Capturing Video8 and Hi8 - guides

[swiego]

I am sure many people have Video8 or Hi8 tapes that they wish to capture a digital format. Over the last few months I have been researching options for a good playback device, since I had dozens of tapes but no device. Now that I've finally acquired a few, I want to post some of my results here for posterity. I totally understand that this won't be of much interest to many people but to the few who do care, maybe it will be helpful.

Questions I tried to answer are,
1. What is the best playback device to use for Video8 and Hi8 tapes?
2. For these playback devices, exactly what is the impact of using TBC and/or DNR that is built into these players?

First, the contenders. There are a few broad options.

1. Use a 8mm VCR. There are players, some with portable LCD units. There are full-blown VCRs. And then there are bonafide editing decks. I acquired what I am led to believe is the cream of the crop, a Sony EV-S7000 editing deck. It has built in TBC and DNR, full editing capabilities with time code, accurate to one frame when paired with another EV-S7000, and more. This is a $2,000+ deck from the early to mid 1990s.

Other options include the portable "video walkman" devices, running up through the GVD-800 with Lanc, TBC, DNR, s-video/firewire output and the works.

If you have some cash and want something that fits in with a different kind of decor, there is the broadcast/professional units, leading up to the EVO-9850 with the configurable TBC, rack mount and DUB connectors.

Which of these is "best" is hard to say. There are some posts on usenet suggesting that the EV-S7000 is a stronger playback deck than the EVO-9850, but who really knows. If anyone wants to lend me the EVO, I'll be happy to check it out


2. Use a Digital8 camcorder. These were manufactured from ~ 1998 to ~2005. The latest model (DCR-TRV480) just got taken off of sonystyle.com so perhaps Digital8 as a format finally has died. Setting aside its other benefits and weaknesses, many Digital8 camcorders can play back Video8 and Hi8 tapes, at least in SP mode. They have built in TBC and DNR, and certainly they are much newer. They also have the ability to encode to DV-AVI over firewire, making them pretty easy.

Some say that the x20 series Digital8 camcorders were the best... past the initial teething pains but manufactured before Sony began dumbing them down. I have the DCR-TRV820, manufactured circa 2000, built in TBC and DNR, 4" LCD and---better sit down for this---a built in printer. There are cheaper models (120, 320, 520, 720) that are just as good for our purposes.

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Which is better for playback?

Editing decks
Pros: high quality transport, electronics and ADC/DACs, polished and mature, feature-rich
Cons: more expensive, older, TBC may not be as good, no 1394 output, forced to use analog s-video signal path for capturing

Digital8 camcorders
Pros: Much newer, more modern electronics with modern TBC/DNR capabilities, comparatively cheap, on-board DV-AVI output means no fussing about s-video cables
Cons: potentially lower quality conversion and electronics... "you get what you pay for"

The argument in favor of the Digital8 camcorders is that by "capturing" inside the camcorder rather than outputing to a s-video signal path, you will capture resolution (at least in Hi8 mode) that would be lost via s-video. There also is an argument that the TBC is much stronger.

The argument in factor of the older editing decks is that quality electronics and design (aka. $$$) can still win the day, even at a disadvantage of several years' development.

The truth?

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I decided to begin my testing with a regular Video8 tape. I will move on to Hi8 a little later. My belief is that Video8 should behave about the same with either deck (in terms of resolution) and instead be a good way to expose differences in DNR and TBC between the decks, rather than out-and-out resolution. Once I work out the Video8 solution, I will move on to Hi8.

I will update this as I go... I also am going to shoot for doing some resolution charts...

[swiego]

First thing's first, I took a DCR-TRV820 camcorder (perhaps one of the top Digital8 camcorders ever made) and decided to check out its on-board TBC and DNR:

No TBC or DNR:


DNR but no TBC:


TBC but no DNR:


TBC and DNR:


Conclusions -
1. DNR has absolutely no effect, at least on this TRV820 camcorder and therefore potentially on models of its vintage. I was surprised by this.
2. TBC had a minor effect... without it, I seemed to have more blown out highlights, with it turned on some of those things disappeared. With it turned on, I don't see any loss whatsoever.
3. Therefore, best choice is DNR off, TBC on.

[zoobie]

interesting...

[swiego]

Switching over to the EV-S7000 captured to huffyuv over s-video to a Theater 550 Pro card, I took a look at the three DNR settings offered by the editing deck... OFF, STD and MAX. These seem to do a good job, you can see that the EV-S7000 DNR seems to remove some very low frequency noise and banding artifacts without damaging the image much. I'm not sure an avisynth filter would do some of the cleanup I noticed. I recommend leaving it on, even at MAX.

TBC on, no DNR:


TBC on, STD DNR:


TBC on, MAX DNR:


Now what about TBC? To test, I turned off TBC (which turns off DNR) and tried again:



Lots of chroma noise, what I guess is video switching noise at the bottom, and more. It's ugly. On-board TBC definitely adds some value on this player. I've read that it's a 16-line unit. It seems to work OK.

[swiego]

So a head-to-head, which do I prefer?

1. Picture quality - I compared the deck with STD DNR and TBC to the camcorder with no DNR but yes to TBC. My conclusion? Well, the edit deck's output is cleaner and seems to have more dynamic range. It's much less noisy... MUCH less noisy. It seems to lose a tiny amount of detail, perhaps due to the NR, but on Video8 material it's barely noticable and certainly not worse than what you'd get doing NR in avisynth/virtualdub anyway. Basically, despite the "analog-to-digital-to-analog-to-digital conversions involved using the EV-S7000 over s-video, I still like it better.

2. That said, D8 camcorders seem to give me nearly the same quality (minus the DNR) with a lot less fuss... just pop the tape in, connect to the PC via firewire and you're done... perfectly sync'd DV-AVI file.

I guess the next test is Hi8, but I'm about to fall asleep (and will be in the dog house if I stay up any longer) ...

The Sony EV-S:


The Sony Digital8:


The Sony EV-S:


The Sony Digital8:

[westbrookmedia]

2. Use a Digital8 camcorder. These were manufactured from ~ 1998 to ~2005. The latest model (DCR-TRV480) just got taken off of sonystyle.com so perhaps Digital8 as a format finally has died. Setting aside its other benefits and weaknesses, many Digital8 camcorders can play back Video8 and Hi8 tapes, at least in SP mode. They have built in TBC and DNR, and certainly they are much newer. They also have the ability to encode to DV-AVI over firewire, making them pretty easy.

I recently purchased a DCR-TRV480 to use as a player for 8mm and Hi8 and digital8 tapes. It does not provide analog digital conversion! When you play an analog tape, there is no output via the DV output. It is stated somewhere in the manual as well (somehow, I missed that part). So, I am stuck using composite out (there isn't even an S-Video port) through an A/D converter.

[teeg]

That is strange that it isn't working as an A/D converter. I have read posts on other forums where people have successfully transfered out via firewire from a TRV480 when playing back an analogue tape Video8/Hi8.

It's a shame that the model have been discontinued -- I was planning on purchasing one soon. Hopefully a store has some stock left.

[zoobie]

so this is composite stuff?
tons of those on ebay
used to ease people over to digital from hi8
probably finished
i'd buy a new dig camcorder
you can just rent a hi-end hi8 to run off stuff

[westbrookmedia]

That is strange that it isn't working as an A/D converter. I have read posts on other forums where people have successfully transfered out via firewire from a TRV480 when playing back an analogue tape Video8/Hi8.

It's a shame that the model have been discontinued -- I was planning on purchasing one soon. Hopefully a store has some stock left.

Good news for you... I got it two weeks ago at Crutchfield Outlet... check it out, perhaps there are more. Also, Circuit City had one the week before and SONY.com had one in their outlet for a couple bucks more (still under $300).

Regarding the DV out... I did try it and it didn't work. Popped the tape in, played and hooked up the firewire to my DVD recorder... no signal. Hopefully, this is just DUE. Perhaps there is a setting.... I DID find in the manual that you can USE it as an A/D converter.... hook up a VCR to tht AV jack and out put DV via firewire to your computer. It must be able to output DV. Would you point me to the posts? Perhaps someone can tell me what setting I am missing...

[Suds-N-Spuds]

Regarding the DV out... I did try it and it didn't work. Popped the tape in, played and hooked up the firewire to my DVD recorder... no signal. Hopefully, this is just DUE. Perhaps there is a setting.... I DID find in the manual that you can USE it as an A/D converter.... hook up a VCR to tht AV jack and out put DV via firewire to your computer. It must be able to output DV. Would you point me to the posts? Perhaps someone can tell me what setting I am missing...

You'll need to set the A/V->DV OUT setting in your camera's menu to ON. Once you have done this any signal that comes into the camera via your AV cable will come out the camera's firewire port.

[westbrookmedia]

You'll need to set the A/V->DV OUT setting in your camera's menu to ON. Once you have done this any signal that comes into the camera via your AV cable will come out the camera's firewire port.

I changed the setting and the DV signal worked fine
Thanks. I thought the setting only applied to a device entering the AV jack.

[teeg]

Thanks. The only problem is is that I'm in Australia which is PAL, not NTSC. I'll have a look around for old stock.

[swiego]

Although I don't have the energy at the moment to post all the captures, I did finish testing with Hi8 and can draw some very definite conclusions now...

Test setup - freshly recorded Hi8. Material... resolution charts (http://www.bealecorner.com/trv900/respat/eia1956-small.jpg) as well as DVD material from my Firefly DVDs Digital8 camcorder via DV-AVI vs. Hi8 editing deck via huffyuv/550Pro.

Results:

Digital8 playing Hi8 material notes:
1. Digital8 camcorder DNR continues to accomplish nothing for 8/Hi8 playback. I think it is non-functional. Keep it off.
2. Digital8 TBC causes dramatic luma and chroma shifts. It's not subtle, and it's difficult to describe what's happening. Resolution seems unaffected, however noise seems to increase with TBC on. TBC corrective performance however is at least as good as my JVC 9911U SVHS player. It really does work. Tough call here... I suggest keeping it off.

Hi8 Deck playing Hi8 material notes:
1. Turning on TBC actually seems to improve sharpness, noise, color, etc. It also bumps luma a bit but it's much more subtle, and color itself seems unaffected. Leave it on.
2. DNR works... slightly. It starts destroying resolution at the "max" setting. NeatVideo virtualdub plugin utterly annihilates its performance. Keep it off.

Digital8 vs. Hi8 Deck:
1. Resolution - the Hi8 deck captured more detail. I saw this consistently, in the DVD caps as well as the res chart capture. For Video8 material, you won't notice any difference. For Hi8, my EV-S7000 captures more information. Hi8 Deck wins.
2. Image quality - the Hi8 deck exhibits almost no color bleed. It's a huge difference. Color is more accurate to the source. The picture is smooth and artifact free. On the other hand, the D8 produces a slightly less noisy capture. My opinion, Hi8 Deck wins.
3. Convenience - no contest, DV-AVI is easy to capture and manipulate. huffyuv is a bit of a pain. D8 wins.
4. Resiliency - how well does the playback device handle stretches of munched tape or poor tracking? Well, the D8 tends to track better, no question about that. On the other hand the Hi8 deck keeps delivering an image, even with lots of tracking error noise, for a lot longer before losing sync and pumping out that blue screen. I'd call this a tie.

In a nutshell, I like my EV-S7000 captures better. At the end of the day, the PQ puts on top in spite of the need to use analog output to the PC. With a good s-video cable and huffyuv, I get better results, the only downside being that they are a bit more noisy. However NR software for virtualdub and avisynth blow away the DNR on these two devices, so I'm not sure that matters a great deal.

I will post some pictures later but for now will say that the Digital8 camcorder is a very convenient method of capturing 8/Hi8 video, but a top-drawer Sony Hi8 editing deck is going to give you the best PQ overall.

[slacker]

Actually, the optimal playback device for your Hi-8 footage is the original camcorder that recorded the material, for a couple of reasons. But as you say, you don't have that device. Bummer.

My pristine Sony Hi-8 camcorder I purchased in 1992 is going on eBay in a couple of weeks, as soon as my conversions are all triple checked and wrapped up.

[mariogarcia]

this a very interesting thing
my problem is: i have the a analog sony handycam i think it's ccd-trv 408e with that camera you can choose to record in wide mode and in the manual they tell you in order not to see the image stretched to set the 16:9 tv in full mode. I don't have such tv, i just want to capture it.
result the image is stretched and the output is 4:3... there's no apparent way to view or capture the image in the correct proportions?
how would you overcome this issue?
thanks

[durfer]

HI

I just registered and am having a similar issue: I have mini dv tapes that were recorded on a 3 chip camera(non-HD), I now have a 1 chip HD mini-dv camera. I am trying to play back the 3 chip camera tapes on the 1 chip camera and it is not working. It only shows a blue screen while tape is playing.

Why and how can I fix this? Do I need to adjust settings on my 1 chip camera? or do I need to find a 3-chip player?

Thanks in advance for the help.

[cheekygirl]

I have a few home videos on Video8 and Hi8 tapes that I want to convert to digital format before I get rid of my old analog camcorder (Sony Handycam CCD TR101). I'll be using LeadTek video capture card that can capture at either 320x240 or 640x480 resolution (60fps interlaced contents is being captured at 30fps with each frame containing both fields). I found somewhere online that Hi8 has 420 vertical lines and Video8 has 240. So should I be capturing Video8 tapes at 240x320 30fps interlaced and Hi8 at 640x480 30fps? I'm asking, because I'm not sure if Video8 spec refers to 240 lines at 30fps or 60fps.

[elandy]

I use the
Sony GV-A500 Hi8 Video8 8mm Video 8 Video Walkman (which has built in screen) and also the 200 which has not screen). I output s video to a Kona capture card, set for 10bit capture. The GV's TBC should be on for stability, but the DNR depends on the original material you are copying.. Manual says dnr degrades images with a lot of motion and I have seen this to be true. So in each case the choice depends on the original material. I think that if its a very still image the dnr will reduce color noise significantly and should be used, but if you are moving, turn it off. The GV hi-8 series also have a firewire output so you can copy directly to DV on your computer. However DV is a compressed signal - high quality, but not as good as 8 bit or 10 bit video.

My question is whether the newer EVO-550H deck would give me a better playback picture. Or some other hi end hi-8 deck?