Dual layer 8.5GB DVD-R DL Disk Launched

[ice-berg]

http://www.m-kagaku.co.jp/english/newsreleases/2005/20050216-1.html

(TOKYO, JAPAN) Mitsubishi Kagaku Media Co., Ltd. (MKM) today announced the world's first dual layer DVD-R disc made to DL standards to be launched this spring.

"Sales of DVD recording drives show tremendous increases worldwide," says Shigeru Tamura, MKM Chief Information Officer. "And industry estimates*2 put demand for DVD discs in 2005 at some 2.5 billion units, which is a year-on-year increase of 79%." As users record more images and movies, data density increases and people ask for greater capacity DVD recording discs. To meet this demand, MKM launched the world's first double layer DVD+R discs in May 2004, which were well received in the market. Now, MKM will be the first one to launch a single sided dual layer media in the DVD-R format, which is the most popular format.

With development of this new disc, capacity of DVD-R discs is now double*3 that of conventional discs of this type. When using these new discs in compatible DVD drives, not only large amounts of data can be recorded continuously on the discs, but also the discs can be used in conventional DVD players of PC DVD-ROM drives to playback the recordings.

NOTES:
*1 As of February 16, 2005
*2 Japan Recording-Media Industries Association
*3 Compared to conventional DVD-R capacities of 4.7 GB, MKM's new disc offers 8.5 GB capacity.

* Data must be recorded on this product with a single-sided dual-layer DVD-R compatible drive. Other drives cannot be used.

(Characteristics)
Manufacturing of single-sided double-layer discs requires a high level of production technology to lay down the L0 and L1 layers, coat them with recording material, and place spacers between them. MKM uses proprietary DYN-AZO recording material for recording DVD discs, and application of the technology we developed for this organic recording material enabled MKM to develop single-sided double-layer recording media. In addition, as our advanced stamper technology, combined with ultra-precise substrate molding technology, achieves high writing speed and low error recording for superior recording and playback compatibility.

[lordsmurf]

I wanna buy, I wanna buy...
Now the only question is "when"...

[Poplar]

..and more important, how much???

[ricky1756]

i figure i'll plan ahead, if i take a secong mortage out, i'll be able to buy a few of them when they're released

[RAAGAAman]

Whoopee! Do you think that its going to be any better that DVD+R DL? I don't think so. The compatibility will probably be worse. You have a
DVD-R Book Code on a Dual layer disk. You think that Players were confused before. Look out.

RG

[lordsmurf]

Players have never been confused by DVD-R media. In fact, it still leads over DVD+R media, regardless of the booktype (+R or ROM).

Compatibility will likely be very good, and media prices will most likely be $6-12 each like the DVD+R/DL media.

[waheed]

At the moment, the only dvd burner that im aware of can burn DVD-R Dual layer discs is the NEC 3520.

The real question is when will companies produces dual layer discs in high volumes and provide them at a reasonbale lower price people will pay for.

Or will companies be spending more time and money investing in the upcoming Blue Ray/HD DVD format.

[lordsmurf]

The Pioneer 109, NEC 3520, and rebadges.
More are sure to follow soon.

BluRay/HDDVD has zero affect.
We have DVD players, not BD/HD players.
We need blank DVD media.

[Gen-An]

PX-716A can burn 2x DVD-R DL with firmware 1.04 (out now), and fw 1.05 is supposed to up the speed to either 4x or 6x.

[kenowell]

Nice,and i just ordered a nec 3520 yesterday

[tommyoz]

I already have my Pioneer 109 ready, just waiting for the disc.

[budz]

Gen-An wrote

PX-716A can burn 2x DVD-R DL with firmware 1.04 (out now), and fw 1.05 is supposed to up the speed to either 4x or 6x.

Yup, Yup!!!! Plextor 716 will be able to burn 4-6x DVD-R DUAL LAYER with future firmware upgrades. When the prices of DUAL LAYER media become reasonable is when I will purchase the PLEXTOR 716 drive. After a rocky start the drive is now having some good stable burns according to the PLEXTOR FORUM at CDFREAKS.COM. Until then my BENQ 1620 rules! :P

[MpegEncoder]

Players have never been confused by DVD-R media. In fact, it still leads over DVD+R media, regardless of the booktype (+R or ROM).

Compatibility will likely be very good, and media prices will most likely be $6-12 each like the DVD+R/DL media.

If you're paying $6-$12 for +R DL you're getting taken. You can get them for around $4 or $5

[TOpclass]

where can you get them at all

[lordsmurf]

Players have never been confused by DVD-R media. In fact, it still leads over DVD+R media, regardless of the booktype (+R or ROM).

Compatibility will likely be very good, and media prices will most likely be $6-12 each like the DVD+R/DL media.

If you're paying $6-$12 for +R DL you're getting taken. You can get them for around $4 or $5

Where can I buy MKM (Mitsubishi) DVD+R DL for $4-5 ??

[loconess]

amazon price fluctuate a little bit (a little high as of now)


currently:
Price: $26.94
Mail-In Rebates: $8.00
Price After Rebates: $18.94 (3pk)

[rr6966]

I'm excited! Can't wait to see DVD-R DL at around $3 per disc. Then it will be interesting if we ever get standalone DVD recorders that take these. I don't think we will see blue ray or HD-DVD recorders at reasonable prices for several years after the players come out. I think it will be a similar to the time line that occurred for DVD.

[RAAGAAman]

Lordsmurf said: Players have never been confused by DVD-R media. In fact, it still leads over DVD+R media, regardless of the booktype (+R or ROM).

I don't agree with your accessment. There is no such thing as a DVD-R disk with <18% reflectivity which is what DVD-9 disks have. The Scenario - I am a DVD player and I see "DVD-R" bookcode. I adjust my detector to read for a disk that has higher reflectivity. This means that I might have read issues. Also, how many DVD-R disks have a Layer jump?
No, I think the compatibility will be as bad as a DVD+R DL disk with a DVD+R DL bookcode which I think was ~40%. I hope I am wrong.

RG

[Noahtuck]

The Pioneer 109, NEC 3520, and rebadges.
More are sure to follow soon.

BluRay/HDDVD has zero affect.
We have DVD players, not BD/HD players.
We need blank DVD media.

What, if any, diff. is there between the NEC 3520 & the NEC 3520A ?
I just got a NEC 3520A today and i really have not looked into them at all...
I'm gonna try some DL next week.

[Edmund Blackadder]

Lordsmurf said: Players have never been confused by DVD-R media. In fact, it still leads over DVD+R media, regardless of the booktype (+R or ROM).

I don't agree with your accessment. There is no such thing as a DVD-R disk with <18% reflectivity which is what DVD-9 disks have. The Scenario - I am a DVD player and I see "DVD-R" bookcode. I adjust my detector to read for a disk that has higher reflectivity. This means that I might have read issues. Also, how many DVD-R disks have a Layer jump?
No, I think the compatibility will be as bad as a DVD+R DL disk with a DVD+R DL bookcode which I think was ~40%. I hope I am wrong.
RG

OK, here's my take on this issue:

First of all, I have read somewhere, perhaps even in one of the Pioneer's statements, that DVD-R DL booktype will be recorded by default as DVD-ROM, to maximize the compatibility. It will not be DVD-R DL booktype.

Second, even so, I don't think DVD-R DL discs will be any more compatible than DVD+R DL's recorded with DVD-ROM booktype.

I have achieved great results using my methods of recording to DVD+R DL. However, there's one general conclusion I came up with:

Even if you record your DVD+R DL with a maximum compatibility method (such as DVD-ROM booktype and RecordNow 7.2 burning software in Data Mode), you pretty much need a DVD player that is able to read 2x speed DVD-RW media without any problems. If you have a player that cannot play 2x DVD-RW's without issues, there's a very slim chance that it will read recordable DL discs, be that "+" or "-". It's a reflectivity issue. But if you can read 2x DVD-RW's then you should be fine with properly recorded DL media.

Just my 2 kopeks.

[-jsl-]

I don't agree with your accessment. There is no such thing as a DVD-R disk with <18% reflectivity which is what DVD-9 disks have.
RG

Actually DVD-R DL specs allow >16 % reflectivity (same as DVD+R DL), see here. DVD-ROM DL specs allow in comparison for a R14H value of 18-30 %.

First of all, I have read somewhere, perhaps even in one of the Pioneer's statements, that DVD-R DL booktype will be recorded by default as DVD-ROM, to maximize the compatibility. It will not be DVD-R DL booktype.

DVD-R DL will use the same book type as single layer DVD-R, here is a screenshot of a DVD-R DL burned with a ND-3520.

Anyway, taking a DVD-R DL and a DVD+R DL from the same manufacturer, authored and burned in the same way, my prediction is that the DVD-R DL (with DVD-R book type) will have a better compatibility than the DVD+R DL burned with DVD+R DL book type but worse than the DVD+R DL burned with DVD-ROM book type (that basically all DL burners support). One thing is sure though: This topic will be debated here many times in the future

[Edmund Blackadder]

DVD-R DL will use the same book type as single layer DVD-R, here is a screenshot of a DVD-R DL burned with a ND-3520.

Are you sure this burn was made after the DVD-R DL specs were finalized for good? I could have sworn that I've read some official statement that DVD-R DL will be recorded with DVD-ROM booktype. Perhaps that's what Pioneer A09 will do with DVD-R DL media? I hope so.

Anyway, taking a DVD-R DL and a DVD+R DL from the same manufacturer, authored and burned in the same way, my prediction is that the DVD-R DL (with DVD-R book type) will have a better compatibility than the DVD+R DL burned with DVD+R DL book type but worse than the DVD+R DL burned with DVD-ROM book type (that basically all DL burners support). One thing is sure though: This topic will be debated here many times in the future

If all of what you wrote above turns out to be true then that means that I will continue to use DVD+R DL for my DL burns. It would be too bad for DVD Forum if they are stupid enough to make a booktype anything other than DVD-ROM for DL media.

[-jsl-]

Are you sure this burn was made after the DVD-R DL specs were finalized for good? I could have sworn that I've read some official statement that DVD-R DL will be recorded with DVD-ROM booktype. Perhaps that's what Pioneer A09 will do with DVD-R DL media? I hope so.

Well from what I can see also the latest MtFuji6 proposal indicates that the book type will be pre-recorded with DVD-R (0010b).

[mattyboy]

_R,+R who cares anymore most dvd player play either, and most dvd burners set the booktype. So it doesnt matter.

[Edmund Blackadder]

_R,+R who cares anymore most dvd player play either, and most dvd burners set the booktype. So it doesnt matter.

Except for one thing. The most of "naive" DVD players will most likely think this way:

1) DVD-R: "OK, I know what this is - it's a recorded DVD5"
2) DVD+R: "OK, I know what this is - it's a recorded DVD5"
3) DVD+R with DVD-ROM booktype: "OK, it's a pressed DVD5"
4) DVD+R DL with DVD-ROM booktype: "OK, it's a pressed DVD9"
5) DVD+R DL with DVD+R DL booktype: "What the hell is this???"
6) DVD-R DL with DVD-R booktype: "OK, I know what this is - it's a recorded DVD5"

You see where I'm going? Most of the players will know that DVD-R can only be up to 4.7GB. Therefore DVD-R booktype could end up being a disaster for DVD-R DL format. I hope I'm wrong, but that's just what could end up happening.

On the other hand all of the DVD players know that DVD-ROM can be DVD9, and so will play recorded DL disc with DVD-ROM booktype with mostly no problems. That's why I think DVD Forum better have a DVD-ROM booktype, or DVD+RW Alliance will actually take a permanent lead in compatibility of DL format. I wouldn't even see the point of releasing DVD-R DL if it's deliberately doomed by DVD Forum (with the engraved DVD-R booktype) to be less compatible than DVD+R DL with DVD-ROM booktype.

[lordsmurf]

I don't think booktype acknowledges size.
DVD5, DVD9, same difference.

Very often:
2) DVD+R: "What the hell is this???"
Less and less, but still happens quite a bit.

[Edmund Blackadder]

DVD-R DL will use the same book type as single layer DVD-R, here is a screenshot of a DVD-R DL burned with a ND-3520.

Actually, looking at this screenshot again, it shows that this disc has not been burned yet, it's blank, so this is not a proof yet that DVD-R DL will be burned with DVD-R booktype. Blank DVD+R DL will report DVD+R DL booktype as well and only later recorded with DVD-ROM booktype on compatible drives such as Pioneer. So, we will have to see the info from the actual recorded disc.

[lordsmurf]

DVD-R DL will use the same book type as single layer DVD-R, here is a screenshot of a DVD-R DL burned with a ND-3520.

Actually, looking at this screenshot again, it shows that this disc has not been burned yet, it's blank, so this is not a proof yet that DVD-R DL will be burned with DVD-R booktype. Blank DVD+R DL will report DVD+R DL booktype as well and only later recorded with DVD-ROM booktype on compatible drives such as Pioneer. So, we will have to see the info from the actual recorded disc.

Nice catch. 8)

[Edmund Blackadder]

Very often:
2) DVD+R: "What the hell is this???"

No, more like: 2) DVD+R: "Oh, it's a rival format, I don't feel like playing it!!!"

At least it's that way on my Toshiba D-R1 recorder which is certainly new enough to know about "+" formats. And I understand why, because Toshiba is a main founder of the original DVD format. So they don't want "+" discs to be even played back on their recorders. But after I set the booktype to DVD-ROM it plays both DVD5 and DVD9 "+" media without any problems. And what's even better, it loads it much faster than "-" media, thinking that those "+" discs are pressed DVD's.

I think this Toshiba D-R1 will be a very good survival test for the upcoming DVD-R DL.

[-jsl-]

Actually, looking at this screenshot again, it shows that this disc has not been burned yet, it's blank, so this is not a proof yet that DVD-R DL will be burned with DVD-R booktype.

From my understanding you won't be able to change the book type in the recording process because it's pre-recorded, just like you can't do it for single layer DVD-R. But I guess time will tell if I'm right...