my lack of knowledge, but what is after effects for?

After Effects is a add on software effects processor for Premiere. It would not solve your problem.
http://www.adobe.com/products/aftereffects/

[Z-C]

FulciLives: good idea. I will check that asap.

edDV:

That narrows it down. Huffyuv works ok on my system so I haven't tried any others. Could the problem result from huffyuv output to the encoder?

I'm sorry, but what do you mean by 'huffyuv output to the encoder'? isn't huffyuv the encoder?

Seems like the problems keep rounding up. After so many unsuccesful attempts to uninstall huffyuv I deleted everything related to it in the registry. that seems to have eliminated it. However, when installing ffdshow I get an error saying there was a problem Registering ffdshow.ax. :/

[FulciLives]

I hate to say it but often times when Windows gets "cluttered" with codecs ... the only way to really clean it up is to do a fresh install. By fresh install I mean delete the HDD and re-install from scratch. Not a re-install over top of the existing install.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Z-C]

That would really be frustrating since I've done a fresh install - Yesterday! and already got all my stuff back. :/.

I'd prefer to check the options I have left. maybe find what's causing these problems.

A fresh install probably wouldn't fix the huffyuv problem since it was one of the first things I installed. and the installation was fine. only the results are bad.

[edDV]

FulciLives: good idea. I will check that asap.

edDV:

That narrows it down. Huffyuv works ok on my system so I haven't tried any others. Could the problem result from huffyuv output to the encoder?

I'm sorry, but what do you mean by 'huffyuv output to the encoder'? isn't huffyuv the encoder?

I should have said 'huffyuv decoder output to the MPeg2 encoder'.

[jagabo]

I've had problems at times with HuffYUV in the past. I don't remember the exact symptoms but the fix was to uninstall HuffYUV and use ffdshow's HuffYUV codec.

You should look into a filter manager like RadLight FilterManager or FilMerit to clean up codecs.

http://paul.glagla.free.fr/filmerit_en.htm

[Z-C]

I tried Filter Manager. Didn't help either. Actually I think that's what created the problems in the first place!

Anyway, HuffYUV is gone. I really cleaned it. So ffdshow isn't installing for some other reason.

edDV: The HuffYUV file is distorted without even reencoding as mpeg2. I tried converting to mpeg2 too in case this is a decoder problem, but in mpeg2 I also get distorted video.

The good news are that FulciLives was right! After encoding to mpeg2 the clips that were created using Alparysoft lossless codec, msu lossless codec, and ffdshow huffyuv(using another PC cause it won't install on mine), the clips work smoothly.
What I don't understand is how come on a fast computer like mine lossless encoded footage doesn't run smoothly. is this normal?

So I guess I could use one of the other lossless codecs. But are they as good as HuffYUV? because everyone's talking about that specific codec(I guess it's because of speed but just to make sure).

So the sum things up - would it be best for me to use one of the other lossless codecs? Or is there any better solution for me without using a lossless codec as a middleman solution. One like pijetro offered before, or anything else?

Thanks again for your help! I was starting to get really frustrated here...

[jagabo]

Getting jerky playback of uncompressed or losslessly compressed video isn't unusual. The problem may be either CPU power or disk bandwith. Disk I/O is especially problematic if you are using USB external drives or across a network.

If you can't get HuffYUV working, then yes, it will be better to use one of the other codecs! Note that lossless should mean what it says. The output after compression/decompression is exactly the same as the input.

[Z-C]

Basically, with lossless settings all codecs should output the same quality right?

I'm still a bit worried because there's probably a difference between what they are designed to do and what they output. HuffYUV wasn't supposed to provide distorted picture, yet it did.

Anyway, as you know, we don't really use these codecs as lossless, but as somewhat lossy, since I am performing a YUY2/YV12(in alpary it's YV12) color conversion. Does the other codecs(especially Alpary because that's what I intend to use), produce an equal, practically lossless quality like HuffYUV is supposed to provide?

about the jerky playback - That's the thing. I am using a Pentium D 3.5GHz system, with 1GB of dual channel RAM, and a 160 SATA II(3gb/sec) HD. Isn't that fast enough?

[Wile_E]

One problem with your process is that NeatVideo doesn't support interlaced frames.
http://www.neatvideo.com/nvforum/viewtopic.php?t=29

[Soopafresh]

You may have had FFDshow set to decode Huffyuv, which has led to odd looking video playback for me in the past.

[jagabo]

On my system (Core 2 Duo E6300) HuffYUV compresses faster than realtime and plays back smoothly. MSU lossless is much slower, requiring about 3 minutes for each minute of video ("Absolutely Lossless", "Maximize Speed", no colorspace conversion, no delta frames) and playback is jerky. The decompressor is outputting RGB so I assume it encoded as lossless RGB.

I tried Alparysoft's lossless codec back when it first came out and it screwed up my system. It took quite a while to fix so I've never tried their stuff again.

[Z-C]

Wile_E: I'm performing separate fields for that .

Soopafresh: I never installed ffdshow. I only tried installing it after i had probs with HuffYUV.

jagabo: It's more or less the same in my system . Huffyuv would play smoothly if it played back alright.
Should I use MSU lossless codec then? I saw some bad posts about alparysoft actually. It's just that MSU's codec is extreamly slow! 1 fps on pretty high settings!

By the way: I'm sometimes getting those errors in vdub after encoding. is this ok?: "Dub: I/O thread has not cycled for ten seconds -- possible livelock. (Thread location: 03CCB9A7)

[Soopafresh]

Another option is Cineform Connect HD, which is amazingly fast, but it is commercial $199.00
Still, they have a 2 week trial. If you do this a lot, it might be worth it.

http://www.cineform.com/products/ConnectHD.htm


Here's quite an interesting thread about attempts to make Huffyuv multithreaded and various performance options with lossless codecs. This is more experimental info, however.

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=113889


Finally, Lagarith is a great codec, and faster than MSU.

[Z-C]

soopafresh - Thank you .
I will check in that cineform stuff. Plus I have Vegas and I see it's already a part of it(a basic version anyway). is it a lossless codec?

Abot lagarith - I heard that's a great codec. However, I heard it doesn't support interlaced material. :/

[jagabo]

It doesn't matter that lagarith doesn't have a specific interlace setting. It's lossless and can work in the RGB colorspace. So if the frames are interlaced going in they will be interlaced coming out.