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  1. Finally I got some time to put my hands on the new Panasonic DMR- ES10S.
    These are my observations and conclusions…

    First of all, it is obvious that this is the first revolutionary change in the Panasonic production line of the DVD recorders. Until now Panasonic was moving in the evolutionary spin trying to fine tune the original design placed on the market some years ago. The new DIGA family of DVD recorders is a revolutionary step forward for this company and it is based on new hardware and on their original and modified software.

    See the differences between the old and the new hardware design on the uploaded images.

    In order to avoid any problem with the quality of the feeding signals (you know the rule of tomb: garbage in – garbage out), I made all my tests with the Sony broadcast DVCam camera DSR300A + Canon YH18x6.7KRS 1x12 lens (800 lines of resolution), Sony DVCam DSR-11 player and Sony UVW-1800 Betacam SP deck.

    - First of all I can tell you that the Panasonic’s brave new dive in the 12-bit technology, made after Sony’s first pioneers steps, is giving some definite good results. Compared to the old 10-bit technology, the new machines are recording more fatefully (color fidelity and saturation) from the originals like never before. Checked on a waveform and vetroscope monitors, the recorded signals were absolutely equal to the original incoming ones from the camera or the DVDCam and Betacam players. These are outstanding result by any professional standards (never mind about consumer grade product)!

    - The 12-bit technology is giving real results. Sony started to use it a year ago and now Panasonic is showing that the same technology implemented at the front end of the recorders gives noticeable better recording results than the obsolete 10-bit technology. Recordings done with Panasonic DMR-E60 and DMR-E10, compared side by side, show that the newer recorder is able to record and reproduced video images with better fidelity. The difference is not drastic, but as already seen with Sony’s recordings, it is evident as more faithful reproduction of the details in both bright and dark parts of the scenes with better and more vibrant colors. Pictures were checked on a Sony CRT monitor in order to avoid usual artifacts from LCD and plasma screens.

    - Another benefit of the new design is the use of the real TBC and 3D Digital Noise Reduction system. In the previous models, instead of the TBC, Panasonic was using a frame synchronizer (brought from their professional video mixers) to stabilize the incoming signal. While the synchronizers were doing a very good job, the real TBC in the new DVD recorders, together with the 3D DNR, effectively reduces jitters, stabilizes the signal and eliminates randomly generated noise and color irregularities with exceptional effectiveness. The signal from the tape can be detected and optimally processed automatically if this function is set to AUTO. It is important to mention that this 3D DNR is a powerful filter and if is set permanently on ON, used in a good VHS signal, it can add unwanted artifact on the recorded image. I would prefer to see multi stage settings (1, 2, 3…) instead of a simple ON/OFF. With the implemented TBC now it is possible to have several picture modes: Normal (default setting), Soft (soft picture with few video artifacts), Fine (sharper details) and Cinema (enhances detail in dark scenes). For further reduction of the picture degradation there is also an MPEG-DNR circuit that can be switched ON or OFF.

    - The biggest Panasonic sale point for this new breed of DVD recorders is the 500 lines LP recording. Whereas the conventional LP mode with the other DVD recorders is only 250 lines of horizontal resolution, the LP mode of the new Panasonic recorders are capturing the full 500 lines of horizontal resolution, exactly the same as SP mode. I was especially curious to check this claim.
    As many other users of this recorder already stated, the 500 lines claim is not empty words – we are really given the 500 lines of resolution. If you have talking heads on your screen, the recording would not be distinguished from the SP recording! With moderate movement of the camera the quality is very good. If you have extensive camera movement, as well as subject movement, the digital artifacts are noticeable on the recorded images. I am under the impression that they are more pronounced than with the old Panasonic generation.
    With the same token, I don’t think that it is fair to compare the quality of the LP recording with SP mode since Panasonic never claimed that the LP equals in quality to the SP.

    - The basic encoding software on the new machines is the same old one, modified to fit the new 12-bit architecture. It is not the stellar performer (tell me which one is),
    but there is little to complain. The new 12-bit technology breads new life in the recorded pictures giving an impression that we are dealing with a completely new software creation. Don’t be fooled with the better recording results – make an XP recording and you will experience the same occasional stuttering with lower quality DVD players, a very specific signature of the old 10 bit Panasonic encoding system.

    At the end I can say that the new Panasonic models are definitely better recorders and they are less expensive then the older ones. The quality surpasses anything that this company made up to date and I would not be surprised if this year it will dethrone Sony and will win the “European DVD recorder of the Year” title.

    For some tips and tricks with this recorder go to:

    https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=251884&start=90



    Panasonic DMR-E60


    Panasonic DMR-ES10


    The "electronic heart" in the DMR-ES10
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  2. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    - The new unit is also a sync filter, not a full TBC. It works on pass-through too, which is the only reasons I kept it. Good filter.
    - The DNR is only for playback. It still records blocks as always. The supposed DNR on recording is totally transparent, does nothing.
    - The 10-bit and 12-bit has done nothing visually. it's just marketing words.
    - LP mode is still blocky. But now it's blocks at 720 instead of 352. Selling point?

    As usual, a fine machine for 2-hour SP only!
    If you want better quality, more recording options (while retaining high quality), more features, and less marketing BS ... buy another machine.

    More "reviews" threads on the ES10:
    https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=270048
    https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=265528

    If some magazine gives this thing a "recorder of the year" award, then they're obviously lacking in testing criteria and their vision is suspect.
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  3. Hi Zorankarapancev...
    Thanks for the info. I agree with all your points.I've had the ES10 for 7 weeks now and love it. The picture quality in LP is stellar for anything other than fast action motion Its sweet having a 4 hour high resolution option for the documentaries I burn.
    The ES10 trully is an awesome machine!

    Technoid
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    Originally Posted by technoid
    The picture quality in LP is stellar for anything other than fast action motion
    The problem is a LOT of people need to be able to record fast action motion. I primarily use my DVD recorder to transfer old professional wrestling VHS tapes. For that, Panasonic LP is completely unwatchable. Even recording a show w/ less action (MXC) in LP off digital cable looked pretty awful on my old Panasonic.
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  5. The LP recording is not the substitute for the SP recording. For any program up to 3 Hrs the best option is to use the FR mode. Again, it is a mistake to compare the quality of the SP and LP modes of the recording.
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  6. I had one for about a month (sold it). I couldn't see any real difference at all in recorded image quality between the ES10, the E50 or the E55... and I had all three on hand at the same time to compare. The setup menu is nearly identical in all three units. The E55 and ES10 have the user switchable input video noise reduction, the E50 does not. The input video noise reduction in the JVC and the Toshiba units is more effective, from what I've seen. All three Panasonic units seem to have the same type of TBC/frame synch on the input side, too. The Normal, Soft, Cinema, etc. modes you mentioned are all playback modes... they are on the E50 and E55, as well. Also, I think the 12 bit D/A processor of the ES10 is on the playback side. The specs say "Video D/A Converter - 54MHz/12-bit"... that's digital to analog. I can't find anything to substantiate that there is a 12 bit A/D processor on the analog inputs. The full D1 LP mode is simply terrible unless the video is very nearly a still-life. It's great that they added DVD-RW recording in standard Video format, though.
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  7. the panny is horrible on anykind of LP ( i own the dmr-hs2) or anything over 2 hours and even in the 2 hour or flex mode i can still see artifact crap, that i would not get in another machine or using a pc capture card.

    How about this: Pannys lp speed is good for still images only, anything slightly moving will suffer.

    After countless post on here of the JVC dr-m10 deck, i went and purchased the newer model of the samething (jvc dr-m100 or dr-m100s).
    I am not joking when i say my jaw hit the floor after seeing how well this machine does on lp. Virtually no noise at all, 99% zero macroblocks. It was like night and day when i saw how well the JVC made the same 25 year old beta tape look when comparing it to when i had originally recorded it on the Panny deck

    you want a true machine the does an excellent job at lp, go with the jvc model instead
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  8. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by zorankarapancev
    The LP recording is not the substitute for the SP recording. For any program up to 3 Hrs the best option is to use the FR mode. Again, it is a mistake to compare the quality of the SP and LP modes of the recording.
    Your argument is flawed.

    Traditional LP is supposed to be a Half D1 version of SP. Everything is nearly half, and should therefore be equally as noise-free. The problem that the Panasonic encoder is terrible at lower resolutions. So they gave up with lower resolutions.

    Then the ES10 keeps the resolution the same, and then just robs it of bitrate. Okay, well, duh, macroblocks and artifacts ensue. That's digital video 101. A 2000-3000k 720x480 is a mistake a stupid newbie would make with their capture card on day 1. But once they see how bad it looks, you can guarantee they'll be looking and learning how to fix it.

    Why use LP to being with? Easy. Most traditional analog sources are under/around 352x480. They don't need 704/720 nor do they benefit from it. A good encoder, with adequate bitrate (2500-4500), should be able to produce excellent 352x480 video that is transparent to the source (some chips can even clean up the quality, like LSI does).

    FR mode is also a weird suggestion. FR is just time-based increments, nothing special. Whether you use the preset mode or FR to it, the problem exists both ways. Even the 3-hour FR is blocky like 4-hour (although not quite as bad, still very visible and pronounced).

    It is unacceptable to add more noise (and we're not talking nitpick noise, we're talking very obvious blocks and darkening effects) to an already-noisy signal. Especially when many want to archive video and preserve it for the future.

    If you want a Panasonic, resign yourself to the fact that it's a 2-hour machine only. It does fine there, although discs will stack up fast, and you'll be annoyed after a while at how much shelf space you'll be wasting for no reason.
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  9. Member vhelp's Avatar
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    Regarding LP and SP recording modes ...

    We seem to be moving in a wavy direction with this LP vs. SP
    feature in a dvd recorder unit. We should really try to focus
    or concentrate on SP features. Anything from an SP mode is
    probably the best heading to take when discussing such units.
    .
    I think that it might be that LP is not always focused on very
    well during the design stage of these units. Sure.., a good
    quality LP is a good feature to boast about, but it should not
    be the main course of promotion here. The reason why I say (feel)
    this is because sooner or later, the user will desire quality,
    moving past LP.., and if a user bases their purchase on LP, then
    its step backward. More and more, I see evidense of users
    requriing quality. I see them learning the true nature of their
    sources for archival. No thanks to *us* they are learning more
    and more about what makes or brakes a given video - quality'wise.
    User's are becoming more aware of video attributes.. such as noise;
    pixelation; bitrate; modes; Frame rate conversion; IVTC; Telecine;
    Interlace; Progressive; Codec; etc. etc. Like I said, more and
    more evidense is leading toward that conclusion. And, no thanks
    to us here on these forums.
    .
    LP should be looked at upon, as a mimic replacement of VCR LP. It's
    something that was thrown in to sell, sell, sell.. as LD said earlier.
    All marketing ploys to get us to empty out our wallets. And as usual,
    we do ..As I was saying.. LP should be looked at upon, as a mimic
    or replacement of VCR 's LP mode, nothing more. And, consider
    yourself lucky, should you be in possesion of a unit/brand that features
    better quality in LP recordings.
    .
    But, the main focus should always be the units native feature - SP.

    Still, good review zorankarapancev. You have a way with words and
    experssing them on paper (this topic) - good job

    -vhelp 3411
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  10. Those are good photos. If Panasonic deserves any prize, it should be for product design. I opened mine to see if you had removed any internal covers but that is not the case. The design is very clean and lends itself to very automated production.

    Only a few wires are visible including to the front panel on/off switch. There is no fan. The power supply only has a tiny heat sink but it does not feel very hot in standby. Only two ribbon cables visible. One from the power supply to the main board and one from the processor board to the drive.

    I checked out most of the visible IC's on the processor board.

    Samsung K4S643232H is a 2M x 32 memory
    Elpida DD5116ADTA is a 32M x 16 memory
    Burr-Brown PCM1780 is a 24 bit audio DAC
    AKM 5357ET is a 24 bit audio ADC

    The main board seems to have no active devices that are visible. I am a bit doubtful that the one big Panasonic IC could be the entire rest of the recorder so I will guess that if the little board is turned over there will be more parts.
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  11. Hi Bix...
    For your situation you could use the ES10 in FR mode set at three hours.I did a test last week and recorded a segment from one of my old VHS superbowl games in this mode, and you were hard pressed to see anything in the way of macro blocks or other artifacts.

    Technoid


    Originally Posted by Bix
    Originally Posted by technoid
    The picture quality in LP is stellar for anything other than fast action motion
    The problem is a LOT of people need to be able to record fast action motion. I primarily use my DVD recorder to transfer old professional wrestling VHS tapes. For that, Panasonic LP is completely unwatchable. Even recording a show w/ less action (MXC) in LP off digital cable looked pretty awful on my old Panasonic.
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  12. Member ejai's Avatar
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    Thanks Zorankarapancev for this thread. I was waiting until I saw a review that I could trust, and now I am satisfied. I plan to pick one up this week. Most reviews I've seen have similar findings that you have introduced here.

    Thanks for your fair assessment.
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  13. Originally Posted by mazinz
    the panny is horrible on anykind of LP ( i own the dmr-hs2) or anything over 2 hours and even in the 2 hour or flex mode i can still see artifact crap, that i would not get in another machine or using a pc capture card.

    How about this: Pannys lp speed is good for still images only, anything slightly moving will suffer.
    Yikes! ...I cant speak for the DMR-HS2 but the new ES10 has a great high resolution LP mode that works very well for anything other than high action scenes.And for those situations my initial tests have shown very good results using the FR mode set at three hours

    Technoid
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  14. I had hoped to resolve whether the ES-10 has a 12 bit input ADC by flipping over the the video processor board.



    The Elpida S6432AFTA is another 2M x 32 memory
    The Samsung K9F6408UOC is 8M x 8 flash memory
    The M 445 remains unidentified but the "M" logo belongs to Microchip which makes microcontrollers and DAC's but not video ADC's.
    The Sharp 025GN01 remains unidentified but bears some resemblance to their voltage regulators.
    The OKI R27V802F remains unidentified. They do make display controllers.

    One chip has BU2365FV with no manufacturer identified.
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  15. Member ejai's Avatar
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    I've just received my DMR-ES10 yesterday and used it for several hours and I'm still up in the air in determining if it was a sound purchase or not. I have noticed that the chroma effect that was present in my E50 does not seem to be an issue with this recorder.

    The image is even sharper with this recorder and the colors are more vivid. Other than that I have to do more testing, All-n-all The purchase seems to be worth it. I'll know for sure after I test it a little more.
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  16. Member ejai's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by zorankarapancev
    It is important to mention that this 3D DNR is a powerful filter and if is set permanently on ON, used in a good VHS signal, it can add unwanted artifact on the recorded image. I would prefer to see multi stage settings (1, 2, 3…) instead of a simple ON/OFF. With the implemented TBC now it is possible to have several picture modes: Normal (default setting), Soft (soft picture with few video artifacts), Fine (sharper details) and Cinema (enhances detail in dark scenes). For further reduction of the picture degradation there is also an MPEG-DNR circuit that can be switched ON or OFF.
    Please clarify, are you saying that these types of switches exsists in this unit or are you speaking in terms of a wishlist?

    I agree that a selection switch indicating sharper or softer images would be just what most of us need.
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  17. Member ejai's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by zorankarapancev
    If you have extensive camera movement, as well as subject movement, the digital artifacts are noticeable on the recorded images. I am under the impression that they are more pronounced than with the old Panasonic generation.

    At the end I can say that the new Panasonic models are definitely better recorders and they are less expensive then the older ones. The quality surpasses anything that this company made up to date and I would not be surprised if this year it will dethrone Sony and will win the “European DVD recorder of the Year” title.
    One thing I noticed that was stated by Lordsmurf in an earlier post and that is the macro blocks. I find that they are more noticeable in LP mode than in the older machine. This does not indicate a good quality picture in my opinion. With my E50 I hardly ever noticed artifacts of this type in the video I captured.

    I admit the picture sharpness and rich color is outstanding, but the LP video noise does make me a little uneasy. I doubt if this machine will dethrone any recorder.
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  18. Member Marvingj's Avatar
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    I also brought a Panny ES-10, I notice that the picture is crisp, rich but not in LP Mode ( there are macroblock apparently). But the Filters are indeed great for pass thru. Still will have to do more testing......
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  19. Member ejai's Avatar
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    It seems they sharpened the picture but commonsense would tell you that you will have more noise and should work on filtering it out. (Sharper image=More noise). Panasonic seems to have dropped the ball on this one.

    I'm still testing it out in an attempt to be fair. My other hand is on the phone in readiness to return it.
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  20. Member GreyDeath's Avatar
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    From Lord Smurf's and other's reviews, and looking at the bank account, I finally decided to try the DMR ES-10 to fix flagging problems that I had with some really bad tapes the JVC 9911 couldn't fix with it's built-in Line TBC.

    I bought a unit locally, since if it didn't help I could return it and get my moolah back. Under $200 with tax and all.

    Hooked it up, put in a tape I had major problems with before and... it was FREAKIN' AMAZING!!!! The image was exceptionally stable whereas it was flagging left and right before. It not only worked on the flagging issues at the top, but all throughout the picture. Noted, there were some color issues that another poster mentioned, but that I can deal with with my NLE Color Corrector, if I cared enough, it is already a crappy tape to begin with.

    I also found the picture to be a little darker on capture than I liked, so I set the Black Level to both Lighter in the Input and Output settings (Default is Darker/Lighter I believe, maybe vise versa).

    It doesn't seem to have any controls for whatever stablization it's doing, which at least the JVC 9911 has, to fiddle with. But at this point, I don't care, if it's fixing the picture using magic and pixies, so much the better.

    I did have to deactivate the TBC on the JVC unit for it to work though since it seemed to conflict with the Panasonic. I have noticed a slightly more softness and jitter than with the JVC TBC on, but it's a fair trade-off to remove the flagging, which I find much more annoying.

    All in all, a good buy. I'm not sure how well it works with a regular VCR, but if it works as well there, you need not go out to buy a JVC. You still may need to buy the TBC-1000 to have the clean capture to the computer though.

    The bad news is now... I have to go back and reauthor some of my DVD's... CURSE YOU, LORD SMURF!!! Just kidding. Thanks for pointing us to this fine machine.
    "*sigh* Warned you, we tried. Listen, you did not. Now SCREWED, we all will be!" ~Yoda
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  21. ejai,

    For the adjustments of the picture quality and the Line-in NR noise reduction filter go to page 25 of the Operating Instructions Manual.

    As I mention earlier, for the videos with extensive camera movement, as well as subject movement, the digital artifacts are more pronounced than with the older Panasonic generation. That is why I pointed out that the LP recording on these new models is not a substitute for the SP mode. For any program up to 3 Hrs the best option is to use the FR mode. Again, it is a mistake to compare the quality of the SP and LP modes of the recording. The LP recording mode is good only for certain video images.

    My prediction that Panasonic has a good chance to dethrone Sony this year is NOT based on the LP recording quality. As far as I know, the results of recording quality tests are based on XP and SP mode. According to this criteria, Panasonic has approached or maybe even surpassed the Sony’s quality (I don’t have the Sony recorder anymore to make a direct comparison, but I speak from what I remembered to be the image quality from that machine).

    At the end I want to make clear to any member of this forum that the quality of the new Panasonic models surpass anything that this company has produced to this date and its purchase should not be based exclusively on the LP recording mode. If you are looking for the DVD recorder that will give you an excellent picture quality up to 3 Hrs, this model should be first on your check list, especially with the price tag that it wears … it’s hard to resist.
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    "12-bit" and all may sound pretty on paper, but as others here are seeing, the unit hasn't fixed past errors, and it may have just made a few of them worse.

    Pretty much all machines look alike at XP and SP mode. You have to be super anal to see "differences" from one line to the next (and most of them are probably imagined). Only a super flaw (certain random LiteOn green shifts, for example) can screw it up.

    If anything, Panasonic has long had noise issues even on SP mode, but it's so minimal it's not even worth sniffling over.

    FR'ing to 3-hour is almost as bad as 4-hour (LP). 720x480 and REALLY hurting for bitrate. No amount of magic bits can overcome inadequate allocation. Not gonna happen.

    There are no adjustments to the NR. It's on or off. If you stick you eye really close to the tv set, and stare, you can see a small improvement going from on to off. But that's it.

    This unit is $200, and can be outperformed by the much less expensive Pioneer models that carry a $150-175 tag, or even some of the older LiteOn's that carry a $95-150 tag. It lost at price wars too.

    Purchase need be based on what you want to do with it.
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  23. Member GreyDeath's Avatar
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    Oops, maybe I should have posted my review for the ES-10 in a different thread. Like Lord Smurf said in a different posting, I'm using the Pany unit as a pass-through only.
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  24. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by GreyDeath
    Oops, maybe I should have posted my review for the ES-10 in a different thread. Like Lord Smurf said in a different posting, I'm using the Pany unit as a pass-through only.
    Yeah, it's a really great filter box. It lies somewhere between my VCR output and the input of a better DVD recorder.

    You should post some images of what you did over in the restoration area. I have been meaning to, but just havent had time.
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  25. Member GreyDeath's Avatar
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    We have a restoration area?

    I'm such a noob... ;P

    If I can, I'll put a link to some AVIs to show the difference between having the ES-10 in the chain, and without.

    So, from what some of the messages said, there's a Pioneer model that can do the same thing and is cheaper? (sorry, short attention span)
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  26. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    No, the Pioneer comments were only on recording quality.

    What you and I are referring to, regarding the sync filters magical ability ("pixies" :P ) to clean up the flagging/tearing issues, as well as unstable stuff within the middle of the image. I've seen it to, it was magic on about 6 tapes I previously though impossible to fix.

    Restoration forum is here:
    https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=43

    The sync filters on the Panasonic is the only thing to date that seems to correct the image like that. Nothing else works, not even the excellent JVC S-VHS TBC (which choked on the 6 tapes I had that were really bad).
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  27. Member ejai's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by zorankarapancev
    For the adjustments of the picture quality and the Line-in NR noise reduction filter go to page 25 of the Operating Instructions Manual..
    Thanks, I was looking for these controls in the recording section, not playback. I would love to see this type of control on pre not post recording. If we had this kind of control I feel most people here would be extremely pleased.

    As I said before I am continuing to test the unit for my own purposes. I must admit it does as you said, it cleans up the incoming signal quite nicely.
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  28. I would love to see this type of control on pre not post recording. If we had this kind of control I feel most people here would be extremely pleased.
    It is on pre recording.
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  29. Line In NR is pre,



    Picture mode is post,

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  30. Member ejai's Avatar
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    Sorry I didn't read it fully. I am very impressed with the video color. It's the best I've seem yet.
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